Between Sansa and Daenerys, who would make the better ruling Queen?

[Tucu]

3 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

I agree with you that it is the main moral struggle for Danaerys, but that doesn't change the fact that saying she is a poor leader because she abolished slavery is ridiculous. 

in America the economy used to be built on slavery as well (just like meereen), then someone came along and decided to change that (Lincoln), though many people (even some slaves) objected to the idea (meereen people), it was widely known that without the free labor slavery provided the economy would take a hit (just like in meereen) but Lincoln did it anyways because he knew it was right.  Than man is regarded as a hero, and one of the greatest leaders America has ever known.  Not to mention that eventually the economy righted itself and boomed.

 

And you say it makes her a poor leader.  I think Lincoln makes my point for me

She is not a poor leader because she freed the slaves. She is a bad leader for the methods used, the failure to anticipate consequences of her actions and her abandonment of the people of Astapor and Meereen. She is not in the same league as Aegon I or in the league of Tywin; at the moment she is not even in the same league as Robert.

[Britisher]

31 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

I agree with you that it is the main moral struggle for Danaerys, but that doesn't change the fact that saying she is a poor leader because she abolished slavery is ridiculous. 

in America the economy used to be built on slavery as well (just like meereen), then someone came along and decided to change that (Lincoln), though many people (even some slaves) objected to the idea (meereen people), it was widely known that without the free labor slavery provided the economy would take a hit (just like in meereen) but Lincoln did it anyways because he knew it was right.  Than man is regarded as a hero, and one of the greatest leaders America has ever known.  Not to mention that eventually the economy righted itself and boomed.

 

And you say it makes her a poor leader.  I think Lincoln makes my point for me

Actually Lincoln did it to avoid a "House Divided" (having the United States split apart into two separate nations): he was actually quite passive to the slave trade, though he was more inclined towards abolition. That doesn't change the facts: many former slaves were forced back into subservient labour, forced to sign exploitative contracts. The recovery was gradual, with the South left in economic/social ruin.

And what did we have? Violence and social problems which remain to this day. Over 200,000 men were killed in the Civil War alone (that's ignoring the KKK/Sons of the Harpy etc.)...

In Great Britain we had a gradual, peaceful abolition of the slave trade

[Britisher]

7 minutes ago, Tucu said:

She is not a poor leader because she freed the slaves. She is a bad leader for the methods used, the failure to anticipate consequences of her actions and her abandonment of the people of Astapor and Meereen. She is not in the same league as Aegon I or in the league of Tywin; at the moment she is not even in the same league as Robert.

Exactly.

[Britisher]

Multiple post !

[Britisher]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

There's no famine in Meereen, or anything approaching famine.  The Bloody Flux came with the refugees from Astapor. However, the influx of former slaves has resulted in wage rates falling sharply.  And, the City is hard hit by blockade and siege (however half-hearted).  Neither the blockade nor the siege can be blamed on Dany.

We are told that there are "thousands" of slaves working on estates in the countryside.  Whether the workers are slave or free, those estates still provide crops and livestock, and presumably, generate a surplus sufficient to feed a very large city.  That's a big agricultural economy (indeed, in almost any medieval State, agriculture provided the bulk of economic output).  Meereen's territories extend at least 150 miles upriver, so there is still a lot of land that wasn't burned by the Great Masters.  From what we're told of the region, I expect that the climate sustains the kind of agriculture you'd find in North Africa/Southern Spain.

WRT slavery, one can pass laws for more humane treatment of slaves, without abolishing the institution.  However, there is no way at all that one can trade in slaves humanely.  Dany could have just taken over the Meereenese slave trade, and probably made a lot of money out of it, but I think it's to her credit that she stopped it.  I appreciate that will cause economic hardship to some inhabitants of Meereen, but that's tough.

The Bloody Flux (dysentery) thrives in heavily populated areas of poor hygiene/sanitation.

The Masters of Meereen stripped their lands of food and scorched them: we know that Daenerys had no means of supplying her armies with food to starve the Masters out: she had to storm the city or move on - this implicitly suggests that the estates on the Hinterlands of Meereen are not based in agriculture/livestock (it's implied that they are vineyards). The estates are worked by slaves, so Daenerys' hold here is dubious at best...

The Masters had a two-year supply of food in the city for the existing population in the city (remember we've had a substantial population increase from the former slaves of Astapor and Yunkai/a decline through the Bloody Flux). Daenerys has no hold on the hinterlands of Meereen: she has no supply of food.

[Britisher]

19 minutes ago, Britisher said:

The Bloody Flux (dysentery) thrives in heavily populated areas of poor hygiene/sanitation.

The Masters of Meereen stripped their lands of food and scorched them: we know that Daenerys had no means of supplying her armies with food to starve the Masters out: she had to storm the city or move on - this implicitly suggests that the estates on the Hinterlands of Meereen are not based in agriculture/livestock (it's implied that they are vineyards). The estates are worked by slaves, so Daenerys' hold here is dubious at best...

The Masters had a two-year supply of food in the city for the existing population in the city (remember we've had a substantial population increase from the former slaves of Astapor and Yunkai/a decline through the Bloody Flux). Daenerys has no hold on the hinterlands of Meereen: she has no supply of food.

Actually ignore this, I'm totally wrong here! (Staring right at me in the next chapter of my re-read ):

Quote

Ser Barristan remained. "Our stores are ample for the moment," he reminded her, "and Your Grace has planted beans and grapes and wheat. Your Dothraki have harried the slavers from the hills and struck their shackles from their slaves. They are planting too, and will be bringing their crops to Meereen to market. And you will have the friendship of Lhazar."

 

[Firefae]

Sansa. She is young, but learning everyday since we first read about her. She knows the court of KL and is learning to play her own game.

Daenerys is a conqueror. Dragons don't plant trees. Dany as a queen will end in fire and blood. 

[Lord Wraith]

10 hours ago, spauldo17 said:

I agree with you that it is the main moral struggle for Danaerys, but that doesn't change the fact that saying she is a poor leader because she abolished slavery is ridiculous. 

in America the economy used to be built on slavery as well (just like meereen), then someone came along and decided to change that (Lincoln), though many people (even some slaves) objected to the idea (meereen people), it was widely known that without the free labor slavery provided the economy would take a hit (just like in meereen) but Lincoln did it anyways because he knew it was right.  Than man is regarded as a hero, and one of the greatest leaders America has ever known.  Not to mention that eventually the economy righted itself and boomed.

 

And you say it makes her a poor leader.  I think Lincoln makes my point for me

Wow you really don't understand Lincoln and the Civil War. Also Lincoln does absolutely nothing to make your point.

10 hours ago, Tucu said:

She is not a poor leader because she freed the slaves. She is a bad leader for the methods used, the failure to anticipate consequences of her actions and her abandonment of the people of Astapor and Meereen. She is not in the same league as Aegon I or in the league of Tywin; at the moment she is not even in the same league as Robert.

Precisely. I don't think anyone is going to argue that freeing the slaves is a bad thing. She destroyed the whole social/political/economic stability of the region and didn't do anything to fix it. She conquered and left leaving more chaos, destruction, and death than would be if she had never gone to Slavers Bay.

Dragons really aren't good at planting trees it would seem.

[blckp]

Daenerys is the best leader in game of thrones, she is cunning good at scheming ,she is brave , she is gentle and can be ruthlessness when needs, she is so fucking smart, good at almost everything and she does impossible hard things

 

tywin? lol wtf would he do if he was trying to give freedom to people? he would fail miserably and die,old fart

 

who else? littlefinger? he wouldn't even able to conquer cities,

sansa? hahaha ,what she gonna do?  cry and ask LF help her?

jon snow? lol dumb moron ,cant even imagine what this moron can do

 

as for those who crying and screaming dany is so bad she stopped peope being sold? what they gonna do without selling people, blah blah, - they gonna develop like braavosi or other free cities and they will have real economic not this capture slave,sell slave thing, stop this 99% people income being 0 shit

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Wow you really don't understand Lincoln and the Civil War. Also Lincoln does absolutely nothing to make your point.

Precisely. I don't think anyone is going to argue that freeing the slaves is a bad thing. She destroyed the whole social/political/economic stability of the region and didn't do anything to fix it. She conquered and left leaving more chaos, destruction, and death than would be if she had never gone to Slavers Bay.

Dragons really aren't good at planting trees it would seem.

She's only been in power for about 18 months.  It's hard to stabilise a country in that time.

Moreover, I doubt if there is any peaceful, non-disruptive way of bringing the Essos slave trade to an end.  The slave traders aren't going to bring it to an end voluntarily;  many of them are unwilling to co-exist with a free Meereen, because they think that Dany's example of ending slavery will provoke revolution in their own cities (it seems that the slaves in Volantis have heard of what has happened in Meeren, and are about to revolt against their masters).

As it happens, Dany is trying to do something to fix the situation, by stimulating agriculture, and negotiating a trade agreement with Lhazar. She'd be willing to trade with the other city states in the area too, but they prefer blockade and war. 

[khal drogon]

On Thursday, September 01, 2016 at 3:20 PM, INCBlackbird said:

I don't know if you're aware but when people are crucified nails are hammered through their wrists and feet and they are hung up like that until they die. it's one of the most horrible ways to be killed and Dany does that to 163 random people because she was angry, in the maintime making her self into a hypocrite and lowering herself to their level. because yeah crucifying someone because they (or someone they are associated with) crucified someone, that's really gonna fix the problem...

I know that Dany means well, but she get scary when she's angry. I mean... the crucifying isn't the only thing, there's the torturing and all the killing. I expect any leader in any kind of world that I would support to be better than that, otherwise I can't support them.

Yeah but there are hardly people in leadership who don't practice cruelty. I am not exactly defending her cruelty but I could understand her. She did grow up in Essos where cruelty is the norm. In that part of the world honor and chivalry don't work or they are unknown. If she went soft on those slavers she can't survive. Anyway I do agree that this type of cruelty will look out of place in Westeros. For that she has to mellow down. As of now she is as wild as Drogon which nicely parallels her story arc. But in the future I think both will grow into a different role.

[khal drogon]

7 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Wow you really don't understand LincolnQnd the Civil War. Also Lincoln does absolutely nothing to make your point.

Precisely. I don't think anyone is going to argue that freeing the slaves is a bad thing. She destroyed the whole social/political/economic stability of the region and didn't do anything to fix it. She conquered and left leaving more chaos, destruction, and death than would be if she had never gone to Slavers Bay.

Dragons really aren't good at planting trees it would seem.

Didn't do anything to fix it? Time for a reread. 

Did you forget her sending envoys to Lhazar? Did you forget her trying to trade salt and wine and goods to Qarth. Did you forget her marrying a local and opening fighting pits to keep political stability? Did you forget the peace deal with the Yunkaii? If you say she didn't try to fix anything then you are reading a different book.

[OuttaOldtown]

23 hours ago, SeanF said:

Sansa comes over as being stupid and stuck-up, to begin with, but she matures.

Her maturity is so overblown, she's still a snooty entitled monstrosity..

So basically since Dany failed to abolish slavery in a perfect manner she's not qualified to be a leader, but a girl who hasn't done a damn thing to improve life for the unprivileged is? In ither words no experience whatsoever is a positive to most of the fan base to be a leader..

[Dya of Oldstones]

On 9/1/2016 at 7:49 AM, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I think the comparaison is unfair to both characters.

There is no "who would" here; the one is a ruling queen and the other is nothing remotely close to it. A "learning to lead" type of re-read focusing on Sansa would be painfully short (because that's not her arc).

There's a record of facts regarding Daenerys' rulership, upon which readers can base their assessements. Mine tends more to the negative, overall, though I appreciate good intentions and some positive qualities. Sansa, too, has some qualities that could be great for a ruler (like, being mostly cool-headed) and some others that are very negative (like, her tendency to "adjust" reality to her comfort level), but since her own record is blank, a reader is free to imagine which of her character's aspects would manifest in her ruling. In my opinion Sansa might, under certain very favourable conditions, to eventually become a decent ruler (but I suppose that the same could be said for Dany as well, so there's that).

Based on the above, the comparaison is unfair to Daenerys, because her failings are juxtaposed to a character's who doesn't have any (because she's never tested, but still). It's equally unfair to Sansa, because her (lack of) accomplishments are compared to a character's who has had, since early in the story, an immense amount of power that Sansa has never had not even a chance to wield.

To be frank though, I wouldn't choose either to decide the fate of me and mine.

This is fairly close to my take on it as well. As far as the Iron Throne goes, there hasn't been a POV character sit on it yet and I suspect that may be the case by the end of the ADOS. Add to that both are still fairly young, and Westeros has already had 2 child monarchs in a row.

[Hodor the Articulate]

13 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Didn't do anything to fix it? Time for a reread. 

Did you forget her sending envoys to Lhazar? Did you forget her trying to trade salt and wine and goods to Qarth. Did you forget her marrying a local and opening fighting pits to keep political stability? Did you forget the peace deal with the Yunkaii? If you say she didn't try to fix anything then you are reading a different book.

It's ridiculous how often the "dragons plant no trees" quote is tossed out, but no one acknowledges that Dany did plant trees. They may not have fruited yet, but you can't expect Meereen to immediately adjust to a huge social upheaval.

[Lord Wraith]

17 hours ago, SeanF said:

She's only been in power for about 18 months.  It's hard to stabilise a country in that time.

Moreover, I doubt if there is any peaceful, non-disruptive way of bringing the Essos slave trade to an end.  The slave traders aren't going to bring it to an end voluntarily;  many of them are unwilling to co-exist with a free Meereen, because they think that Dany's example of ending slavery will provoke revolution in their own cities (it seems that the slaves in Volantis have heard of what has happened in Meeren, and are about to revolt against their masters).

As it happens, Dany is trying to do something to fix the situation, by stimulating agriculture, and negotiating a trade agreement with Lhazar. She'd be willing to trade with the other city states in the area too, but they prefer blockade and war. 

 

16 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Didn't do anything to fix it? Time for a reread. 

Did you forget her sending envoys to Lhazar? Did you forget her trying to trade salt and wine and goods to Qarth. Did you forget her marrying a local and opening fighting pits to keep political stability? Did you forget the peace deal with the Yunkaii? If you say she didn't try to fix anything then you are reading a different book.

My bad, she is trying to fix things but she is failing because she doesn't understand economics well or the cultures of the regions that she is trying to change. That is what I meant to say. Most of the Essos survives because of the slade trade and smashing the epicenter of that trade and then expecting that people will still want to work with you is insane.

Quote

In his honor Daenerys had donned a Qartheen gown, a sheer confection of violet samite cut so as to leave her left breast bare. Her silver-gold hair brushed lightly over her shoulder, falling almost to her nipple. Half the men in the hall had stolen glances at her, but not Xaro. It was the same in Qarth. She could not sway the merchant prince that way. Sway him I must, however. He had come from Qarth upon the galleas Silken Cloud with thirteen galleys sailing attendance, his fleet an answered prayer. Meereen's trade had dwindled away to nothing since she had ended slavery, but Xaro had the power to restore it.

The economic condition of Slaver's Bay is in direct action to her conquest. My point is her failings if because she doesn't take the time to understand others. She does what she thinks is right without considering others. Don't get me wrong slavery is bad and I am glad she is trying to get rid of the vile institution but she has burned the bridges with basically all of Essos sans Braavosi and the Far East then acts surprised about it

[Shierak Qiya]

Daenerys all the way.  Sansa is not even close to queen material. 

Dany led her small Khalasar through the Red Waste, found a way to free the Unsullied from their slave master, and liberated a half-million slaves in Meereen.  She has plenty of courage and demonstrated that many times over.  Daenerys proved her intelligence time and again.  That scene when she first met Belwas.  The eunuch made fun of the Dothraki.  Dany gave him a stern rebuke but tempered it soon after.  She won Belwas over.  That is what a good leader will do.

Sansa is a selfish, self serving little Brat.  Sansa is not fit to lead at anything. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

7 hours ago, Franklin VI said:

Daenerys all the way.  Sansa is not even close to queen material. 

Dany led her small Khalasar through the Red Waste, found a way to free the Unsullied from their slave master, and liberated a half-million slaves in Meereen.  She has plenty of courage and demonstrated that many times over.  Daenerys proved her intelligence time and again.  That scene when she first met Belwas.  The eunuch made fun of the Dothraki.  Dany gave him a stern rebuke but tempered it soon after.  She won Belwas over.  That is what a good leader will do.

Sansa is a selfish, self serving little Brat.  Sansa is not fit to lead at anything. 

Do you remember that Dany became a slaver herself? I guess that you chose to forget it.

[teej6]

17 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

It's ridiculous how often the "dragons plant no trees" quote is tossed out, but no one acknowledges that Dany did plant trees. They may not have fruited yet, but you can't expect Meereen to immediately adjust to a huge social upheaval.

The point is she tried and failed and as of her last chapter in ADWD, she's given up on peace and society building in favor of fire and blood, doom and destruction for all that oppose her, not a very good trait for a good ruler, wouldn't you say. 

[sia345]

Sansa. I think she is intelligent. She learns quickly. She has learned how to manipulate people. She will work well with the nobles. She has the best connection to the biggest houses in Westeros. People easily like her. She is kind-hearted. Like rest of the Starks she does have a noble heart, so she might not want to mix with smelly butcher's son but she also wouldn't want them to suffer either. She has no military experience but Dany is not a military commander either. They both have men they can trust. For Sansa's case, she has Jon Snow at the moment. 

I think Sansa lacks the charisma. She doesn't inspire people like Dany sitting on top of a dragon, but she is logical. She has the ability to say the right things that make people join her cause.