Jaime wielding Dawn?

[cgrav]

Unless the Daynes forged Dawn, someone had it before them. Unknown Origins seems like a theme among the greatswords, so maybe that information will turn out to be important.

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

Unless the Daynes forged Dawn, someone had it before them. Unknown Origins seems like a theme among the greatswords, so maybe that information will turn out to be important.

I'm pretty sure that the Daynes forged Dawn. 

[cgrav]

World of Ice and Fire says its "origins are lost to legend", but I suppose that doesn't exclude the Daynes.

I can see the origin of the valyrian and other swords being revealed in some meaningful way. It's a gap in our knowledge, they are a limited resources that Westeros would like to make its own supply of, and that Samwell is looking into dragonglass/steel at the Citadel. Could be one of those things where swords' origins and fates are one in the same.

[OuttaOldtown]

On 7/23/2016 at 1:25 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I see, sorry it was my mistake. I thought that you meant that being a Dayne wasn't obligatory. My mistake.

Does this really sound like a boy on the verge of becoming one of the greatest fighters in Westeros? Going back to the time of Nymeria we only have three confirmed SotM's. My point is it that it is indeed a matter of being worthy to wield Dawn, 

The rains did not let up. They rode through woods and fields, fording swollen streams where the rushing water came up to the bellies of their horses. Arya pulled up the hood of her cloak and hunched down, sodden and shivering but determined not to falter. Merrit and Mudge were soon coughing as bad as Watty, and poor Ned seemed to grow more miserable with every mile.

“When I wear my helm, the rain beats against the steel and gives me headaches,” he complained. “But when I take it off, my hair gets soaked and sticks to my face and in my mouth.”

“You have a knife,” Gendry suggested. “If your hair annoys you so much, shave your bloody head.

” He doesn’t like Ned. The squire seemed nice enough to Arya; maybe a little shy, but goodnatured. She had always heard that Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey. “How long have you been Lord Beric’s squire?” she asked, to take his mind from his misery.

“He took me for his page when he espoused my aunt.” He coughed. “I was seven, but when I turned ten he raised me to squire. I won a prize once, riding at rings.”

“I never learned the lance, but I could beat you with a sword,” said Arya. “Have you killed anyone?” That seemed to startle him.

“I’m only twelve.”

I killed a boy when I was eight, Arya almost said, but she thought she’d better not. “You’ve been in battles, though.”

“Yes.” He did not sound very proud of it. “I was at the Mummer’s Ford. When Lord Beric fell into the river, I dragged him up onto the bank so he wouldn’t drown and stood over him with my sword. I never had to fight, though. He had a broken lance sticking out of him, so no one bothered us. When we regrouped, Green Gergen helped pull his lordship back onto a horse.”

[TheSTARKempire]

Jaime is not one of the main characters since the time Martin started conceiving ideas and characters for asoiaf series. Notwithstanding his fans' constant clamour about his "greatness" and "honour", he remains a secondary character which martin decided to give more book-time to fill in chapters in AFFC and some in ASOS.  It is thus unthinkable to see jaime wielding such a significant sword in the realm of Westeros.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

48 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Does this really sound like a boy on the verge of becoming one of the greatest fighters in Westeros? Going back to the time of Nymeria we only have three confirmed SotM's. My point is it that it is indeed a matter of being worthy to wield Dawn, 

Sure I agree on that, It needs a worthy Dayne to wield Dawn and be the Sword of the Morning and if there isn't one the sword is left in Starfall waiting.

[OuttaOldtown]

 

On 7/23/2016 at 9:14 PM, cgrav said:

World of Ice and Fire says its "origins are lost to legend", but I suppose that doesn't exclude the Daynes.

I can see the origin of the valyrian and other swords being revealed in some meaningful way. It's a gap in our knowledge, they are a limited resources that Westeros would like to make its own supply of, and that Samwell is looking into dragonglass/steel at the Citadel. Could be one of those things where swords' origins and fates are one in the same.

The history of Dorne beyond the past 1000 years gives us very little to go on, never mind the forging of Dawn which likely pre-dates Starfall. Perhaps Darkstar will enlighten the readers with far more information on Dayne history:

“My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days,” he complained. “Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?”

[HowlandReed'sWorth]

I believe you're right. Didn't the legend say the original Dayne founded Starfall where the "Star fell" from which was used to forge Dawn?

[OuttaOldtown]

22 minutes ago, HowlandReed'sWorth said:

I believe you're right. Didn't the legend say the original Dayne founded Starfall where the "Star fell" from which was used to forge Dawn?

Yes, legend has it that a Dayne followed a shooting star and found that stone which was used to forge Dawn, that's where Starfall was built..

[cgrav]

7 minutes ago, HowlandReed'sWorth said:

I believe you're right. Didn't the legend say the original Dayne founded Starfall where the "Star fell" from which was used to forge Dawn?

Seems there's conflicting information then, if both of those facts come from WoIF. At the same time, these origin stories may be apocryphal - did the "first Dayne" give himself the name Dayne? Why were his parents not Daynes? 

So I guess Either Dawn was forged from a different star and the "first Dayne" took it as fate to follow the path of another one, or the book is just inconsistent. 

Of course a Dayne origin for Dawn also rules it out as Lightbringer, so I guess we have to decide which theory we like better. I personally prefer the one that leaves Dawn's origins unknown for now. 

[Masha]

On 7/15/2016 at 2:11 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I may be a die hard Jon fan but I don't see why the Daynes should see him worthy and give him their heirloom of 10000 years.

I agree about Jon. During thousands of years, as previous Kings and a prominent family, Daynes intermarried throughout Westeros, probably Martells have some Dayne blood from hundred of years ago or so, so do Targs, probably other prominent families too. But its not like Daynes just lend their sword to any worthy man just because his grand-grand-grand-grand mother might have had some Dayne's blood, that person actually has to carry Daynes name to earn Dawn and be called the Sword of the Morning. Gerald as a Dayne is in contention but not earned it yet because it wasn't specific that Daynes of Starfall hold exclusive right to the sword, Daynes of Hermitage as a cadet branch have the right to be considered too.

But I am also not so sure that Daynes and Sword of Dawn will be important in overall ending of the book. They are part of world building, a play on Arthurian legend/proto-Excalibur type story which ends up going nowhere, since Arthur dies and fails in his duties and his sword is returned (kind of) to Stone (home) waiting for a new better candidate to pull it out.

Importance of Daynes is only for the background of the story, like why Arthur chose to be there at TOJ and not with Rhaegar, is he still alive and an eyewitness or completely 100% dead, whats the deal with Ashara, is she dead or not, is she a mother to anyone living or just a dead stillborn baby, why Gerald is so angry and what does he knows that makes him angry. 

If there going to be a weapon (like Nissa Nissa for Azur Azai story), I believe that its not going to be actual physical sword, more like Dragons, or a person, or something. Valyrian weapons will be important, to stay alive and have a fighting chance against the Others, since regular weapons might well be sticks against them, but just a weaponry perhaps a game-changer to turn the tide but not a final weapon to kill off the boss.

[Lord Martin]

I am so glad I found this thread as I have been thinking about this a lot lately.  

I think @ravenous reader very much is on the right path with these quotes here:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

It had been years since his last vigil. And I was younger then, a boy of fifteen years. He had worn no armor then, only a plain white tunic. The sept where he'd spent the night was not a third as large as any of the Great Sept's seven transepts. Jaime had laid his sword across the Warrior's knees, piled his armor at his feet, and knelt upon the rough stone floor before the altar. When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody. "All knights must bleed, Jaime," Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. "Blood is the seal of our devotion." With dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew. He never felt it. A boy knelt; a knight rose. The Young Lion, not the Kingslayer.

But that was long ago, and the boy was dead.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

I fully agree with @ravenous reader that the transitive property here applies to Jaime "shall have [Dawn].

I also enjoyed this quote:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

"I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking with a piss with the right.

But it steered me in another direction, toward another one handed warrior, Qhorin Halfhand.  Conisder these quotes:

When Jon and LC Mormont are awaiting Qhorin, the chapter states: "Dawn and Qhorin Halfhand arrived together" (Jon 6, ACOK), "Dawn had broken when Jon had stepped from the ten besides Qhorin Halfhand." (Jon 5, ACOK).  

So the concept of a left handed warrior and Dawn have some connection in the text.

But there are many other connections between Jaime and a white sword.  Consider the name of the Tower where Jaime is Lord Commander is the "White Sword Tower."  It is here that he rejects Cersei, all dressed in white and gives Brienne Oathkeeper, a red and black sword forged when Ice was split in two.  Jaime is literally giving up his dark sword and the temptation of his sister in order to remain the Lord Commander in the White Sword Tower.  

The symbolism between Jaime, Brienne and Swords is all folded in on itself over and over.  Recall that tale of Galladon of Morne, a knight so perfect that the Maiden herself fell in love with him and gave him a sword of such power, nothing could stop it.  Galladon only unsheathed that sword three times and never against a mortal man.  The one instance we are told of this perfect knight using his sword was to slay a dragon.  Jaime of course slew a "dragon" when he killed the Mad King.  Much is made of Brienne's maidenhood as well which could suggest that at some point she will repay the favor and give Jaime a powerful sword in return.  

Consider also, that Brienne saves her own life by agreeing to hunt down Jaime by calling out the word "Sword" when Lady Stoneheart is about to hang her.  

[ravenous reader]

Hi @Lord Martin,

It's nice to hear from you!  I never get tired of discussing the complexities of Jaime's psychic and symbolic make-up,  and playing with the intricate reflections of the text, something you too seem to share.

Funny that you mention Ser Galladon and his personified sword and lover 'The Just Maid'; I was 'just' mentioning that reference on a thread to do with sword personification and the person-as-sword metonymy, specifically to do with speculation of 'Theon as Ice', but of course I couldn't help discussing Jaime!  See here.

I'll have more to add in a bit...need to pop away.

P.S. It's funny that Jaime gave up his '(dark) sister' Cersei in the act of gifting Brienne his dark sword (by the way, I would love Jaime to be the child of Aerys, so many delectable ironies there!)

 

[Lord Martin]

I also wanted to mention Jaime's fever dream on the Weirwood stump.  Here are some key excerpts:

Quote

 

Naked and alone he stood, surrounded by enemies, with stone walls all around him pressing close. The Rock, he knew. He could feel the immense weight of it above his head. He was home. He was home and whole.

He held his right hand up and flexed his fingers to feel the strength in them. It felt as good as sex. As good as swordplay. Four fingers and a thumb. He had dreamed that he was maimed, but it wasn't so. Relief made him dizzy. My hand, my good hand. Nothing could hurt him so long as he was whole.

Around him stood a dozen tall dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. "Who are you?" he demanded of them. "What business do you have in Casterly Rock?"

They gave no answer, only prodded him with the points of their spears. He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself. Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him. Jaime tried to halt, but their spears prodded him on. If only I had my sword, nothing could harm me.

 

I will later return to the "dozen tall dark figures."  But note that Jaime is calling for a sword. 

The dream continues:

Quote

The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. "What place is this?"

"Your place." The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who'd lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father's voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they'd made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.

"Sister, why has Father brought us here?"

"Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness." Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.

"Stay with me," Jaime pleaded. "Don't leave me here alone." But they were leaving. "Don't leave me in the dark!" Something terrible lived down here. "Give me a sword, at least."

"I gave you a sword," Lord Tywin said.

It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . .

From behind came a great splash. Jaime whirled toward the sound . . . but the faint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth, her hands bound in heavy chains. "I swore to keep you safe," the wench said stubbornly. "I swore an oath." Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. "Ser. Please. If you would be so good."

The steel links parted like silk. "A sword," Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. In this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne's sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.

"The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you."

"Sister!" he shouted. "Stay with me. Stay!" There was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps.

Brienne moved her longsword back and forth, watching the silvery flames shift and shimmer. Beneath her feet, a reflection of the burning blade shone on the surface of the flat black water. She was as tall and strong as he remembered, yet it seemed to Jaime that she had more of a woman's shape now.

 

So we have Jaime leaving what he knows of Casterly Rock and being pushed into the abyss, the dark nothing.  He is being told by his ancestors that this is his place.  This is quite literally Jaime wrestling with being parted from his Lannister heritage.  Cersei's departure and taking the torch with her is a major symbol of this.  Cersei and Tywin are so very Lannister, very lion and they are leaving him.

Jaime again begs for a sword and Tywin claims he gave him one.  Note this dream occurs before Jaime is given Oathkeeper.  It is a nice bit of foreshadowing.  And then note the color of the flame that Jaime picks up.  It does not burn red or even golden like house Lannister, it is Pale and Silvery-Blue.  

Brienne's sword then takes on the same flame.  This symbolizes Brienne's growing influence over Jaime and in many ways how she is replacing Cersei as the woman in Jaime's life.  

Then the dream concludes with Jaime being confronted by his guilt in the form of his sword brothers:

Quote

 

"A man on a horse. No, two. Two riders, side by side."

"Down here, beneath the Rock?" It made no sense. Yet there came two riders on pale horses, men and mounts both armored. The destriers emerged from the blackness at a slow walk. They make no sound, Jaime realized. No splashing, no clink of mail nor clop of hoof. He remembered Eddard Stark, riding the length of Aerys's throne room wrapped in silence. Only his eyes had spoken; a lord's eyes, cold and grey and full of judgment.

"Is it you, Stark?" Jaime called. "Come ahead. I never feared you living, I do not fear you dead."

Brienne touched his arm. "There are more."

He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

"You don't frighten me," he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. "I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out."

"I swore an oath to keep him safe," she said to Rhaegar's shade. "I swore a holy oath."

"We all swore oaths," said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. "He was going to burn the city," Jaime said. "To leave Robert only ashes."

"He was your king," said Darry.

"You swore to keep him safe," said Whent.

"And the children, them as well," said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."

"I never thought he'd hurt them." Jaime's sword was burning less brightly now. "I was with the king . . . "

"Killing the king," said Ser Arthur.

"Cutting his throat," said Prince Lewyn.

"The king you had sworn to die for," said the White Bull.

The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.

"No," he said, "no, no, no. Nooooooooo!"

 

There is a ton of imagery going on here.  The mention of a Stark in his dream followed by references to men armored in Snow really hints at what is going on beyond the Wall.  Brienne then speaks of her oath to Jaime and it is none other than Arthur Dayne who replies.  

And what is going on with Rhaegar's light going from white to dark?  I think this represents how it was Rhaegar's darker passions that ignited Robert's Rebellion which directly led to Jaime's kingslaying.  It also hints at Jon Snow: white and red for Ghost and Black for his Night's Watch cloak.  Note that Rhaegar even mentions his "children" in this section.  

But Brienne's sword continues to burn with bright light as the ghosts surround Jaime.  I think this might yet again be some significant foreshadowing.  

[Little Scribe of Naath]

A bit of a cool piece of possible foreshadowing if Jaime is meant to wield Dawn:

Quote

One damp cold morning when he was feeling slightly stronger, a madness took hold of him and he reached for the Dornishman's sword with his left hand and wrenched it clumsily from its scabbard. Let them kill me, he thought, so long as I die fighting, a blade in hand.

I don't think it's very likely though, as I don't see House Dayne giving up Dawn that easily  But we might be looking at Jaime becoming more of a metaphorical Dawn - maybe the journey of Jaime being a true knight like his idol Arthur Dayne.

@ravenous reader and @Lord Martin, excellent work at laying out all the Arthur Dayne/ Sword associations and foreshadowing in Jaime's arc. There's definitely something there.

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

A bit of a cool piece of possible foreshadowing if Jaime is meant to wield Dawn:

Quote

One damp cold morning when he was feeling slightly stronger, a madness took hold of him and he reached for the Dornishman's sword with his left hand and wrenched it clumsily from its scabbard. Let them kill me, he thought, so long as I die fighting, a blade in hand.

I don't think it's very likely though, as I don't see House Dayne giving up Dawn that easily  But we might be looking at Jaime becoming more of a metaphorical Dawn - maybe the journey of Jaime being a true knight like his idol Arthur Dayne.

The Dornishman's sword -- or the Dornishman's wife -- Dawn is in Dorne (another pun -- the bloodravenous reader strikes again...)  We're presuming the Sword of the Morning is in Starfall...lovely image of the star rising and setting in one!

6 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

I also enjoyed this quote:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

"I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking with a piss with the right.

But it steered me in another direction, toward another one handed warrior, Qhorin Halfhand.  Conisder these quotes:

When Jon and LC Mormont are awaiting Qhorin, the chapter states: "Dawn and Qhorin Halfhand arrived together" (Jon 6, ACOK), "Dawn had broken when Jon had stepped from the ten besides Qhorin Halfhand." (Jon 5, ACOK).  

So the concept of a left handed warrior and Dawn have some connection in the text.

In the economy of the duality, the 'right' hand is associated with 'pissing,' while the 'left' is associated with more noble 'knightly deeds'.  Otherwise put, the 'right' is the 'Smiling Knight,' who is 'wrong' vs. the 'left' which is the 'Arthur Dayne' persona, who is 'right.'  The irony is even weirder when you consider the Latin etymological underpinning, where left is 'sinister,' hence left-handed people were at one point historically regarded with suspicion and prejudice, just for being in the minority, and even in some cases considered to be 'sinister'!  Similarly, right-handed people -- the majority -- were considered to be 'right,' on a moral level as well, a false equivalence, in addition to being more manually 'dexterous,' having a 'good' instead of 'bad' hand  ('dexter' = right in Latin). That's why Arthur Dayne's outstanding dexterity (his 'rightness') with his left hand is so funny, in a quirky way.

 Doubtlessly, GRRM gets a great kick out of these types of 'Alice through the looking glass' back-to-front wordplays, giving us all a headache.  Apart from the fun of shuffling words, I also believe he intends to say something about 'the human heart in conflict with itself' -- represented by Jaime's 'right'(good which is bad) and 'left' (bad which is good) hands wrestling and pulling against each other in opposite directions, threatening to tear him asunder.  Now that the 'right' has been chopped off, however, Jaime's much freer to follow a 'redeemed' course, instead of this extreme 'tug-of-war.'  In particular, it's significant that the hand attached to Cersei's foot at birth has henceforth been severed from her influence, marking a turning point in their relationship and a divergence of their arcs.  On the other hand (sorry!), Arthur Dayne's ability to 'multitask,' using right and left simultaneously -- he is technically 'ambidexterous' -- is meant to serve as a model for Jaime in integrating the 'different sides' of himself into a coherent whole, one worthy of being written 'in black and white.'  The pages of the book are 'white' and the words written in ink are 'black' -- nothing can be written, even in the 'White Book', without this contrast!

Regarding 'taking a piss with his right,' that's representative of where the right-handed Jaime's gone wrong...(are you following me?!)  'Taking the piss' is an idiomatic expression for exploiting others, taking unreasonable liberties with them and being irresponsible.  'Taking the piss out of' someone is making fun of, particularly ridiculing another, and generally making light of life/behaving immaturely.  'Taking a piss' is literally urinating, and figuratively 'pissing on' something or someone is defamatory, e.g. besmirching his honor by kingslaying (i.e. connotations all of which you'll recognise as Jaime's 'Smiling Knight' persona).  When, however, he loses the right hand -- the same one he used to slay Aerys and throw Bran from the window and perform all his other 'dastardly deeds' -- he symbolically cleanses himself of his wrongdoing. Getting rid of the right is the same as getting rid of the wrong.  It's like reforging a broken sword, so your catch that 'Dawn had broken' like Qorin's or Jaime's 'Halfhand' is interesting.

6 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

The symbolism between Jaime, Brienne and Swords is all folded in on itself over and over.

Yeah, it's a bit like 'Valyrian steel' in that way, isn't it?  'One-but-overwrinkled.'

6 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

Recall that tale of Galladon of Morne,

'Morn' is the abbreviation for 'morning,' a synonym of 'Dawn,' so presumably the gallant 'Galladon' would be the sword of the morning!

Quote

a knight so perfect that the Maiden herself fell in love with him and gave him a sword of such power, nothing could stop it.  Galladon only unsheathed that sword three times and never against a mortal man.  The one instance we are told of this perfect knight using his sword was to slay a dragon.  Jaime of course slew a "dragon" when he killed the Mad King.  

That's a good catch.  

Quote

Much is made of Brienne's maidenhood as well which could suggest that at some point she will repay the favor and give Jaime a powerful sword in return.  

There's a sexual double entendre at work there too.  Have you seen this post of mine?

Quote

Consider also, that Brienne saves her own life by agreeing to hunt down Jaime by calling out the word "Sword" when Lady Stoneheart is about to hang her.  

There seems to be a pun on 'sword' with 'word(s').  Words, like swords, are magical keys to unlocking secret gates and doors, that can mean the difference between life and death -- so perhaps we should broaden our concept of 'sword' and not take 'Dawn' so literally.  For example, Sam 'the sword in the darkness' says the Night's Watch vow 'I am the sword...' etc. in order to pass the Black Gate.  Interestingly, Sam seems to be a Dawn-contender too, especially considering the passage (second below) after having slain the White Walker, when Grenn, i.e. GRRM, emphasizes, by repeating the word, 'Dawn' in conjunction with Sam.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon II

"Still?"

"Well," said Sam, "yes, but . . . I'm not as frightened as I was, truly. The first night, every time I heard someone getting up to make water, I thought it was wildlings creeping in to slit my throat. I was afraid that if I closed my eyes, I might never open them again, only . . . well . . . dawn came after all." He managed a wan smile. "I may be craven, but I'm not stupid. I'm sore and my back aches from riding and from sleeping on the ground, but I'm hardly scared at all. Look." He held out a hand for Jon to see how steady it was. "I've been working on my maps."

The world is strange, Jon thought. Two hundred brave men had left the Wall, and the only one who was not growing more fearful was Sam, the self-confessed coward. "We'll make a ranger of you yet," he joked. "Next thing, you'll want to be an outrider like Grenn. Shall I speak to the Old Bear?"

A Storm of Swords - Samwell I

"You keep it," Sam said. "You're not craven like me."

"So craven you killed an Other." Grenn pointed with the knife. "Look there, through the trees. Pink light. Dawn, Sam. Dawn. That must be east. If we head that way, we should catch Mormont."

"If you say." Sam kicked his left foot against a tree, to knock off all the snow. Then the right. "I'll try." Grimacing, he took a step. "I'll try hard." And then another

'Dawn, Sam. Dawn' -- what's going on there?

5 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

I also wanted to mention Jaime's fever dream on the Weirwood stump.  Here are some key excerpts:

I find that dream very mysterious.  Although I've attempted an interpretation in the past, others have probably done a better job at it, so I'm not sure how much I'll be able to add.  First, let me state that I believe Bran and Bloodraven (the two riders, Jaime can make out wreathed in mist heralding the rest of the entourage) sent the dream via the weirwood stump, and that they plan to recruit him for their agenda, whatever that may be, in the war to come.  Jaime addresses the one confronting him as 'Stark, is that you?' thinking it's Ned from the grave sent to torment him on the basis of the weirwood stump which reminds him of 'Ned's tree.'  Jaime's 'half right' (ha ha), it's a Stark but not the one he thinks it is -- it's Bran, the Stark he's put out of his mind after putting him out of the window, as if Jaime has blocked out the memory of that event, which now can only haunt him in dreams.  Moreover, armed with our 'meta-'knowledge, we can in retrospect identify that the heart tree of which Jaime speaks is not truly 'Ned's', but more accurately is possessed (literally and figuratively) by Bran as the ghost 'genius loci'  (I've written on that here (scroll down to purple heading genius loci) who resides in and speaks from that tree.

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I will later return to the "dozen tall dark figures."  But note that Jaime is calling for a sword. 

@sweetsunray and @LmL have been having a discussion on the '12 + 1' 'Last Hero + 12 companions' configuration.  Would that make Jaime a 'Last Hero' contender, surrounded by 12 figures?

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The dream continues:

So we have Jaime leaving what he knows of Casterly Rock and being pushed into the abyss, the dark nothing.  He is being told by his ancestors that this is his place.  This is quite literally Jaime wrestling with being parted from his Lannister heritage.  Cersei's departure and taking the torch with her is a major symbol of this.  Cersei and Tywin are so very Lannister, very lion and they are leaving him.

I've questioned whether 'the Rock' in question is really Casterly Rock.  Why would the Lannisters depart the bowels -- the heart -- of Casterly Rock, leaving it to Jaime.  And where is Tyrion?  Perhaps it's Aegon's Red Rock -- the Rock into which the Red Keep is carved, and site of Jaime's greatest misdeed.  In the dream, he's also visited by a lot of Targaryen-affiliated shades, whom he's betrayed, so it would make sense for them to frequent the Red Rock.  We don't know about the nethermost levels of the Red Rock; for all we know, and going by other caverns, there is water in the lower depths.  I agree he's being parted from his Lannister heritage, whether that's because his father isn't really Tywin (and maybe Aerys), or whether it's more symbolic, indicating a change of allegiances, is debatable.  For example, I've previously speculated that there are 'waters' in the depths of Jaime's subconscious, and at the base of his turbulent and confused identity, because he may be a 'Waters' -- a Targ bastard, just like Rennifer Longwaters, the longwinded 'dragonseed' he meets in the dungeons of the Red Keep along with the three-headed-dragon mosaic, which addresses him, much as in this dream.  'I know you Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying...I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me...'  It's possible Jaime misheard the dragon:  perhaps it was saying, 'I know you kin-slayer'..!  I have expressed that on several threads, without receiving feedback, so I guess most readers find it far-out; the lack of enthusiasm notwithstanding, it remains a possibility, however remote and unpopular.

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Jaime again begs for a sword and Tywin claims he gave him one.  Note this dream occurs before Jaime is given Oathkeeper.  It is a nice bit of foreshadowing.  

Indeed.

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And then note the color of the flame that Jaime picks up.  It does not burn red or even golden like house Lannister, it is Pale and Silvery-Blue.  

 

Yes, like Dawn or a sword of the Others.

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Brienne's sword then takes on the same flame.  This symbolizes Brienne's growing influence over Jaime and in many ways how she is replacing Cersei as the woman in Jaime's life.  

I agree.  Probably, there's something more complex attached to the symbology as well, which we haven't clarified yet.  His 'sword' ignites her flame ('turning her on'..?!)  Could flames represent children?  First, Rhaegar's children who were snuffed out, for which Jaime is indirectly responsible, having failed to protect them (think of the archetypes of the 'warrior' and 'father' in the 'song of the seven,' which Jaime has failed to live up to as a knight).  Second, Jaime's chidren.  Perhaps the flame in his hand represents the last of his remaining children conceived with Cersei dying out (according to the woods witch's prophecy facilitated by Cersei's increasing derailment), whereas the flame Brienne holds is the hope for the future, the child he might conceive with her -- a pure flame in contradistinction to the corrupt flame of the 'twincestuous love' and all the twisted 'things he did for that love'.  When Jaime and Brienne were wrestling so fiercely and fondly in their infamous 'sword fight, ' which led directly to them being captured, the loss of Jaime's hand, and the turnaround of his fortunes and 'moral' destiny, GRRM sneaks in the phrase 'they were making enough noise to wake a dragon,' which I contend is, among other references, an indication of sex with ensuing childbirth.  Is Jaime the dragon, or another?  Perhaps Jaime will play 'kingmaker' for another, bringing him/her to power, a virtual childbirth and symbolic sword forging.

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Then the dream concludes with Jaime being confronted by his guilt in the form of his sword brothers:

There is a ton of imagery going on here.  The mention of a Stark in his dream followed by references to men armored in Snow really hints at what is going on beyond the Wall.  Brienne then speaks of her oath to Jaime and it is none other than Arthur Dayne who replies.  

Yes, lots of guilt, indicating Jaime feels compelled to make amends to the ones his wronged, most of all himself, beginning with turning around the horses and heading back to Harrenhal for Brienne upon awakening as a direct consequence of the dream.  The interchange between Brienne and Dayne -- together representative of 'the better angels' of Jaime's nature and his 'spirit guardians'-- is very mysterious.  Dayne is sad because he compromised his own oath, a breach of the 'perfect knight' ideal, the precise circumstances of which remain tantalizingly mysterious.  Many have offered that Dayne is Jon's father; however, I remain unconvinced.  

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And what is going on with Rhaegar's light going from white to dark?  I think this represents how it was Rhaegar's darker passions that ignited Robert's Rebellion which directly led to Jaime's kingslaying.  It also hints at Jon Snow: white and red for Ghost and Black for his Night's Watch cloak.  Note that Rhaegar even mentions his "children" in this section.  

But Brienne's sword continues to burn with bright light as the ghosts surround Jaime.  I think this might yet again be some significant foreshadowing.  

I've always said -- Jaime is doomed.  But he'll go down in a blaze of glory, doing something very crucial.  I'm not sure of all the color symbology.  Rhaegar's light changes from white to red to black.  @Seams has suggested that the red to black shift in general mirrors the forging of a sword.  Could this also reflect Jaime's transformation or symbolic 're-forging' from white knight of the Kingsguard, back to Lannister, and then allied with the Targaryens (Rhaegar's armor was black).  There's also this color shift which I picked up on recently, where the moonlight in the 'Whispering Wood' (the province of the greenseers and old gods) transmutes Jaime's hair from gold to silver, and his cloak from red to black:

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn X

She nodded as the woods grew still around them. In the quiet she could hear them, far off yet moving closer; the tread of many horses, the rattle of swords and spears and armor, the murmur of human voices, with here a laugh, and there a curse.

Eons seemed to come and go. The sounds grew louder. She heard more laughter, a shouted command, splashing as they crossed and recrossed the little stream. A horse snorted. A man swore. And then at last she saw him … only for an instant, framed between the branches of the trees as she looked down at the valley floor, yet she knew it was him. Even at a distance, Ser Jaime Lannister was unmistakable. The moonlight had silvered his armor and the gold of his hair, and turned his crimson cloak to black. He was not wearing a helm.

He was there and he was gone again, his silvery armor obscured by the trees once more. Others came behind him, long columns of them, knights and sworn swords and freeriders, three quarters of the Lannister horse.

Any ideas?

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

@sweetsunray and @LmL have been having a discussion on the '12 + 1' 'Last Hero + 12 companions' configuration.  Would that make Jaime a 'Last Hero' contender, surrounded by 12 figures?

Yup that is one of the quotes you can add as a 12+1 configuration. Not sure whether it's truly a LH contender, since there are so many. Might mean he may be one of the 13, along with Arya, Sam, Roose...

[LmL]

27 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

@sweetsunray and @LmL have been having a discussion on the '12 + 1' 'Last Hero + 12 companions' configuration.  Would that make Jaime a 'Last Hero' contender, surrounded by 12 figures?

It is Joffrey who is the 13th, as he has 12 dark shadows behind him which represent other children he might have with Cersei. Jaime is the father of the Last Hero in this scene, according to this interpretation. I have been zeroing in on that alignment for a while, the LH as the son of AA the bad guy who caused the LN. Regardless of AA's intentions or morality, Jaime does have many clues which line up with this. Aerys would have been the moon mother of dragons figure when Jaime as the sun warrior, killed him. The eye wound and hand injuries he suffers in ASOS in up with AA symbols of the same. 

What is the most interesting to me are the flaming swords he and Brienne wield - described alternately as "pale flame" and "silvery blue flame." Definitely makes one think of Dawn. This dream seems to be coming from the weirwood in some sense, and I can't help but wonder where the image of a silver-blue flaming sword came from? We saw the swords of pale fire in Daenery's wake the dragon dream, which might be a link, though it's tentative. I have other ideas about Dawn being a tree-sword in some sense, and this is the Dawn = original Ice idea, so it's intriguing to see a sword of pale fire in a vision potentially influenced by the weirwood stump jaime is sleeping on. 

[LmL]

Actually, reading back over the end of the vision, I think I can interpret the swords. I've long proposed that the comet which struck the moon according to my theory was split in half before it hit, just as Ned's sword was split and just as we see the broken sword symbol everywhere in significant places. The symbolism suggests it, and we need the comet to split if the red comet in today's story is a part of the original Lightbringer comet, which it seems to be. Thing is, regular comets have blue and silver tails. Red comets are basically impossible, with the exception of localized atmospheric conditions. So we can conclude that the red comet is probably magic, no shock there, and we might further deduce that it has somehow transformed into its current state somehow. So, when I see one sword "go dark" and the other one continue to burn, it makes me think of both the idea of one comet slamming into the moon and turning out the lights - you'll notice his killing of Aerys is the topic of conversation at this exact moment, an act which repays the sun killing the moon with a sword (comet symbol). The other sword burns onward... but when we see Brienne with her half of a real split sword - ned's Ice - it's not a blue and silver sword is it? No, it has gone dark too, in fact it's steel drinks the light and turns the attempted crimson dye job into "waves of blood and night." I have long said that Oathkeeper is a very important symbol of the red comet, the surviving one, so that completes the picture in this dream. Originally, we had one blue and silver comet, then it split. The one went dark as it hit the moon, the second one burned on, but was transformed, turning dark in a more metaphorical way. This further equates Jaime with AA the dad and not AA reborn, the child of sun and moon (which is what Last Hero seems to be). 

Joffrey also has other 12+1 and LH symbolism, as I have highlighted in a couple of my recent episodes. Of course he has Widow's Wail, the other hand of Ice, so the symbolism is quite similar. 

Brienne meanwhile shows us an icy moon maiden and an icy reborn AA figure, the cold version of Daenerys in many ways. Brienne the blue of the blue eyes and frequent cow-status, daughter of the Evenstar (making her the morningstar). I believe that icy AA reborn is the role Jon plays also, and to some extent, the Others (they are a cold parallel to dragons in this way). This cold version of AA reborn is a future figure, not a past one, I believe - it represents the impending disaster with the red comet and the remaining moon, which is like my one big massive prediction for the end of the series. Basically, the moon that was blown up was associated with fire, and the remaining one with ice, as I see it, so we better get ready for ice dragon meteors to kick off the new Long Night. Brienne and Jon and a couple others symbolize this cold version Azor Ahai reborn.

Papa Tarth the Evenstar, and Rhaegar, the black dragon, both equate to the NK in terms of symbolism, and work well as the parents of the cold version of AA reborn in my little cosmology. This cold version of AA reborn seems to wield a black sword, more often than not, which is also emblematic of the idea of frozen fire (hence the naming of Ned's black dragon sword "Ice." It's "black Ice," just like obsidian is.) These are the right figures to give birth to icy AA. 

Jaime giving Brienne the black sword while in the white sword tower is a great one. That is showing the sun giving the ice moon a black meteor sword... and this might be a reference to the impending ice moon disaster I am speaking of. There's this whole thing about a black fiery meteor or comet becoming buried in ice. Blackfish Tully, he of the obsidian fish, is buried in the Gates of the Moon and the snowy Vale, with its white and bluesman symbolism. Same for fiery moon maiden Sansa, who gets snowed in up there. Brienne herself is buried by an "avalanche" of Biter in her near death scene, and his huge white face becomes the world as he eats her.  I have related ideas about one of the black moon meteors from the exploding fire moon becoming lodged in the ice moon which are similar (symbolically) to the idea of the comet returning to hit the ice moon in the future, so I am foggy on all of that but I have definitely noticed this pattern. 

Sorry if some of that is off topic but it is all related to jaime and white swords and the Last Hero. 

[Meera of Tarth]

Interesting thread! I didn't remember I was following it and now....lots of great posts today

what's up with the 12 +1? seems there are different theories on the same  symbollic number