What it takes for someone to be a good leader?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

What the title said. What are the characteristics a good leader should have?

 

 

edit: I took out my opinion because it seemed like people thought that my opinion was the topic of the thread.

[dornishdragon]

I tend to agree with your definition however there is one aspect that you didn't mention that a good leader must have which is a certain ruthlessness that ensures the continuation of his work on dificult times. I don't mean that a good leader must be devoid of emotion but it must be prepared to make tough decisions that are unpopular can apear to be unfair, to give an example, the CEO of a company with negative returns should be able to lay off workers. 

Also the virtues or atleast their importance change depending upon the situation. In a war a military commander must be brave, but in peace times he should be prudent, moderate and fair above all. 

[Ser Creighton]

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What the title said. What are the characteristics a good leader should have?

In my case I agree with Plato's characteristics for the ideal leader.

 

According to Plato the ideal leader should rule with some leadership principles:

• Moderation
• Unity
• Reforming
• Judgment
• Dialectic

 

The Virtues that a leader must have:

• Wisdom-discipline to his instincts
• Prudence-Moderation is the best
• Bravery
• Justice

 

Also a leader has to be altruistic, he safe people who need him without prejudice, sees the big picture, is practical, is willing to learn and learns fast, is not afraid of getting his hands dirty and is overall a good person.

So you're saying a leader has to be a man? Seems kind of sexist.

In Plato's Utopia (Republic) he essentially wanted all freedoms abolished, all children were to be given to the state, to be raised by the state and given work by the state. Citizens would have no rights only obligations to the state. The only freedoms being allowed to upper rulers of the state, the Philosophers like himself and the Guardians.

Later on in Laws he would attempt to describe a more realistic city that had a slave cast.

Republic was based on a 3 class system, the first class the rulers were obligated to rule. The third class was obligated to feed, house and build everything for everyone while the first class reaped all the benefits. While he put women on an equal guardianship level to men, the private sphere which they were relegated to was abolished. Women would thus be trapped in the role essentially being a mating partner for males as long as they were deemed suitable to the male. You can be a warrior or a philosopher but first they must do their duty and have children and raise them, for that was their first civic duty.

Most modern feminists argue that while some of his ideas were revolutionary for women in the context of the time, they were never really attainable for women in his ideal state and thus hollow. Much like his principles for leadership which really left the social elite in power and control and gave little hope for the advancement. Plato had a lot of "well look at how great this will be for the lesser classes we are going to do all this great stuff so people can rise up" when their was never really any chance for them to rise up. Plato's great emancipation of women and lesser classes was actually the removal of individual freedoms. Essentially civic roles replace freedoms. So it's like you were emancipated to fill this civic role that was very rigid and offered little in the way of emancipation but conformed to one mans ideals. It's also more difficult to translate to our own era, as most arguments including mine are over simplified do to the cultural and temporal gaps.

Not to say the OP post on Plato's Philosopher King is over simplified, but leadership is not exactly broken down into ones own biased check list which lacks any in depth insight into the class systems and culture of Westeros. Plato's 3 classes were ruled by the Philosophers like himself and the guardians.  His guardians, who could be male or female were all citizens. Though they had no right to property, they really had no right to anything other than his ideals. Women could belong to any class, but, there was that one flaw, it was their obligation to generate children for the Republic. It's rather hard to be a warrior when one is pregnant and it's not like he did not know this. Also the responsibility to raise the child, feed the child, and care for the child were placed on them. Granting them little time for much else.

Plato's Philosopher King, Kind of like he was a Philosopher and thought his own ideals should control the lives of everyone in Greece. Also the ruler must be male. That only Philosophers had any ideas. Note how well this all leans towards who he is. Plato is sometimes identified with being the root of Totalitarianism. His Utopia being a lie about freedom while rooting everyone in civic Duty to be ruled by a Philosopher King. You could end up with a Marcus Aurelius, or you could get Stalin, different parts of the same tree so to speak. 

It's not enough to say they must have high ideals, when there is no perspective given. Your ideals, Plato's ideals the ideals of Westeros? It gets very grey when no context is given and even more so when you cross into cultural and temporal gaps, let alone ones that don't actually exist in an imaginary world that exists in one persons head.

 

I am sure that this will in some way relate to your existing John Bias, but for Plato, Sam would of been considered a better ruler given his love of wisdom. For him the Maesters should be the first tier, while the Guardians would be made up of the Tywins of the world, and everyone else would need to do what they say. Build the the roads, grow and harvest, and so on. And at the top would be a Philosopher King. Someone like Oberyn who showed great aptitude at the Citadel and as a Warrior and had many children with many women and was politically savvy. If not for his stature Tyrion would be above all here. 

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

12 hours ago, Ser Creighton said:

So you're saying a leader has to be a man? Seems kind of sexist.

Utter bs. 

12 hours ago, Ser Creighton said:

In Plato's Utopia (Republic) he essentially wanted all freedoms abolished, all children were to be given to the state, to be raised by the state and given work by the state. Citizens would have no rights only obligations to the state. The only freedoms being allowed to upper rulers of the state, the Philosophers like himself and the Guardians.

I know but that doesn't mean that his ideal leader isn't correct.

12 hours ago, Ser Creighton said:

Later on in Laws he would attempt to describe a more realistic city that had a slave cast.[snip]world that exists in one persons head.

That part has absolutely nothing to do with the op. This thread isn't a philosophical analysis and isn't about how you believe that Plato was wrong it has to do with what it takes for someone to be a good leader. 

12 hours ago, Ser Creighton said:

I am sure that this will in some way relate to your existing John Bias, but for Plato, Sam would of been considered a better ruler given his love of wisdom. For him the Maesters should be the first tier, while the Guardians would be made up of the Tywins of the world, and everyone else would need to do what they say. Build the the roads, grow and harvest, and so on. And at the top would be a Philosopher King. Someone like Oberyn who showed great aptitude at the Citadel and as a Warrior and had many children with many women and was politically savvy. If not for his stature Tyrion would be above all here. 

Also nothing to do with the op.

I am sure that this will in some way relate to your existing John Bias,

I love how you bringing Jon into this something that hides personal attack, when I have never mentioned him in that thread. It seems that unlike Jon you are prejudiced against me.

So your whole post has nothing to do with what it takes for someone to be a good leader and its sole purpose is to be snide. If you can't or don't want to contribute then why bother answering and spamming?

[John Doe]

2 hours ago, Ser Creighton said:

So you're saying a leader has to be a man? Seems kind of sexist.

I'm sure that was the point the OP wanted to get across. Or it could have been a minor oversight. Take your pick. 

In asoiaf, I think Stannis fulfills most of these criteria, after him I'd name Jon. Tywin was a great leader, but lacked justice. Renly may or may not have been a good ruler too, he died too early to be sure. Doran is perceived as weak even by his own people, which shouldn't be the case. Of the others I think every one has major flaws. 

[norwaywolf123]

1. Of the leaders in ASOIAf who is most succesfull?

2. Which leaders follow Plato's ideals for leadership to the largest extent?

3. What is the virtues leader have had?

Leaders

- Tywin Lannister

- Tyrion Lannister

- Robb Stark

- Jon Snow

- Theon Greyjoy

- Stannis Baratheon

- Renly Baratheon

- Arianne Martell

- Daenerys Targaryen

 

 

[King Ned Stark]

I think the most important trait of a leader is servitude, service to your people.  Much like how a mother or a father leads the family; you tell them when to brush their teeth, to eat their vegetables, when it is bedtime, but they are first among you.  The leader takes on the burdens and hardships and dangers.  Not a direct apples to apples analogy, but I've always remembered a line from Braveheart, "you think your people exist to provide you with position, I think your position exists to provide your people with freedom."

[Jon's Queen Consort]

16 hours ago, John Doe said:

Or it could have been a minor oversight.

This. That is what we use in my first language and I just translate it without paying attention. What is the correct pronoun?

16 hours ago, John Doe said:

I'm sure that was the point the OP wanted to get across. Or it could have been a minor oversight. Take your pick. 

In asoiaf, I think Stannis fulfills most of these criteria, after him I'd name Jon. Tywin was a great leader, but lacked justice. Renly may or may not have been a good ruler too, he died too early to be sure. Doran is perceived as weak even by his own people, which shouldn't be the case. Of the others I think every one has major flaws. 

I agree on Stannis. He is really underestimated when it comes to leadership and people see only Mel's influence on him.

14 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

I think the most important trait of a leader is servitude, service to your people.  Much like how a mother or a father leads the family; you tell them when to brush their teeth, to eat their vegetables, when it is bedtime, but they are first among you.  The leader takes on the burdens and hardships and dangers.  Not a direct apples to apples analogy, but I've always remembered a line from Braveheart, "you think your people exist to provide you with position, I think your position exists to provide your people with freedom."

Great point! I had never thought about that but you are right.

[blckp]

seems  like BS things that works in Disney story

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, blckp said:

seems  like BS things that works in Disney story

The work of one of the greatest philosophers of all time, the man who created the first university in the West and whose work has survived for 2.500 years is bs according to some people here. 

 Also you are off topic.

12 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

snip

sorry about that but how is that on topic?

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

You could make a very interesting point that today's leaders and ASOIAF the top qualities that a person could possess might actually be different.

The answer is a slightly more mature (next book) Jon and you guys can suck it up and admit it. 

ASOIAF Qualities in Order (it's feudalism) 

Unity

Wisdom (flip flop this with unity I don't care.) 

"Good" (as in my list) people around and in charge of other major and minor and tiny locations 

This could possibly be #1 but with a world of magic and dragons and hell zombies (who happen to not be on fire) Can we please put Awareness which would include everything from national security to friends/enemies I tried to put this on the unity part but I took a turn with that. (The future) also fits with wisdom but this is too important I think understanding all the magic is as important as anything.

Import/export profit aka Your WHOLE MONEY SITUATION (good leaders increase this) and by the way no one has really figured this one out so good luck all you better financial minds than my own. 

Reforming (their world is stuck in time) that's why the unity is so important.... they could possibly get out of this hole together and flourish (Good Leaders)

Holding no prejudices (slavery obviously included) 

Judgement isn't as high as you think actually (writing the correct laws and issuing fair and possibly positive (work-related) punishments instead of wasting your life in a cell. is more important than " fetching the block" something my country which is America has miserably failed at 

 I've always admired tywin's patience and willingness to hear his people around him.  Even though he thought of all those ideas himself. Very thorough ( it seems the West had good men around tywin)

 I missed plenty and Plato is outdated and a utopia is in fact fantasy. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

In my case I agree with Plato's characteristics for the ideal leader.

According to Plato the ideal leader should rule with some leadership principles:

• Moderation
• Unity
• Reforming
• Judgment
• Dialectic

 

The Virtues that a leader must have:

• Wisdom-discipline to his instincts
• Prudence-Moderation is the best
• Bravery
• Justice

 

Also a leader has to be altruistic, he saves people who need him without prejudice, sees the big picture, is practical, is willing to learn and learns fast, is not afraid of getting his hands dirty and is overall a good person.

[Jen'ari]

Pragmatism, Megalomania and raging Psychopathy.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Lord Sidious said:

Pragmatism, Megalomania and raging Psychopathy.

We are talking about Westeros Palpatine not the Empire.  

[Jen'ari]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

We are talking about Westeros Palpatine not the Empire.  

Same rules apply, look at Maegor, he was an excellent King.

[Roswell]

1. Loyalty to the people you're leading.  This is a basic requirement for a leader.  But this is also something that Jon failed to do when he betrayed the Night's Watch to rescue his little sister. 
2. Honor your vows and your oaths to your allies.  Be worthy of trust.  Again, this is basic but something that Robb was a failure at.  He made promises to the Freys.  The Freys became one of his biggest, if not the biggest contributor, lost a son and fought bravely for Robb.  Robb then turns around and breaks his oath to them. 
3. Maintain and uphold high standards for everyone, especially yourself.  This is, once again, something that Jon was a failure at.  He executed Janos Slynt for initially refusing to comply with an order and being belligerent about it.  There is nothing necessarily wrong with being harsh.  But Jon at this time was actively engaged in something more egregious and more serious than Janos.  Jon set Mance loose to rescue his sister and he started a war with the Boltons.  Jon failed to uphold standards.  He held Slynt accountable to a high standard, while he allowed himself to commit treason.  Easy to see why Marsh would want to execute him.
4. Team Player.  Catelyn was not a team player when she released Jaime Lannister and hurt her side.  I acknowledge that Rickard Karstark was also not a team player. 
5. Good communicator. 

Those are the basics that a leader should be able to do. 

[King Ned Stark]

@The Transporter, I take it your not a Jon fan?  No matter, to each his own.

1. The Nights Watch betrayed their oath, to protect the realms of men, instead they thought it more prudent to bury their heads in the sand, or snow as it were.

2. Yeah, Robb broke an oath, but leadership qualities is a subjective thing, which is what JQC asked with the OP.  No leader, no matter if you're a Tywin or Ned fan, can always be a perfect leader.  Some might say that Robb showed leadership qualities by owning up to his mistake, by not casting the girl aside and trying to make amends with the Freys; who, if we're all honest with each, overreached with their demands for letting the Stark's cross, and were tap-dancing themselves with oathbreaking by not helping their liege lord.  They swore no oath to Joffrey Hill.

3. Rescue being the keyword, Arya, or fArya, was kidnapped by the Boltons, a ruse to usurp the north and by proxy weaken the Watch.  Ramsay threatened, IIRC, to obliterate the Watch, and this is the man Marsh wants to placate by handing over the very people who saved you in your hour of need?

4. Catelyn did what she did out of a mother's grief, I would loose Jaime and ten more just like him if it meant a remote possibility of getting my kids back.  Maybe that means I'm unfit to lead, dunno.  As Aemon said, love is the bane of duty (or honor).

[Protagoras]

I will interpret this question as: how to be successful and not have to act as a leader I would personally like. 

Inspiring people enough to them follow you - both short term and long term.

You need to be intelligent, pragmatic and ruthless enough to  work your vision at the same time have enough honor and virtue to not piss them off. You also need to be decisive and supportive at your crew at the same time. 

Excellent diplomacy skill in order to avoid conflict following from above. Making people willingly work against their own self-interest is great leadership.

Don´t hesitate to use force if needed, yet don´t use it as a standard solution. 

 

[blckp]

19 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

The work of one of the greatest philosophers of all time, the man who created the first university in the West and whose work has survived for 2.500 years is bs according to some people here. 

 

 

so its from 2500 years ago? no wonder why it sounded so stupid and naive ,lol

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 hours ago, blckp said:

so its from 2500 years ago? no wonder why it sounded so stupid and naive ,lol

You know better than a genius who has changed humanity with his work and has created the first university in West. Have you something to say on topic?

I just noticed something. You seemed surprised about how old Plato's ideas are which mean that you don't know Plato. Is that right?