Heresy 189

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

It does seem weird considering the tales of the things that can't cross the walls....

"It was the end of the world, Old Nan always said. On the other side were monsters and giants and ghouls, but they could not pass so long as the Wall stood strong."

So in a nutshell the things that go bump in the night can't cross but as usuall there's a loophole.

IMO i think it has to do with the "human" shell affording some kind of protection and cloak.Mel and the wights were human on the outside,though they had each payloads to deliver.But to me what's inside them the incorpeal and disembodied entity can't pass.

I'm still more inclined to say that the significant bit is Mel's statement that the Wall is as much hers as Jon's - something which as ever with GRRM has the possibility of more than one layer.*

Taken in conjunction with the next line that the Wall is one of the great hinges of the world might it not, notwithstanding its outward form, be a fusion of both Ice and Fire magic, not merely a barrier against one, but the point at which both butt up against each other?

 

* in saying the Wall is his, does she merely acknowledge his being the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, or is she also recognising his representing Ice to her Fire?

[Melifeather]

min (LynnS on Westeros) has an interesting theory where she likens the Wall of ice as using ice magic to fight ice magic much like firemen will fight fire with fire by burning a fire break. She thinks the Wall draws the killing cold to itself and grows stronger in the process. The larger it gets the more it effects the seasons. She thinks if it comes down it would wipe out most of the humans on Westeros, because the killing cold would be released and put out all flame/warmth.

[Brad Stark]

I thought Mel was a living human.  She has magic, and may have lived beyond her nautral years, but she isn't undead and can pass.

Did Wun Wun have any problems?  Except as a physical barrier, the wall doesn't stop giants, and Direwolves can cross, or at least the mother of the Starks' did.  

Maybe the Wall only stops Others and similar undead, as well as the Warg bond.

I always assumed Mel leaving to have her shadow babies was to get close to Renly, not because of the Wall.

[Armstark]

16 hours ago, Tatsuwa said:

There is a remarkable similarity in BRs cave and the Night Fort in that one entrance is down below ground level. Add to that, the entrance to the Winterfell crypts as well as the Black door of the Night Fort are down a spiral staircase. It's only my assumption but all three mirror each other. From the Black door of the Night Fort one would assume a tunnel went" up" to the other entrance. BRs cave required going up to one entrance and down to the other.  Since we have never been further down the staircase at Winterfell than the crypts it is an assumption as to what else is down there.

There is the well under the Red Keep as well, the one Varys and Ilyrio climb out off. Again with the spiral staircase.

[Brad Stark]

I don't see the similarities.  Winterfell crypts and BR's cave are nautral caves, very large and maybe even connected.

The Night Fort, anything in King's Landing and most other underground locations are artificial and in most cases, small.

[Black Crow]

4 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't see the similarities.  Winterfell crypts and BR's cave are nautral caves, very large and maybe even connected.

The Night Fort, anything in King's Landing and most other underground locations are artificial and in most cases, small.

Not necessarily. The back door to the cave of skulls is referred to by Coldhands as a sinkhole and I think that ultimately all of these wells may be natural features "improved" to one degree or another. What's important is the going into the earth.

[Black Crow]

32 minutes ago, Armstark said:

There is the well under the Red Keep as well, the one Varys and Ilyrio climb out off. Again with the spiral staircase.

[Black Crow]

40 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I thought Mel was a living human.  She has magic, and may have lived beyond her natural years, but she isn't undead and can pass.

Very dubious that she is human, but rather is fire made flesh. Compare and contrast her with Moqorro, and with Victarion and his arm. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I thought Mel was a living human.  She has magic, and may have lived beyond her nautral years, but she isn't undead and can pass.

Did Wun Wun have any problems?  Except as a physical barrier, the wall doesn't stop giants, and Direwolves can cross, or at least the mother of the Starks' did.  

Maybe the Wall only stops Others and similar undead, as well as the Warg bond.

I always assumed Mel leaving to have her shadow babies was to get close to Renly, not because of the Wall.

Melisandre needed Davos to bring her under the castle, which implies she and her shadowbaby could not pass unless brought through like Othor and Jafer were brought through the Wall.

1 hour ago, Armstark said:

There is the well under the Red Keep as well, the one Varys and Ilyrio climb out off. Again with the spiral staircase.

A staircase descending to a well is an inverted tower. Towers and inverted towers have symbolic meaning including the cycle of death and rebirth. There are many towers in this series and I believe the staircases going down are the natural inversion to towers and are consistent with all the other opposites, i.e. ice and fire, and black and white. Shout out to @WeaselPie for his towers and inverted towers info thread.

[Tatsuwa]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't see the similarities.  Winterfell crypts and BR's cave are nautral caves, very large and maybe even connected.

The Night Fort, anything in King's Landing and most other underground locations are artificial and in most cases, small.

Jon and Ygritte are in a natural cave complex when she tells him about Gendal and Gorn, BWB are in a natural under ground cave when Donderan fights Sandor and there is a description of a rather elaborate natural cave complex in the Arriane chapter from WOW.  It just seemed to me that the cave networks are multiplying so I assume there must be a connection; not sure as yet  just thinking out loud I guess

[Black Crow]

There is a theory at that all the caves are physically linked, but its not one I subscribe to. I prefer to see them as discrete [but significant] locations.

[Tatsuwa]

Just now, Black Crow said:

There is a theory at that all the caves are physically linked, but its not one I subscribe to. I prefer to see them as discrete [but significant] locations.

When the CotF flooded the neck(collapsed part of the tunnels?) it would have isolated the North from the South.  Leaf mentions an underground sea in Dance. I get flashes of old books (movies) like Jules Vernes Journey to the Center of the Earth at times and knowing GRRM is/was an avid reader it follows that bits and pieces of many classics and contemporary material may find their way into Planetos mythology.

[Dornish Neck Tie]

2 hours ago, Armstark said:

There is the well under the Red Keep as well, the one Varys and Ilyrio climb out off. Again with the spiral staircase.

Ooh, nice catch! Do you think there's another magic portal down there?

[Dornish Neck Tie]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Melisandre needed Davos to bring her under the castle, which implies she and her shadowbaby could not pass unless brought through like Othor and Jafer were brought through the Wall.

I always assumed that Mel could have gotten through; it was the shadow baby who needed a living host in Mel to carry it past the protective enchantments. Mel needed Davos because of his ability to navigate the treacherous rocks around Storm's End while remaining unnoticed.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I thought Mel was a living human.  She has magic, and may have lived beyond her nautral years, but she isn't undead and can pass.

Did Wun Wun have any problems?  Except as a physical barrier, the wall doesn't stop giants, and Direwolves can cross, or at least the mother of the Starks' did.  

Maybe the Wall only stops Others and similar undead, as well as the Warg bond.

I always assumed Mel leaving to have her shadow babies was to get close to Renly, not because of the Wall.

Hello ye olde heretics! 

I agree with this statement to some extent, but Mel isn't human in terms of her mortality or the stuff she's now made of.  Her POV in Dance with Dragons  suggests that she can eat and drink but doesn't need to; she feels pain and gets tired although she avoids sleeping.  This seems like imitation of life.  Then there is the odd situation with Beric who is repeatedly killed and brought back to life.  He can set a sword on fire with his blood confirming that the fire stuff is inside him.  I think that Mel is somewhat dead and somewhat alive.  As she says R'hllor is light and life and there can be no dark without light.  Something that she demonstrates when Davos sees her birth the shadowbaby and shine with light.    Light representing a portion of life force she has to use up in the equation along with Stannis' life force. 

Thoros says something similar about life force.  That if he had to resurrect Beric one more time; they'd both be dead. 

I think the Wall specifically keeps out the icy dead or the thing that animates them.  That's not to say that Dracula can't be invited inside in spite of the garlic.  I'm going with Othor and Jafr as a trojan horse scenario.

- Cheers!

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Hello ye olde heretics! 

I agree with this statement to some extent, but Mel isn't human in terms of her mortality or the stuff she's now made of.  Her POV in Dance with Dragons  suggests that she can eat and drink but doesn't need to; she feels pain and gets tired although she avoids sleeping.  This seems like imitation of life.  Then there is the odd situation with Beric who is repeatedly killed and brought back to life.  He can set a sword on fire with his blood confirming that the fire stuff is inside him.  I think that Mel is somewhat dead and somewhat alive.  As she says R'hllor is light and life and there can be no dark without light.  Something that she demonstrates when Davos sees her birth the shadowbaby and shine with light.    Light representing a portion of life force she has to use up in the equation along with Stannis' life force. 

Thoros says something similar about life force.  That if he had to resurrect Beric one more time; they'd both be dead. 

I think the Wall specifically keeps out the icy dead or the thing that animates them.  That's not to say that Dracula can't be invited inside in spite of the garlic.  I'm going with Othor and Jafr as a trojan horse scenario.

- Cheers!

[Armstark]

56 minutes ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

Ooh, nice catch! Do you think there's another magic portal down there?

I think the three hills in KL are former CotF burrows and the well leads down to a cave not unlike the one of the last greenseer. The Heart Tree was cut down long ago though, so I am not sure what power remains. It might also be the place where the Targaryens put the ash of their dead.

 

Visenya's hill is full of skulls and bones as well, again resembling the cave in the haunted forest.

[wolfmaid7]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm still more inclined to say that the significant bit is Mel's statement that the Wall is as much hers as Jon's - something which as ever with GRRM has the possibility of more than one layer.*

Taken in conjunction with the next line that the Wall is one of the great hinges of the world might it not, notwithstanding its outward form, be a fusion of both Ice and Fire magic, not merely a barrier against one, but the point at which both butt up against each other?

It surely is a possibility as you say,but i speak more in point of fact of what it doesn't allow.They both may have and can draw on it,but there's an aspect to the likes of Mel and Jon that the Wall doesn't allow that is the disembodied shadow aspect.

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

min (LynnS on Westeros) has an interesting theory where she likens the Wall of ice as using ice magic to fight ice magic much like firemen will fight fire with fire by burning a fire break. She thinks the Wall draws the killing cold to itself and grows stronger in the process. The larger it gets the more it effects the seasons. She thinks if it comes down it would wipe out most of the humans on Westeros, because the killing cold would be released and put out all flame/warmth.

I have to disagree with some parts of this.Winter is going to come no matter snow and cold is going to get dumped north and south of the Wall and because the High Lords and Monarchy haven't prepared for it a whole lot of people are going to die from starvation and cold.What's unusuall about "the cold" is that we have beings that can shed their skins inhabit it,ride the winds in the blizzard move from place to place and raise the dead. The Wall stops them,as long as those disembodied shadows(greenseers) can't get pass the Wall that's great.

Here's the problem and Armstark brought up an excellent point about the Tunnels,which if i remember correctly were filled in by Jon.That is still a possibility for the Cold winds to get pass the Wall,but i think it might be a bit late.This is my thing with Othor and Jaffar i don't think they had a few reason for gettng on the Wall and i think we will see that with the two bodies in the ice cells.They will be our visual cure for they aren't there for show.That's how we will know the Wall has been breached.

I like the idea of cold against cold and its something we talked about in terms of ice soughting out ice and fire soughting out fire.On the surface i think it true enough but that too is multilayered.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Hello ye olde heretics! 

I agree with this statement to some extent, but Mel isn't human in terms of her mortality or the stuff she's now made of.  Her POV in Dance with Dragons  suggests that she can eat and drink but doesn't need to; she feels pain and gets tired although she avoids sleeping.  This seems like imitation of life.  Then there is the odd situation with Beric who is repeatedly killed and brought back to life.  He can set a sword on fire with his blood confirming that the fire stuff is inside him.  I think that Mel is somewhat dead and somewhat alive.  As she says R'hllor is light and life and there can be no dark without light.  Something that she demonstrates when Davos sees her birth the shadowbaby and shine with light.    Light representing a portion of life force she has to use up in the equation along with Stannis' life force. 

Thoros says something similar about life force.  That if he had to resurrect Beric one more time; they'd both be dead. 

I think the Wall specifically keeps out the icy dead or the thing that animates them.  That's not to say that Dracula can't be invited inside in spite of the garlic.  I'm going with Othor and Jafr as a trojan horse scenario.

- Cheers!

I disagree wth this to some degree.Mel's shell is human.She has certainly undergone some alteration but outwardly that body no matter how unique is passing as human and the Wall has no gripes with that.the walls at Storm's end has no gripe with that.What it does have a gripe with as with the Wall is those beings that fall under the shaow category or to be more specific those that have no physical body.

So iam 100% in agreement and have been saying this for a long while now the Wall keeps out the disembodied froms greenseers/skinchangers or anything that seeks to enter without a body.

Dido on Othor and Jaffa as i said a few pages ago...They dropped off their package and when the cold winds that were rising right before Jon was stabbed blows on the Wall.

I expect to see the Wights in the cell rise,if their are anybody dying on the Wall they'll be dead and up soon and Jon snow to be in a battle for his very soul.But he'll be alright,a bit altered himself but in the end hell be cool.

[LynnS]

32 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I disagree wth this to some degree.Mel's shell is human.She has certainly undergone some alteration but outwardly that body no matter how unique is passing as human and the Wall has no gripes with that.the walls at Storm's end has no gripe with that.What it does have a gripe with as with the Wall is those beings that fall under the shaow category or to be more specific those that have no physical body.

I agree there is a difference between the body and the disembodied.  Whatever animates the ice wights can't pass the Wall without being taken across the barrier.  It's possible that Storm's End is warded against fire rather than ice in Melisandre's case .  The killing cold specifically contains the magic that raises the dead and transforms their bodies.  They would probably never get through the Black Gate unless it's compromised in some way;  but a man made hole in the wall doesn't have a gatekeeper.  They can still be carried across with their payload.  I think that's your loophole. 

The fact that blizzards emanate from Winterfell is curious;  but so far we haven't seen any dead raised on the other side of the Wall.  Why not?  But yes, the killing cold has slammed into the wall timed with Jon's death.  The outcome will answer a lot of questions.

 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

min (LynnS on Westeros) has an interesting theory where she likens the Wall of ice as using ice magic to fight ice magic much like firemen will fight fire with fire by burning a fire break. She thinks the Wall draws the killing cold to itself and grows stronger in the process. The larger it gets the more it effects the seasons. She thinks if it comes down it would wipe out most of the humans on Westeros, because the killing cold would be released and put out all flame/warmth.

Yes, Redriver proposed something very like that way back in I think the second Heresy thread, proposing that the wall's function was to hold back Winter itself.

Its not an unattractive theory but mindful of a hinge having two leaves I'm still inclined to see it as both Ice and Fire butted up one against the other