Heresy 189

[Tucu]

22 minutes ago, KirnMalidus said:

I can see it being the door to the crypt at Winterfell. Maybe Hodor is holding the door closed against some opposing force (White Walkers? Daenerys & Co.?) while John and allies (including Bran, obviously) are attempting to perform some sort of ritual in the crypt as alluded to in your theory about the crypts and their kings rising.

The door to the crypts is the best fit of the doors we have seen. Heavy and on a passage that only allows one person at a time. Hodor could probably held it against an army for hours. "The door to the crypts was made of ironwood. It was old and heavy, and lay at a slant to the ground. Only one person could approach it at a time".

But this would require Hodor (and maybe Bran and Meera) to make their way back to Winterfell.

[Matthew.]

22 hours ago, Voice said:

Agreed, if anything, the First Men Invasion would have been more like a Dothraki horde, as they were a-horse.

Along these lines, even though I've referenced this before, I have to repeat that I think the supposed magical response of the CotF to the FM makes a great deal more sense if the FM came westward in an organized, aggressive campaign, as opposed to gradually settling the lands over hundreds or even thousands of years. What good would breaking the Arm of Dorne do if humanity has already settled, started establishing ringforts, started breeding?

If we think of it as a true war, a true invasion, I think the Arm of Dorne and the Neck have a more logical context--the CotF tried to stop the aggressors at the Arm, and failed, they tried again by flooding the Neck to cut off access to the North, and still failed...and, if one were inclined to view the Pact as occuring after the LN, rather than before, you could say that the magic of the CotF finally succeeding in halting men at the Haunted Forest/Wall.

It may also be the case that the idea of the "First Men" as a homogenous culture is deeply flawed, and that by the time of the Pact there were already all sorts of men that had gradually made their way westward - some more friendly to the Cotf, some less friendly - and that it's only in the aftermath of the Pact that all of these people were lumped together as "The First Men." Some aspects of the oral history, such as Moat Caitlin, would suggest that the CotF already had human allies against the pre-Andal invaders that were destroying the weirwood.

[Black Crow]

24 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The door to the crypts is the best fit of the doors we have seen. Heavy and on a passage that only allows one person at a time. Hodor could probably held it against an army for hours. "The door to the crypts was made of ironwood. It was old and heavy, and lay at a slant to the ground. Only one person could approach it at a time".

But this would require Hodor (and maybe Bran and Meera) to make their way back to Winterfell.

It would also involve some very dodgy time travelling. Hodor is Hodor because he lost the power of speech as a young boy. If he was holding the door to the crypt or more likely one deep inside, it was as a boy many years ago; which would rule out Danaerys the Dragonlord right away 

[Black Crow]

18 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

It may also be the case that the idea of the "First Men" as a homogenous culture is deeply flawed, and that by the time of the Pact there were already all sorts of men that had gradually made their way westward - some more friendly to the Cotf, some less friendly - and that it's only in the aftermath of the Pact that all of these people were lumped together as "The First Men." Some aspects of the oral history, such as Moat Caitlin, would suggest that the CotF already had human allies against the pre-Andal invaders that were destroying the weirwood.

Which is why I offered the scenario that the Pact as described by Maester Luwin was doomed from the start and that it took the Long Night, or perhaps the Wall and the Long Night that came with it, to bring some order into the proceedings - and account for the human origins of the white walkers. 

[Tucu]

15 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

It would also involve some very dodgy time travelling. Hodor is Hodor because he lost the power of speech as a young boy. If he was holding the door to the crypt or more likely one deep inside, it was as a boy many years ago; which would rule out Danaerys the Dragonlord right away 

I don't think it would require any more time manipulation that is already present in the books. A dream sent as a warning by the trees a few years ago about an event that has not occurred yet.

[Brad Stark]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Read the passage where Jon and Ygritte scale the Wall and note the vehemence with which she says that it is made of blood.

Which, as ever, provides me with the excuse to quote Jennet Clouston:

Blood built it

Blood stopped the building of it

And blood will bring it down, black will be its fall.

Read the passage with that quotation in mind.

I read it.  I am convinced Ygritte thinks its evil, but I am not convinced it is evil.  It is dangerous and it is hated, but that doesn't make it evil.

[Voice]

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Actually i'm not assuming they can see everything.I'm saying that the moment TLH and his companions entered the forest they saw him.

 

Which is, of course, an assumption.

As with Bloodraven, Bran, and Coldhands, it may have been simply impossible for the Last Hero's envoy to reach him until they did.

 

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

So,at given what was going on in the environment at the tme...you know with humans getting their asses kicked...Oh they had eyes in the deadlands and the barrenlands.They have the means via their greenseers to see what was happening and could have offered help at anytime before all but one member of the party remained.

 

Another assumption.

 

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Nah Voice i think you are the one in the wrong on this one.We actually have a bet on this as you reminded me.So i'll restate my theory on this.Your "Ancient Others" the ones riding Ice spiders who could ride Ice Mammoths and Icy Krakens or whatever they choose;will end up being boogeymen manifestations of a collective of greenseers.So far they have run a perfect game,no one knows they are back because Jon hasn't told anyone about the trees having eyes again.Their whole point has been operating in the dark where no one can see them.No one will ever know its them because they give the good old people of Westeros Monsters they can see thus giving themselves the best defense they can give.....Anonymity

 

Time will tell. But I'm looking forward to our football/futbol game.

It should be noted that greenseer anonymity is a new circumstance. Rather than hide and operate only in the dark where no one can see them, they have always been as conspicuous as the faces in the trees.

People forgot what the faces meant, as happens with motifs over time. New motifs replace the old, and the old become arcane.

You are retrofitting that ignorance to First Men who would have been quite familiar with the customs and traditions of the children of the forest. As, well, by that time they were also their own customs and traditions.

The anonymity you are implying existed at that time is a far more recent development.

 

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I do not separate the COTF from the greenseers because it is made clear in the series and in the WB that the greenseers were the wise men and the Shamans of the COTF.This all starts and ends with them.

 

There is a distinction to be made. Equating them is like equating all humans with the rank of Grand Maester. Daario is no maester. Shagga has no glass candle, and if he did, he likely fed it to his goat.

 

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The whole the Others wanted him to find the COTF and learn their language and them be picked up is uneccessary.

 

Time will tell. While it might be peripheral, I have a feeling it is not. I've met much resistance to this idea though, so I understand. I think folks will come around as more information becomes available.

It should be noted that the world book attributed an action to Brandon the Builder that the novels only attributed to the Last Hero. I found that interesting.

 

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

the greenseers created  what Westerosi inhabitants call the Others to conceal their precence and involvemt.

 

Creating such a fantastical race seems a poor way to stay under the radar.

 

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

If no one knows they are involve then the casualty they suffered the last time is unlikely to happen again.

 

You seem to be forgetting that the casualties had already been unlikely to happen again.

The Others arrived in Westeros after 2000 years of peace. A period of time in which the First Men converted to the religion of the cotf, and began keeping their same gods.

So, if anything, creating inhuman sidhe made of ice would have made retaliation more likely, rather than less.

 

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

They doubled that by making the followers of R'hollor believe that they are really dealing with R'hollor.Unique and powerful skinchangers masquarading as gods.

 

Possible. But I am hesitant to attribute Asshai'i faiths to the cotf.

 

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Another resounding theme taught to Bran by the BTB collective and summed up nicley with Littlefinger's quote

It is worth mentioning the iron throne isn't the only throne to be had.

 

So the cotf are playing the game of thrones and Littlefinger is a messenger of the Old Gods?!

I ne'er even suspected!

 

 

7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Along these lines, even though I've referenced this before, I have to repeat that I think the supposed magical response of the CotF to the FM makes a great deal more sense if the FM came westward in an organized, aggressive campaign, as opposed to gradually settling the lands over hundreds or even thousands of years. What good would breaking the Arm of Dorne do if humanity has already settled, started establishing ringforts, started breeding?

If we think of it as a true war, a true invasion, I think the Arm of Dorne and the Neck have a more logical context--the CotF tried to stop the aggressors at the Arm, and failed, they tried again by flooding the Neck to cut off access to the North, and still failed...and, if one were inclined to view the Pact as occuring after the LN, rather than before, you could say that the magic of the CotF finally succeeding in halting men at the Haunted Forest/Wall.

It may also be the case that the idea of the "First Men" as a homogenous culture is deeply flawed, and that by the time of the Pact there were already all sorts of men that had gradually made their way westward - some more friendly to the Cotf, some less friendly - and that it's only in the aftermath of the Pact that all of these people were lumped together as "The First Men." Some aspects of the oral history, such as Moat Caitlin, would suggest that the CotF already had human allies against the pre-Andal invaders that were destroying the weirwood.

 

Agreed. Did not mean to suggest the First Men were as barbaric as Dothraki, though they do seem to have shared a fondness for blood, bronze, and curved blades (the white haired woman's sickle in Bran's weirwood vision, a Dothraki arakh). The First Men and Dothraki also both lack a sea-faring culture. They also both seem to have followed godlike warrior-leaders, Magnar & Khal. But yes, with all that being said, I can see how their arrival would have been less barbaric and far more diverse in terms of alliances and feuds with cotf. Great points, ser. I definitely agree they brought some flawed traditions with them across the Narrow Sea, but that is a conversation for my Weirwood Ghost thread.

 

22 hours ago, Black Crow said:

A very timely reminder as to the shortage of greenseers at the best of times - and its also significant that the only known human ones have been drawn into the trees and are not stravaighing about doing their own thing.

I too am hesitant to clink to the rest, but the bold cannot be overstated. Skinchanging is rare. Greenseeing is rarer still. We cannot assume Westeros was covered with greenseers during the Last Hero's journey. There may have been but one.

We simply do not know.

 

22 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I disagree though as to the identification of the Last Hero with the Night's King, but otherwise, whether deliberate or not your very plausible scenario of the said Last Hero reaching the tree-huggers parallels very closely Bran's journey into the Heart of Darkness

Always deliberate. They are all Brandons, after all.

[Matthew.]

15 minutes ago, Voice said:

Agreed. Did not mean to suggest the First Men were as barbaric as Dothraki, though they do seem to have shared a fondness for blood, bronze, and curved blades (the white haired woman's sickle in Bran's weirwood vision, a Dothraki arakh). The First Men and Dothraki also both lack a sea-faring culture. They also both seem to have followed godlike warrior-leaders, Magnar & Khal. But yes, with all that being said, I can see how their arrival would have been less barbaric and far more diverse in terms of alliances and feuds with cotf. Great points, ser. I definitely agree they brought some flawed traditions with them across the Narrow Sea, but that is a conversation for my Weirwood Ghost thread.

Actually, I'm not disagreeing with the comparison, I think a "Dothraki-esque" invasion of men - perhaps under the leadership of a Magnar - is precisely what prompted the Breaking of the Arm of Dorne, and then the flooding of the Neck--they didn't go to such extreme measures as a futile gesture against men that had already settled the land, they were attempting to cut off an active invasion. 

What I think may have been lost over the course of history is that some men had already settled Westeros, and some may have already had an existing friendship with the CotF, such as the crannogmen, and that lumping all of these cultures together under the label of "First Men" is probably an oversimplification, a natural consequence of men in Westeros becoming culturally homogenized after the Pact--with some notable outliers, like the Iron Born.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I read it.  I am convinced Ygritte thinks its evil, but I am not convinced it is evil.  It is dangerous and it is hated, but that doesn't make it evil.

We'll agree to differ on that one but I'm also mindful of the other stories, like the sentinels and of Melisandre's statement anent the great magic within the Wall, which is why I don't see the fall of the Wall as a catastrophe allowing the Others [all five or six of them depending where Ser Puddles came in] to come flooding through, but rather as the inevitable and necessary requirement to the resolution of the conflict, hence my quoting Jennet Clouston.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

 

I too am hesitant to clink to the rest, but the bold cannot be overstated. Skinchanging is rare. Greenseeing is rarer still. We cannot assume Westeros was covered with greenseers during the Last Hero's journey. There may have been but one.

We simply do not know.

 

And human greenseers rarer still.

[Black Crow]

59 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

What I think may have been lost over the course of history is that some men had already settled Westeros, and some may have already had an existing friendship with the CotF, such as the crannogmen, and that lumping all of these cultures together under the label of "First Men" is probably an oversimplification, a natural consequence of men in Westeros becoming culturally homogenized after the Pact--with some notable outliers, like the Iron Born.

I'm also mindful of the very sensible suggestion someone made that the First Men were so named not because they were the first men to come to Westeros, but because they were First among them, ie; the tribal aristos.

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And human greenseers rarer still.

I would expect the opposite to be true. A one in a million chance for men to be born a greenseer would imply a few are born each generation and they seem to live longer that normal people. At a time of low magic and forgotten rituals we know of 2 or 3 (if we count Euron) people with the right blood.

The CoTF greenseers on the other hand are rare ("once in a great while") and they live shorter lives than the rest of the CoTF ("their quick years upon the earth are few")

[Brad Stark]

Has anyone given any thought as to WHY Bran and the greenseers are important, with winter comming?  A powerful visionary who can control animals isn't much of a match for an army you need a 700 foot wall to defend yourself from.

[Armstark]

26 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Has anyone given any thought as to WHY Bran and the greenseers are important, with winter comming?  A powerful visionary who can control animals isn't much of a match for an army you need a 700 foot wall to defend yourself from.

To take control of the wights.

[KirnMalidus]

16 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It would also involve some very dodgy time travelling. Hodor is Hodor because he lost the power of speech as a young boy. If he was holding the door to the crypt or more likely one deep inside, it was as a boy many years ago; which would rule out Danaerys the Dragonlord right away 

I'm not sure that's any more necessary than the time loop already will be to explain away why Hodor lost speech as a boy. I don't think he was holding the door in the past - it will be a future event in the series, I think even GRRM has said this (in the quote that it won't be like it was on the show but that it is coming in the books). They'll still need to do some form of Bran warging/history seeing via Hodor time-loop to explain why it messed him up in the past like they (kind of) did on the show.

Also, there's more than one way to hold a door. Just because the door opens one way, doesn't mean you can only hold it by pushing against it to keep it closed. You can also pull on it to keep it closed. Heck, it doesn't even have to be held closed - you can hold a door open. All would technically fit the term "hold the door." Just because he was pushing against a door with his back in the show to keep it closed does not mean that is how it will play out in the books.

Yes, for it to be the crypts at Winterfell it does mean that Hodor will have to make it back there, likely with Bran and possibly Meera and Jojen (he's not dead yet in the books) as well. I think Bran going back to Winterfell at some point soon so he can have a chat with Jon is also a very likely scenario.

[Armstark]

Did you guys read the TWOW Arianne II sample chapter? It made me think about Storm's End, the magic castle we tend to forget about. Rumored to be built by BtB as well and protected by ancient spells woven into the stone as evidenced by Melisandre/Davos.

 

What made me wonder was this:

 

Spoiler

Arianne had once heard her father and Maester Caleotte arguing with a septon about why the north and south sides of the Sea of Dorne were so different. The septon thought it was because of Durran Godsgrief, the first Storm King, who had stolen the daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind and earned their eternal emnity. Prince Doran and the maester inclined more toward wind and water, and spoke of how the big storms that formed down in the Summer Sea would pick up moisture moving north until they slammed into Cape Wrath. For some strange reason the storms never seemed to strike at Dorne, she recalled her father saying.   “I know your reason,” the septon had responded.  “No Dornishmen ever stole away the daughter of two gods.”

 

Clearly us readers are supposed to wonder this question: why do all the storms breach land in the Stormlands and none in Dorne? 

Could Storm's End be the reason? A castle built to attract all storms? To make Dorne a desert.

 

It would certainly help with Dothraki-like hordes of First Men invading, a desert can't sustain a khalasar. And it provides ample rain for a deep forests (Rainwood) at Cape Wrath. 

 

 

One more thing: again we have a story of forbidden love with Durran like with Bael the Bard and the NK.

[Other other stark]

What I am about to say will really only apply to the book. I am starting to think more and more that the first men, was a small group and they never warred with the children. This is how we have humans that are close with the children from the get go, i.e. Marsh King and crannogmen. Wether they actually mate or just teach them the gifts is for wide debate. The next wave was the ones warring. NOW whether the children caused the long night by trying to mess with cosmic forces that had unseen consequences, or it was some other ancient people(in highly doubt both as this would be close to God like to command a meteors path). It is most likely a meteor that landed and really out of all humanoids control. Kicking up dust into the atmosphere and cashing tidal waves and volcanic eruptions.  I really think the children just took advantage at an opportune time. These original walkers were the "first men" who were always on the children's side. Then comes the hero and the pact. The label "first men" over time just becomes synonymous with any human pre-Andal. Tgere is too much information missing. This is why I fell in the end. It's going to be a mash of all the most plausible theories. Because that's what Martin story is. A mash up of myths, facts, legends, and people from our real world twisted and turned. That's also what makes these forums so fun. Because nobody is 100% wrong or 100% right. It's also why every once in a while your read something that changes your view on the books or makes you have a new theory or adapt your theory to incorporate what you just read. 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Armstark said:

Did you guys read the TWOW Arianne II sample chapter? It made me think about Storm's End, the magic castle we tend to forget about. Rumored to be built by BtB as well and protected by ancient spells woven into the stone as evidenced by Melisandre/Davos.

 

What made me wonder was this:

 

  Hide contents

Arianne had once heard her father and Maester Caleotte arguing with a septon about why the north and south sides of the Sea of Dorne were so different. The septon thought it was because of Durran Godsgrief, the first Storm King, who had stolen the daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind and earned their eternal emnity. Prince Doran and the maester inclined more toward wind and water, and spoke of how the big storms that formed down in the Summer Sea would pick up moisture moving north until they slammed into Cape Wrath. For some strange reason the storms never seemed to strike at Dorne, she recalled her father saying.   “I know your reason,” the septon had responded.  “No Dornishmen ever stole away the daughter of two gods.”

 

Clearly us readers are supposed to wonder this question: why do all the storms breach land in the Stormlands and none in Dorne? 

Could Storm's End be the reason? A castle built to attract all storms? To make Dorne a desert.

 

It would certainly help with Dothraki-like hordes of First Men invading, a desert can't sustain a khalasar. And it provides ample rain for a deep forests (Rainwood) at Cape Wrath. 

 

 

One more thing: again we have a story of forbidden love with Durran like with Bael the Bard and the NK.

I have read the chapter and I too have puzzled over this passage, because I was looking for inversions and this struck me as some type of clue, but I haven't worked out the solution yet. I am actually a proponent that Robert Baratheon (Storm Lord) dressed in Rhaegar's armor and kidnapped Lyanna (magical moonmaid) as a repeat of Durran and Elenei. This would also be a fake "mummer's" version of Rhaegar the Bael-like figure stealing the Stark daughter. But I have no idea why we're supposed to take note that Dorne is blameless in either scenario. 

[wolfmaid7]

11 hours ago, Voice said:

Which is, of course, an assumption.

As with Bloodraven, Bran, and Coldhands, it may have been simply impossible for the Last Hero's envoy to reach him until they did.

"Reaching" him is not the same as seeing him and unable to reach him.May i point out with Bran the trees were already calling him so he was expected.

11 hours ago, Voice said:

Another assumption.

Why is it an assumption that their greenseers were somehow unable to you know..Use its many eyes and skins to see TLH?That's lke asking a Dr why he gives injections.

11 hours ago, Voice said:

So the cotf are playing the game of thrones and Littlefinger is a messenger of the Old Gods?!

I ne'er even suspected!

The COTF and the greenseers are playing a game of thrones yes.Come now Voice don't play ignorant.The theme of concealing oneself from foes by means of trickery,diversions,backstabbing etc has been in this series since book one.

11 hours ago, Voice said:

Time will tell. While it might be peripheral, I have a feeling it is not. I've met much resistance to this idea though, so I understand. I think folks will come around as more information becomes available.

It should be noted that the world book attributed an action to Brandon the Builder that the novels only attributed to the Last Hero. I found that interesting.

Not saying its not possible,i'm saying i've yet to see the point as to why in your theory the others wanted to lean the language of the COTF.They are all everyone of them "Those who sing the songs of earth" and in this case i think BR was more broad than specific.Songs of earth means eveything.The songs of nature itself.

 

11 hours ago, Voice said:

Creating such a fantastical race seems a poor way to stay under the radar.

What are you talking about,no on knows the greenseers are alive.What better way if you want to operate in secret but to create the White walkers and have them be blamed for everything...That's genius.Does anyboy know the greenseers are operational ? Anyone? Nope.

11 hours ago, Voice said:

Possible. But I am hesitant to attribute Asshai'i faiths to the cotf.

You misunderstand the COTF aren't responsible for the faiths in Asshai.The greensers here are just playing at being R'hollor.Think Stargate.The Egyptian gods were myth,the Gaould made them real by taking on their persona.Turned themselves into the gods that the people believed.

11 hours ago, Voice said:

You seem to be forgetting that the casualties had already been unlikely to happen again.

The Others arrived in Westeros after 2000 years of peace. A period of time in which the First Men converted to the religion of the cotf, and began keeping their same gods.

So, if anything, creating inhuman sidhe made of ice would have made retaliation more likely, rather than less.

Peace ,what peace? Men went back warring against each other like they always did,some COTF sided with some humans and the fighting continued.Men continued to breed relenlessly and some still cut down and warred with the COTF.There was no peace.

We have no idea if all the COTF and the greenseers  that lived in Westeros came together and fought as one.I highly doubt it.We certainly don't know if "The Pact" represented the desires of ALL the greenseers and COTF.That's the same umbrella type mentality shown toward the Indians.

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And human greenseers rarer still.

 

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I too am hesitant to clink to the rest, but the bold cannot be overstated. Skinchanging is rare. Greenseeing is rarer still. We cannot assume Westeros was covered with greenseers during the Last Hero's journey. There may have been but one.

We simply do not know.

Skinchanging is rare in the SOUTH not beyond the Wall.Really??? We are told they existed as far as the LOAW,Summer Isle,we got a contingent on the IOF.Yeah they were all over Westeros and some of them may have been untouched by war.

 

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Has anyone given any thought as to WHY Bran and the greenseers are important, with winter comming?  A powerful visionary who can control animals isn't much of a match for an army you need a 700 foot wall to defend yourself from.

Who else are controlling and will be controlling the Wights.And the end of this we are going to see Wights fighting Wights.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Tucu said:

I would expect the opposite to be true. A one in a million chance for men to be born a greenseer would imply a few are born each generation and they seem to live longer that normal people. At a time of low magic and forgotten rituals we know of 2 or 3 (if we count Euron) people with the right blood.

The CoTF greenseers on the other hand are rare ("once in a great while") and they live shorter lives than the rest of the CoTF ("their quick years upon the earth are few")

Not at all - they live long in the wood - as obviously, has Bloodraven.