Does young griff have blakfyre?

[np1234]

Its been a while since I finished  ADWD and I cant remember, was young griff given the sword Blackfrye? 

[Valyrian Spoon]

Not yet, he will probably get it in the next book. Given how the sword is now connected with the Blackfyre pretenders the juries out on whether this will help or hinder his claim.

[The Twinslayer]

The last person known to have it was Bittersteel.  TWOIAF says that Bittersteel crowned Haegon Blackfyre and then staged a rebellion.  It is likely that Haegon carried Blackfyre into that rebellion.

 

TWOIAF says that Haegon was defeated by Maekar and Bloodraven and that he surrendered his sword when he was taken captive. Suggesting that House Targaryen reclaimed the sword after Haegon's rebellion.

 

So it is possible that Aegon has or will be given Blackfyre.  Rhaegar believed that Aegon was the Prince who was promised.  Rhaegar may have set Blackfyre aside for Aegon's later use, in which case Varys may have smuggled Blackfyre out of the Red Keep at the same time he rescued Aegon from the Lannisters.

[dariopatke]

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

The last person known to have it was Bittersteel.  TWOIAF says that Bittersteel crowned Haegon Blackfyre and then staged a rebellion.  It is likely that Haegon carried Blackfyre into that rebellion.

 

TWOIAF says that Haegon was defeated by Maekar and Bloodraven and that he surrendered his sword when he was taken captive. Suggesting that House Targaryen reclaimed the sword after Haegon's rebellion.

 

So it is possible that Aegon has or will be given Blackfyre.  Rhaegar believed that Aegon was the Prince who was promised.  Rhaegar may have set Blackfyre aside for Aegon's later use, in which case Varys may have smuggled Blackfyre out of the Red Keep at the same time he rescued Aegon from the Lannisters.

I like this, but wouldnt it be mentioned that Targs got their sword back? Most likely it is with Jon and will soon be given to Aegon after he proves himself.

[Trigger Warning]

Considering the sword is a major part of their claim later Blackfyre pretenders may have used the blade ceremonially and instead used regular swords in battle for fear of losing it and the legitimacy it represents, if House Targaryen had somehow reclaimed it I don't think it would go unmentioned. 

[gregg22]

After Bittersteel allegedly fled with it, Blackfyre was never mentioned as being weilded by anyone, during any of the subsequent rebellions. In fact it's absence is actually noted. This is suspicious to me since their claim is based almost entirely on Blackfyre.

My thought? Bittersteel never actually recovered it. Bloodraven saw that it had now become more valuable to the Blackfyre claim than it actually was to the true Targs, so he hid it.

Now let me get real tinfoil on ya..

The only similarly described blade in the novels is Longclaw. Longclaw is also suspicious because the Mormonts are a poor house, who hasn't even ruled Bear Island very long. Oh ya and Jorah never once mentions it. The first time we see it, the pommel is remade. Did it ever have a bear pommel?

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

There's an early draft from ADWDs that George originally had where it was heavily implied that Illyrio was gonna give Aegon the sword but it was revised so who knows honestly. George might finally bring it into the story in WoW. We'll have to wait and see. Most know about this original excerpt if they have read the blackfyre conspiracy theories but incase you haven't here it is.

"Illyrio says he wants to give Young Griff his blessings and has a gift for him in the chests. Haldon tells him there is no time for the litter. Illyrio gets angry and says there are things Griff must know. Haldon eyes Tyrion and then begins to speak in another language. Tyrion cannot tell what it is but thinks it might be Volantene. He catches a few words that come close to High Valyrian. The words he catches are, queen, dragon, and sword."

[Lord Lannister]

3 hours ago, gregg22 said:

After Bittersteel allegedly fled with it, Blackfyre was never mentioned as being weilded by anyone, during any of the subsequent rebellions. In fact it's absence is actually noted. This is suspicious to me since their claim is based almost entirely on Blackfyre.

My thought? Bittersteel never actually recovered it. Bloodraven saw that it had now become more valuable to the Blackfyre claim than it actually was to the true Targs, so he hid it.

Now let me get real tinfoil on ya..

The only similarly described blade in the novels is Longclaw. Longclaw is also suspicious because the Mormonts are a poor house, who hasn't even ruled Bear Island very long. Oh ya and Jorah never once mentions it. The first time we see it, the pommel is remade. Did it ever have a bear pommel?

I've suggested this in the past as well. Jeor's story about Longclaw's origins doesn't add up at all. If the sword was so important to House Mormont, that Jorah at his slaving worst wouldn't sell it during the time period Tywin was offering a fortune for such a sword, why would Maege send it back to the Wall instead of keeping it in the family? It's not as if House Mormont has anything against women leaders or fighters. Even if it was a men only thing, the sworn could've been kept in safekeeping for a male heir. Why would Jeor then give his family's priceless heirloom to a boy he just barely met? You mean Benjen Stark or Qhorin Halfhand or any of the other brothers of the Night's Watch never saved his life?

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I've suggested this in the past as well. Jeor's story about Longclaw's origins doesn't add up at all. If the sword was so important to House Mormont, that Jorah at his slaving worst wouldn't sell it during the time period Tywin was offering a fortune for such a sword, why would Maege send it back to the Wall instead of keeping it in the family? It's not as if House Mormont has anything against women leaders or fighters. Even if it was a men only thing, the sworn could've been kept in safekeeping for a male heir. Why would Jeor then give his family's priceless heirloom to a boy he just barely met? You mean Benjen Stark or Qhorin Halfhand or any of the other brothers of the Night's Watch never saved his life?

Would this mean that Jeor knows of Jon's true parentage? Maybe Ned told him, (or Benjen if Ned told Benjen) and told him that he was planning to send Jon to the watch when he came of age. Why would Jeor just give the sword Blackfyre with a brand new pommel to some random kid who saved his life recently? And suspiciously already have the pommel remade to a direwolf head that quickly after Jon hadn't even been a member of the watch that long?

This all makes more sense if Jeor knows who Jon really is. If not then it raises even more questions and becomes highly illogical at that point.

[Lord Lannister]

1 minute ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Would this mean that Jeor knows of Jon's true parentage? Maybe Ned told him? (or Benjen if Ned told Benjen) Why would Jeor just give the sword Blackfyre with a brand new pommel to some random kid who saved his life recently? And suspiciously already have the pommel remade to a direwolf head that quickly after Jon hadn't even been a member of the watch that long?

I'd guess a certain raven would've put the idea in his head.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

9 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'd guess a certain raven would've put the idea in his head.

I see what you're getting at here, and I'm liking the idea as well, but if this is the case it'd probably be more likely that the sword is actually Dark Sister? Granted as greg stated Blackfyre and Longclaw share more similarities but in line with historic events Dark Sister would be the more likely candidate for a sword Bloodraven has access to that he'd be able to get into Jon's hands on the wall. That is if Bloodraven was even able to take the sword with him to the wall. Most likely though Dark Sister is still with Bloodraven and Brandon north of the wall.

[Lord Lannister]

4 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

I see what you're getting at here, and I'm liking the idea as well.

Mind you this notion isn't without it's gray areas either. Bloodraven would've had the opportunity to bring the sword to castle Black if he did indeed recover it from Redgrass field. Plus this would explain why Bittersteel didn't give Blackfyre to the other pretenders he openly supported. Jeor's involvement would still be hazy too. It could be Bloodraven entrusted the sword to the Lord Commanders. It could be that Jeor just stumbled upon a nook that Bloodraven hid it in, recognized it for what it was and sat on it until the fire. Though it's fair to say either way, that raven has a tendency to nudge things along and Bloodraven could conceivably know of Jon's lineage as a greenseer.

[gregg22]

11 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'd guess a certain raven would've put the idea in his head.

Or Aemon

11 hours ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

I see what you're getting at here, and I'm liking the idea as well, but if this is the case it'd probably be more likely that the sword is actually Dark Sister? Granted as greg stated Blackfyre and Longclaw share more similarities but in line with historic events Dark Sister would be the more likely candidate for a sword Bloodraven has access to that he'd be able to get into Jon's hands on the wall. That is if Bloodraven was even able to take the sword with him to the wall. Most likely though Dark Sister is still with Bloodraven and Brandon north of the wall.

The problem with Dark Sister is that it is a longsword, whereas Blackfyre is a "bastard" or "hand-and-a-half" sword (halfway between a great sword and a longsword). The fact is that the only two Valyrian steel bastard swords ever mentioned in the novels are Blackfyre and Longclaw. It could just be drawing a parallel, but still Longlclaw is VERY suspicious.

11 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Mind you this notion isn't without it's gray areas either. Bloodraven would've had the opportunity to bring the sword to castle Black if he did indeed recover it from Redgrass field. Plus this would explain why Bittersteel didn't give Blackfyre to the other pretenders he openly supported. Jeor's involvement would still be hazy too. It could be Bloodraven entrusted the sword to the Lord Commanders. It could be that Jeor just stumbled upon a nook that Bloodraven hid it in, recognized it for what it was and sat on it until the fire. Though it's fair to say either way, that raven has a tendency to nudge things along and Bloodraven could conceivably know of Jon's lineage as a greenseer.

Bloodraven could have entrusted it to Aemon when they went to the wall, or before he disappeared. More conjecture here, but it would not be out of character for Ned to tell LC Mormont the truth of Jon's heritage. Remember, he's carried the burden of hiding Jon for many years, he may not transfer that burden to the LC of the Watch unknowingly. Better that Mormont knows, in case the truth is learned it could jeopardize the Watch. This way he wont be blindsided.

It bothers me that Mormont Keep is essentially a log cabin, not even a castle, yet they can afford a Valyrian steel bastard sword. They are by FAR the poorest house to own one.

It bothers me that Jorah never mentions Longclaw, even after Danerys promises him a Valyrian Steel sword.

It bothers me that Jon had no idea that the Mormonts even had a ancestral blade before Joer hands it to him.

The re-made pommel thing is suspicious.

Then there is Blackfyre. If it truly was the key to the Kingdom that the Blackfyres believed it to be, why did Daemon II not have it Whitewalls? "He doesn't have the sword" they said. Bittersteel had to know that the sword is what potential supporters would look for. Why is it missing???

I'll leave you with this:

There are only two characters in ASOIAF named Qhorin

Qhorin Volmark - Killed by Aegon with Blackfyre

Qhorin Half-hand - Killed by Jon Snow with Longclaw

The Half-hand's name predicts his death for gods sake! He has a "hand-and-a-half" just like the sword.

 

[Valyrian Spoon]

8 minutes ago, gregg22 said:

Then there is Blackfyre. If it truly was the key to the Kingdom that the Blackfyres believed it to be, why did Daemon II not have it Whitewalls? "He doesn't have the sword" they said. Bittersteel had to know that the sword is what potential supporters would look for. Why is it missing???

 

I just assumed that Bittersteel didn't give Daemon II Blackfyre because he didn't support him in general. (Perhaps he knew about Daemons possible homosexuality and possible relationship with Alyn Cockshaw).

The conspirators seemed to think that a fixed tournament and a Blackfyre pretender with a dragon egg would inspire some lords to support another rebellion. 

[gregg22]

5 hours ago, Valyrian Spoon said:

I just assumed that Bittersteel didn't give Daemon II Blackfyre because he didn't support him in general. (Perhaps he knew about Daemons possible homosexuality and possible relationship with Alyn Cockshaw).

The conspirators seemed to think that a fixed tournament and a Blackfyre pretender with a dragon egg would inspire some lords to support another rebellion. 

You are right it doesn't seem like he supported Daemon II. But he did support Jargon on the 3rd rebellion and Daemon III in the 4th. There doesn't seem to be a mention of them wielding Blackfyre.

[Valyrian Spoon]

4 hours ago, gregg22 said:

You are right it doesn't seem like he supported Daemon II. But he did support Jargon on the 3rd rebellion and Daemon III in the 4th. There doesn't seem to be a mention of them wielding Blackfyre.

Hmm you are right, the last confirmed sighting of Blackfyre seems to be the Redgrass Field. Even if they had it during the third rebellion Haegon was killed and Bittersteel was captured so presumably the sword would have been recovered but there is no mention of it.

[gregg22]

Yes Haegon..i must disable auto correct to type in these forms!

 

[YOVMO]

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 2:35 AM, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Would this mean that Jeor knows of Jon's true parentage? Maybe Ned told him,

More likely that Benjen learned about it on a ranging when he came upon Bloodraven (probably lured there much like bran only Benjen had a much easier time in getting there). This way, Benjen and subsequently Mormont can know without Ned breaking his promise to Lyanna

[YOVMO]

14 hours ago, Valyrian Spoon said:

Hmm you are right, the last confirmed sighting of Blackfyre seems to be the Redgrass Field. Even if they had it during the third rebellion Haegon was killed and Bittersteel was captured so presumably the sword would have been recovered but there is no mention of it.

Yes, Ser Eustice is last time see it. Lord Butterwell said of Daemon II "“He does not bear the sword! If he were his father's son, Bittersteel would have armed him with Blackfyre.”

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

6 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

More likely that Benjen learned about it on a ranging when he came upon Bloodraven (probably lured there much like bran only Benjen had a much easier time in getting there). This way, Benjen and subsequently Mormont can know without Ned breaking his promise to Lyanna

Well if the promise was just to protect Jon from Robert, telling Benjen wouldn't be a risk to the child's safety since Benjen would still be Jon's uncle either way. Also telling the LC of the Nightswatch wouldn't be a huge risk either as men of the Nightswatch swear to not get involved in the conflicts in the south. So Jeor wouldn't be going to tell Robert.

 

To be honest here either of our explanations could work who knows, Longclaw could simply not be Blackfyre and all this speculation will have been for nothing lol