Mladen Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 On 11/9/2016 at 6:11 PM, John Doe said: I place my hopes in Sansa. Sure, Dany so far has achieved a lot more, but her mistakes have been greater as well, and Sansa seems to learn more than Dany does at the moment. While Dany appears to have made very little progress in Mereen despite of her intention to learn how to rule there, and even become more and more rash in the books, Sansa is learning politics from Littlefinger, one of the best players around at the moment. If she picked up enough of Ned's morals as a child she could become a great ruler, both cunning and just. A rare enough combination in the books. I would agree with this... Yes, Dany has achieved far more, but this story is also about kids growing up, shaping into the leaders for tomorrow. I think that at the end of the series, Sansa may be the obvious/desirable choice for some ruling function, but I don't see her ending as some Queen of Westeros. She will have power, yes, but I am not sure about THAT power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 There's an idea that keeps popping up in this thread, that Sansa would be a better ruler in times of peace, while Dany would do better in war and strife, that I think is BS. Surely, it's more logical that if you can handle ruling during the most harrowing of times, you'll be even better in the best of times? What makes Sansa rubbish during war, but suddenly brilliant in peace, anyway? I suspect people think this because she's gentle and passive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Daenerys is the best option she has a intimidating self-made legend and she is wild enough to deal with the patriarchal society without getting bullied too much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 7 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: There's an idea that keeps popping up in this thread, that Sansa would be a better ruler in times of peace, while Dany would do better in war and strife, that I think is BS. Surely, it's more logical that if you can handle ruling during the most harrowing of times, you'll be even better in the best of times? The problem with your logic is that we already had a King who was amazing during war, but sucked during peace. Robert was terrible Kind during peace time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 On 10.11.2016 at 4:31 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said: The fact that he didn't doesn't mean that what he did was normal for Westeros. My point is that historically cruelty is made irrelevant in a ruler if you keep alive and are not toppled. Maegor was toppled in the end, and was unable to establish a line of Targaryen monarchs. Octavian-Augustus rose to supreme power in Rome over the corpses of many people yet because he was able to rule for a very long period of time history remembers him as a great Roman emperor. If Dany cleanses Westeros with blood and fire and afterwards stays in power for seventy or eighty years she will be remembered as the greatest Targaryen monarch of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: If Dany cleanses Westeros with blood and fire and afterwards stays in power for seventy or eighty years she will be remembered as the greatest Targaryen monarch of all time. You don't know that. Even if she stays in power for so long which imnsho is a joke and at the end she dies but she had created a bloodbath she will be hated as a bloodthirsty kinslaying monster who killed her family members, brother and nephews, to take the Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 14 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: You don't know that. Even if she stays in power for so long which imnsho is a joke and at the end she dies but she had created a bloodbath she will be hated as a bloodthirsty kinslaying monster who killed her family members, brother and nephews, to take the Throne. Octavian-Augustus did the same, basically. And many other great kings were nothing but bloody conquerors and thieves in the beginning. And Jaime tells us that this (sort of) works. If you kill everybody nobody is coming back to avenge the dead. Just kill everybody and don't overlook anyone. There is a reason why no Reynes and Tarbecks are coming back to haunt the Lannisters (although Tywin the Fool overlooked Viserys and Daenerys). By the way, Meria Martell (the Yellow Toad of Dorne) was ruling Dorne for sixty years by the time of the Conquest and continued do to more than another decade. She got her seventy years reign. Dany is only fifteen. She could rule for a very long time. What family members would Dany have to kill to take the throne? If she defeats Aegon he'll be publicly branded an impostor and pretender, and the people will believe it just as they believed that the three men claiming to be Daeron the Daring were fake. And if she kills Jon Snow nobody should believe the weirdo fairy-tale-like story that he was Rhaegar Targaryen's love child with the Stark girl. There are no other close family members of Dany left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Octavian-Augustus did the same, basically. And many other great kings were nothing but bloody conquerors and thieves in the beginning. Why exactly what happens in real work means that the same will happen to a fantasy world? 16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: By the way, Meria Martell (the Yellow Toad of Dorne) was ruling Dorne for sixty years by the time of the Conquest and continued do to more than another decade. She got her seventy years reign. Dany is only fifteen. She could rule for a very long time. Yet Meria helped her people to be safe, Dany wants to *enslave* people. 17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: What family members would Dany have to kill to take the throne? She is already a kinslayer or the next best thing when it comes to Viserys and she will most definitely will kill Aegon. Even if she names Aegon to be fake what happened to Viserys will be a reason why people will not believe her especially seeing how Aegon will be treated. There is no reason why people should like her while there are numberless reasons why people will hate her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Why exactly what happens in real work means that the same will happen to a fantasy world? Yet Meria helped her people to be safe, Dany wants to *enslave* people. She is already a kinslayer or the next best thing when it comes to Viserys and she will most definitely will kill Aegon. Even if she names Aegon to be fake what happened to Viserys will be a reason why people will not believe her especially seeing how Aegon will be treated. There is no reason why people should like her while there are numberless reasons why people will hate her. Daenerys has a cruel streak, but she's nothing out of the ordinary for a ruler in her world. Meria Martell, for example, was far nastier towards captives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Octavian-Augustus did the same, basically. And many other great kings were nothing but bloody conquerors and thieves in the beginning. And Jaime tells us that this (sort of) works. If you kill everybody nobody is coming back to avenge the dead. Just kill everybody and don't overlook anyone. There is a reason why no Reynes and Tarbecks are coming back to haunt the Lannisters (although Tywin the Fool overlooked Viserys and Daenerys). By the way, Meria Martell (the Yellow Toad of Dorne) was ruling Dorne for sixty years by the time of the Conquest and continued do to more than another decade. She got her seventy years reign. Dany is only fifteen. She could rule for a very long time. What family members would Dany have to kill to take the throne? If she defeats Aegon he'll be publicly branded an impostor and pretender, and the people will believe it just as they believed that the three men claiming to be Daeron the Daring were fake. And if she kills Jon Snow nobody should believe the weirdo fairy-tale-like story that he was Rhaegar Targaryen's love child with the Stark girl. There are no other close family members of Dany left. In fairness to Octavian, he didn't kill everybody who might be a threat. He was as ruthless as they came, but he generally spared his enemies' infant children, even rewarding some of them with high office when they grew up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, SeanF said: Daenerys has a cruel streak, but she's nothing out of the ordinary for a ruler in her world. Meria Martell, for example, was far nastier towards captives. You mean the people who attacked her people and wanted to take away their freedom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said: You mean the people who attacked her people and wanted to take away their freedom? Yes, indeed, but the Dornish weren't guiltless. The inhabitants of the Stormlands and Reach who suffered at their hands were innocent as well. But, in any case, my point stands. Dany doesn't stand out as being especially vicious in her world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 1 hour ago, SeanF said: Yes, indeed, but the Dornish weren't guiltless. The inhabitants of the Stormlands and Reach who suffered at their hands were innocent as well. But, in any case, my point stands. Dany doesn't stand out as being especially vicious in her world. Did I ever said that they were? In any case Dany hasn't been in Westeros in order to be judged. When the kinslayer comes to Westeros with hordes of barbarians in order to burn, kill, rape and pillage the Westerori she will be judged by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Why exactly what happens in real work means that the same will happen to a fantasy world? Considering that George bases a lot his stuff on real history it is not unlikely that something like that happens, yes. 2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Yet Meria helped her people to be safe, Dany wants to *enslave* people. Who wants she to enslave? And does she even want to go to Westeros right now? She postponed that indefinitely back in ADwD and we don't know what is going to change her mind there. People like Marwyn the Mage might invite/beg her to come. 2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: She is already a kinslayer or the next best thing when it comes to Viserys and she will most definitely will kill Aegon. A kinslayer is either a person who killed a close relative with his or her own hands or commanded his death. Dany did neither in the case of Viserys. In fact, the very idea that Dany is guilty of the death of her brother is ridiculous regardless what Arianne Martell believes. Dany is partially to blame for destroying Viserys' standing with the Dothraki but she isn't to be blamed for his death. And I'd not make predictions about Aegon's fate. The boy could be killed by Euron. The boy could die in battle. The boy could die of the grey plague. The boy could give up his claim and join Dany once he learns who he actually is. The boy could be castrated and made Dany's fool (like Johanna Lannister did with one of Dalton Greyjoy's brats). 2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Even if she names Aegon to be fake what happened to Viserys will be a reason why people will not believe her especially seeing how Aegon will be treated. I don't think anybody will care how the royals treat each other. Especially not if Dany ends up defeating the Others and saving everybody's ass. 2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: There is no reason why people should like her while there are numberless reasons why people will hate her. Well, cleansing means that you kill all those people who hate. Dany could very well conduct a holocaust in Westeros and crush all her enemies between her armies and the Others/wights. Thus whoever lives after the Others who lives will worship her as the great savior-queen not hate them. But even if she is playing it nice there is no reason to believe that a majority of Westerosi is going to hate her forever. At the beginning public opinion might be against her (if Aegon has success and is not raped and skinned alive by Euron) but we have no idea how Aegon will perform and what the people will think when winter has them in its deadly embrace and the Others are coming down south. I doubt that the warrior-queen with the dragons will then be perceived as evil... 2 hours ago, SeanF said: In fairness to Octavian, he didn't kill everybody who might be a threat. He was as ruthless as they came, but he generally spared his enemies' infant children, even rewarding some of them with high office when they grew up. Octavian had no legal right to rule Rome in the first place, just being Caesar's private heir. But I'm more talking about the proscriptions, not how he treated his extended family. And he killed quite a few of Antony's children later in life, beginning with the elder early on and the younger later during the crisis involving his daughter (whatever the truth behind that was). But the point is that Octavius 'Caesar' rose to power as a butcher and died as the beloved and revered father of the country. The same could happen with Dany. That's all I'm saying. Oh, and motives are irrelevant. The Targaryens didn't want to enslave the Dornish commoner to a greater degree as the Martells had already done. The average Dornishman has no good reason to prefer a Martell prince over a Targaryen king. Princess Meria wanted to preserve her own power and privileges as an independent and used the loyalty of her subjects to accomplish that goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Considering that George bases a lot his stuff on real history it is not unlikely that something like that happens, yes. You would had been right if dragons were alive in real world. 10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Who wants she to enslave? And does she even want to go to Westeros right now? She postponed that indefinitely back in ADwD and we don't know what is going to change her mind there. People like Marwyn the Mage might invite/beg her to come. She wants to take away the freedom of the Westerosi like what she did in Slaver's bay. You may disagree and say that she doesn't want to do it but the fact that she wants to put herself on the Throne proves you wrong. 10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: A kinslayer is either a person who killed a close relative with his or her own hands or commanded his death. Not true. Quote He was an uncle to Queen Selyse and had been among the first to follow her in accepting Melisandre’s red god. If he is not a kinslayer, he is the next best thing. Axell Florent’s brother had been burned by Melisandre, Maester Aemon had informed him, yet Ser Axell had done little and less to stop it. What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive? 10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The boy could be killed by Euron. That would made no sense. 10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: I don't think anybody will care how the royals treat each other. Especially not if Dany ends up defeating the Others and saving everybody's ass. I am really bored right know. Seriously your "theory" about Dany will be the ultimate winner seems like an awful fanfiction. Long story short I have lost any interest that I might had for what you try to say. So I don't see why I should spend my time discussing what it seems to be your fan fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: You would had been right if dragons were alive in real world. Are you claiming George doesn't draw inspiration from real world history? 7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: She wants to take away the freedom of the Westerosi like what she did in Slaver's bay. You may disagree and say that she doesn't want to do it but the fact that she wants to put herself on the Throne proves you wrong. So Joffrey, Tommen, Stannis, Renly, Robb, etc. all also tried to 'take away the freedom of the Westerosi' because they tried to conquer or keep their thrones? 7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Not true. Jon's definitions of a kinslayer working on the example of Axell Florent isn't the truth. Besides, if you go back to Viserys' death you will realize that Jorah actually feared for all of their lives, not just Viserys'. He feared that the Dothraki would kill them all, not just Viserys. And even if I'd concede that Dany killed her brother, didn't the man deserve it after he threatened to cut her unborn son out of her womb? You can kill your brother if he tries to kill you first, you know. And by the way, aside from Loras and Brienne nobody seems to hate Stannis particularly for arranging the murder of Renly. Many people don't care all that much about following some kinslayer. 7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: That would made no sense. Why not? Euron is set up as a major antagonist. He could very well fight and defeat Aegon before Dany even arrives. 7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: I am really bored right know. Seriously your "theory" about Dany will be the ultimate winner seems like an awful fanfiction. I'm not saying that this is going to happen. I just say it is a possibility. But the idea that Dany is going to die in childbirth is less likely than she surviving the series as one of the rulers of Westeros in the end. She is one of the core characters, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 On 28/11/2016 at 9:12 PM, Risto said: The problem with your logic is that we already had a King who was amazing during war, but sucked during peace. Robert was terrible Kind during peace time. Robert wasn't King during the rebellion, nor did he do any ruling. Heck, he didn't even organise the rebellion - that was Arryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaibaman Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said: Robert wasn't King during the rebellion, nor did he do any ruling. Heck, he didn't even organise the rebellion - that was Arryn. Yep Robert may have been a great warrior and very charismatic dude. But the planning and organizing of the rebellion and its battles were mostly done by Ned and Jon Arryn. Plus the real problem with Robert is that he didn't try ruling and was mostly interested in indulging himself in the various pleasures that comes with being king. Unless we're talking threats of national security that would threaten his position as the king, he would not bother to sit in council or the Iron Throne and do some serious administrative work. Dany while she has shown to struggle with the day to day duties of a ruler is at least willing to take on the responsibilities as a queen very seriously. And unlike Sansa she actually HAS some experience in ruling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 4 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: Robert wasn't King during the rebellion, nor did he do any ruling. Heck, he didn't even organise the rebellion - that was Arryn. Robert was a commander of the armies, a face of the rebellion, someone who inspired respect and loyalty even from his opponents. That said, in all but name, Robert was the King to those who fought for him. The thing is that Robert, in many ways like Dany, is someone who understands war, who can easily operate when they know who is the enemy. But, in time of peace, the situation is significantly different and you have to juggle between various people, some of whom you are not sure you can trust. Being a ruler during peaceful time is not easy either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Friendzone Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 On 28. 11. 2016 at 4:31 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said: Why exactly what happens in real work means that the same will happen to a fantasy world? Yet Meria helped her people to be safe, Dany wants to *enslave* people. She is already a kinslayer or the next best thing when it comes to Viserys and she will most definitely will kill Aegon. Even if she names Aegon to be fake what happened to Viserys will be a reason why people will not believe her especially seeing how Aegon will be treated. There is no reason why people should like her while there are numberless reasons why people will hate her. Here we go again with Viserys. Don't forget to say how Jon will be disgusted by this when he hears it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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