Jump to content

Sansa's Marital Status


Byfort of Corfe

Recommended Posts

Forgive me, I'm sure that this has been gone over before but I don't get a chance to read all of the updates and Chapters that have been released but what is "Book Sansa's" Marital Status?  At the end of Book 5 and I guess at least part of Book 6 Sansa is masquerading as Alayne in order to hide from Cersei and the Lannisters.  She was, at that time, still married to Tyrion.  Now certainly a marriage can be set aside but that has to be done by the Faith does it not?  It seems to me that they are unlikely to help Sansa get a "quiet" divorce (even on the grounds of the marriage not being consummated) as long as she is wanted by the Crown.  And it seems that would be an enormous risk for Petyr to take since it would telegraph to Cersei that he is no longer on her side.  So it seems to me that any speculation that Sansa will marry anyone in the Vale is moot since, even if she carries on the fiction and marries someone as Alayne, that marriage would be illegitimate and any inheritance or anything derived from it would be questionable at best.  Unless of course Sansa can be convinced that she will "play" Alayne for the rest of her life but of course then she gives up her claim to Winterfell, which since everyone thinks that Bran and Rickon are dead, she is the sole heir to (ignoring all the Bolton stuff). 

 

So is this correct or am I missing something here?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Lannisters consider her Tyrion's wife. Since the Lannisters married her under false legal power, unless the marriage was consumated it can be easily set aside. Most people don't know that though, and still consider her Tyrion's wife. Remember when Lady Hornwood was married to Ramsay at sword point, and it was consumated so it was a bit problematic for the Starks to assume that Roose would be ok with setting it aside, especially as there was land involved. 

The High Septon can break a marriage, especially if given enough bribes. The king too has the power to break a marriage as he has the final word over the Faith, but it needs to be in special circumstances. He can't just go and dissolve a marriage because he lusts after a woman, but say if Sansa was to go to Stannis, he could easily declare her marriage illegal and void. Renly's entire plan hinged on the fact that Robert had the power to dissolve his own marriage to Cersei at any given time, even with children by her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where Sansa/Alayne and Petyr are backed into a corner is with the lie that Alayne is his natural daughter.  They cannot go to Stannis or anyone else to get the marriage annulled without letting Cersei and the Lannisters know that Petyr has changed sides.  Since the Lannisters are sure that Sansa was at least involved with Joffrey's death then anyone helping her (and since Petyr knew her at court no one is going to believe him if he says that somehow he didn't know who she was) is a co-conspirator.  I can't imagine anything in the Vale that could entice Petyr to risk his own life and future plans to exposure until he is much better placed.  And Sansa was married by the High Septon so I don't really see how it could be "false legal power".  And wouldn't there be a problem with Stannis being an adherent to "R'Holler" and Sansa was married under The Seven, I mean as far as people recognizing the legitimacy of the annulment?  Since the folks in the Vale are of The Seven or The Old Gods rather than "The Lord of Light"?  They're already suspicious of Petyr, this just seems like he has boxed himself in, unless he is ready to move to open war with the Lannisters/Baratheons (other than Stannis) and the Tyrells. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Littlefinger is assuming Cersei and the Lannisters will fall from power, and at that point it will be safe for Sansa for resume her real identity.  Alternatively, he could figure that Cersei's power will be sufficiently reduced that she will be unable to do anything about Sansa.  This could be especially true in the North, where being involved in Joffrey's death might be considered a positive.

As for the marriage itself, it is still a valid marriage until and unless dissolved.  Non-consummation is grounds for an annulment, but we have no information as to how easy that would be to obtain.  Even if proven, it would be inherently a political decision by the authorities in question.  There is also the strong possibility that Sansa herself could find the marriage a convenient way of avoiding being part of the marriage plots of others.  At this point in time, marriage holds no great appeal for her, especially as it is her claim of Winterfell that would likely interest most suitors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have always have been of the opinion that Sansa is unmarried as of the last books. The reason being Tyrion was already married to Tysha and unable to marry anyone at the time of the marriage ceremony between him and Sansa. Or so Littlefinger will argue. He might even produce Tysha to prove it. They were married by a real Septon and they had weeks of consummating the marriage before Tyrion is lied to and convinced the marriage is fake. In the eyes of the Faith it is real and valid.

There is no sign that the marriage was annulled by any act of the High Septon, and it is highly unlikely Tywin actually asked for him to do so considering how shameful he felt Tyrion's action was.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I have always have been of the opinion that Sansa is unmarried as of the last books. The reason being Tyrion was already married to Tysha and unable to marry anyone at the time of the marriage ceremony between him and Sansa. Or so Littlefinger will argue. He might even produce Tysha to prove it. They were married by a real Septon and they had weeks of consummating the marriage before Tyrion is lied to and convinced the marriage is fake. In the eyes of the Faith it is real and valid.

There is no sign that the marriage was annulled by any act of the High Septon, and it is highly unlikely Tywin actually asked for him to do so considering how shameful he felt Tyrion's action was.

It's mentioned in one of the books that Tywin had Tyrion's First marriage "taken care of" (not an actual quote from the books but basically the same thing, GRRM put it more politely I think).  I used to wonder this myself but someone (here I think) pointed that out to me.  I guess that you don't become Hand to the King without learning how to quietly clean up messes.  Also since Tyrion at first objects to the marriage with Sansa I would think that, if were still legally married, he would have brought that up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

It's mentioned in one of the books that Tywin had Tyrion's First marriage "taken care of" (not an actual quote from the books but basically the same thing, GRRM put it more politely I think).  I used to wonder this myself but someone (here I think) pointed that out to me.  I guess that you don't become Hand to the King without learning how to quietly clean up messes.  Also since Tyrion at first objects to the marriage with Sansa I would think that, if were still legally married, he would have brought that up.

Tyrion thinks his marriage to Tysha was a fake put up job orchestrated by Jaime until the night Jaime frees him from the black cells and tells him the truth. Tywin "takes care of" the marriage by destroying Tysha and Tyrion's relationship through Jaime's lie, and the organized gang rape of his new daughter-in-law. There is nothing to show he goes to the High Septon to get the marriage annulled, and plenty of reasons he never even attempted to do so.

First, to get an annulment one needs the marriage partners to attest it was never consummated. But we know Tywin cannot do so, because Tyrion believes his brother's story the marriage was a fake. One doesn't go testify before the High Septon to annul a faked marriage. So, we know the annulment never took place. Whoever told you otherwise is just wrong.

Second, Tywin's brutal destruction of his son's marriage is his way of "quietly" fixing the problem of the marriage. As far as he is concerned it is done away with, because Tyrion had no right to marry in the first place. This is, as in all things, about Tywin's rights and Tywin's power.

However, what Tywin believes is not what the Faith believes, and under the rules the Faith puts forward the marriage is still valid. The only real question is whether or not Tysha is still alive. Hence the importance of Tyrion's question of "where do whores go?" If Littlefinger can find Tysha, the marriage is still valid and Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is a bigamous one and invalid in the eyes of the Faith.

Lastly, in case there is any question that Littlefinger and the rest of the small council knows of the marriage, we see Tyrion speak to the story of his "marriage" during a council meeting with Baelish, Varys, and others present. If they didn't know before that, they certainly know after the meeting. That Petyr took note, and understands the importance is clear by the fact he tells Sansa of Tyrion's wedding after her arrival aboard the ship to the Vale.

So, there isn't any doubt about any of this with the important exception that we don't know that Tysha is really alive. The character called the "sailor's wife" may have something to say about that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With all due respect, no.  Tywin had the Faith quietly annul the marriage.  Tyrion still believes/hopes that Tysha is still alive, therefore he still believes that, absent an annulment he is still married when the marriage to Sansa, which he opposes, is put to him by Tywin.  He never tells Tywin "but you forget, I am already married".  Tyrion would have said that even if all he thought that all it would do would be to make his father angry.  But Tyrion doesn't say it.  And why?  Because he knows that Tywin had his marriage annulled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

With all due respect, no.  Tywin had the Faith quietly annul the marriage.  Tyrion still believes/hopes that Tysha is still alive, therefore he still believes that, absent an annulment he is still married when the marriage to Sansa, which he opposes, is put to him by Tywin.  He never tells Tywin "but you forget, I am already married".  Tyrion would have said that even if all he thought that all it would do would be to make his father angry.  But Tyrion doesn't say it.  And why?  Because he knows that Tywin had his marriage annulled.

I'm sorry but this absolutely and demonstrably wrong. Again, Tyrion does not know his marriage is not a fake until Jaime tells him it is on the night he frees Tyrion from the black cells. When the marriage to Sansa takes place he still thinks his marriage to Tysha was a fake. The opportunity for Tyrion to confront Tywin is limited to the time he finds his father on the privy to the time he puts a crossbow bolt in his groin.

During the rather limited time they have, Tyrion's focus is on where Tywin sent his wife, because, for the first time since Jaime told his brother Tywin's lie, he knows he really was married. For the first time since Jaime tells his father's lie, he knows his wife was not a whore who feigned her love to him for money. The subject of a quiet annulment Tyrion obviously knows nothing about never comes up and there is no reason it should. If Tyrion knew of a annulment, he would already know Jaime's story was a lie. He doesn't until Jaime tells him the truth.

The only way for a quiet annulment to take place is for it to be done without Tyrion's knowledge. The problem with this scenario is two- fold. First, there is, your source to the contrary, there is not a scintilla of evidence this took place. Not in the text, nor in the author's remarks. Second, it requires the Faith to set aside it's own rules for an annulment. The High Septon or Council of Faith can set a marriage aside based on both parties saying the marriage was not consummated. That takes Tyrion and Tysha testifying to a lie. Obviously this did not happen. 

In short, your scenario relies on no evidence that the Faith violated their own rules and secretly set aside Tyrion's marriage. Not buying it, with all due respect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Per the author's statements, a marriage can be annulled, but one of the two parties involved must personally make the request. As Tyrion has a price on his head, and Sansa is still wanted for conspiracy to commit regicide, that's not likely to happen. Once Cersei is out of power, it becomes a bit less dangerous. Setting aside the whole regicide bit, either the High Septon himself or a Council of the Faith may grant an annulment.

Until such time as Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is formally annulled, she cannot be legally married. Which LF knows. As he also knows that bringing Sansa out at her wedding to Harry the Heir with her hair un-dyed and a Stark maiden cloak will stop the wedding. 

The only possible way around the annulment issue that I can imagine would be if Littlefinger produces a Tysha (real or fake) and she demands that Tyrion's marriage to Sansa be annulled on the basis of her own claim to be married to him. But since Tywin may well have had that marriage annulled (probably within his rights as Tyrion was underage), that one's iffy. Not to mention the fact that with Tyrion's being convicted of regicide and subsequently attainted, there would be no inheritance for Tysha or any child she might claim to have borne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With the possible marriage to Harry the Heir looming in Alayne I TWOW, Sansa's thinks no man can marry her as long as she's still married to Tyrion.  Ironically, the forced marriage she didn't want gives her some psychological if not dubious legal protection against another arranged marriage.  Her virginity could possibly be verified by the Faith by physical exam (not reality based but for literary logic's sake we'll go with it). That would involve her coming forward publicly as Sansa Stark, which is dangerous so long as Cercei is in power.  I think the whole point of conflict will be the legal dubiousness and it will matter depending on how the marriage, legal or otherwise, profits either party.  It's the same with claims on the Iron Throne or even real life historical succession claims.  Even a minor legal claim could possibly override a major one, depending on the interests of the parties supporting or not supporting the claim.  Whichever side has the bigger guns is probably going to come out on top.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are a few ways out of the marriage for both as I see it:

(1) The marriage is invalid because Tyrion is already married if Tysha is found alive. We are taking it on faith that Tywin had it annulled because Tywin says he did. From what we know of Tywin I think it far more likely that Tywin would simply have the drunk septon killed and send Tysha away and pretend it never happened. Who's to say otherwise? Only Jaime and Tysha know the truth and Tysha's was made into a whore. This is a much more likely path for Tywin to take based on his character imho than Tywn actually having it annulled as he wanted there to be no knowledge of the marriage ever having been taken place. Rather than doing it officially and hoping mouths stay shut instead pretend it never happened and kill any of consequence who may say otherwise.

(2) Old Gods vs. New Gods. Sansa was married before the Seven. Perhaps she could simply renounce her marriage before a heart tree as not consummated and marry someone else before a heart tree. She's already more or less renounced the Seven and seems to be open to the Old Gods anyway. This obviously wouldn't work for a Vale house but there is no way that LF is being forthright in his stated plans for Sansa. He has no intention that she actually marry HtH.

(3) Annulment by the HS due to non-consummation. Not likely as it would need Tyrion's testimony to corroborate.

(4) Tyrion dies.

However, I think that Tyrion's marriage to Sansa will be important down the road as it puts Sansa in line to inherit Casterly Rock through Tyrion. If Stannis, Shireen, and Cersei's children die then the Seven Kingdoms will likely disintegrate as the Barratheon line is extinguished. Yes you have Dany but she is effectively a foreigner and the Mad King's daughter and besides still has the fAegon rebellion to deal with. So there will be a KitN and I think likely Cersei will declare herself Queen of the Rock. The ramification being that if Sansa "casts her down" then Sansa would become Queen of the Rock through Tyrion making her the younger more beautiful queen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Minuteman said:

Rather than doing it officially and hoping mouths stay shut instead pretend it never happened and kill any of consequence who may say otherwise.

I agree with this being the most likely scenario.  An annulment would be officially on the books, which would be to acknowledge it actually happened to begin with.  Totally within Tywin's character to take this route.

1 hour ago, Minuteman said:

(2) Old Gods vs. New Gods. Sansa was married before the Seven. Perhaps she could simply renounce her marriage before a heart tree as not consummated and marry someone else before a heart tree. She's already more or less renounced the Seven and seems to be open to the Old Gods anyway. This obviously wouldn't work for a Vale house but there is no way that LF is being forthright in his stated plans for Sansa. He has no intention that she actually marry HtH.

I don't think there's ever been a legal precedence for anyone challenging the validity of a marriage based solely on the religion.  In the noble class with all their arranged marriages, you wouldn't want to make it too easy for people (especially women) to get out of a lousy marriage.  No matter how much of a heresy one religion could consider the others to be, for practical purposes society doesn't want the destabilizing effect of ending most marriages.  And I have no doubt this marriage to HtH is not going to happen, mainly because she thinks he's an asshole and the fact that LF was counting on Sansa being a widow, but that didn't pan out.  I would say LF's plan is to marry her to HtH, but he might just meet an untimely death soon after (and assuming he's also planned for SR to die soon), freeing up Sansa for himself again.  We got clues in the WOW chapter, Sansa is going to subtly subvert his plan while appearing to be seducing Harry.    

1 hour ago, Minuteman said:

(3) Annulment by the HS due to non-consummation. Not likely as it would need Tyrion's testimony to corroborate.

(4) Tyrion dies.

I would say non-consummation is the strongest piece of evidence.  There could be the physical proof of her virginity.  Remember it seemed to be fairly common gossip in KL that Sansa was still a maid.  While her virginity may be widely believable, there's still no word from LF how he plans to make it official.  Sansa Stark is still wanted for regicide and as long as Lannisters rule, no one is going to give her a pass to annul her marriage and anyone she marries would be officially a traitor as well.  Tyrion staying alive does benefit Sansa in that it offers an obstacle to another arranged marriage.  She might just be a little grateful this won't be so easy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tyrion said several times that he and Tysha were married by a drunk septon. I don't remember any text evidence, but could for a septon being intoxicated be a reason why their marrige was illigitimate? Besides that Tyrion and Tysha didn't have any witnesses, except pigs. I guess there msut be some loopholes that Tywin would use. Otherwise he would just ordered tysha killed and would make Tyrion a widower.

So there are no evidence that Tyrion has been married at all except his own words. Tysha is gone, the septon is probably dead too or won't insist on truth, Tywin is dead and there were no witnesses. IMO, Tyrion's marriage to Sansa is more ligitimate  from the society's point of view, than the one with Tysha. And this will create a problem from the LF as soon as a word of Tyrion being alive and well reaches him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Tyrion said several times that he and Tysha were married by a drunk septon. I don't remember any text evidence, but could for a septon being intoxicated be a reason why their marrige was illigitimate? Besides that Tyrion and Tysha didn't have any witnesses, except pigs. I guess there msut be some loopholes that Tywin would use. Otherwise he would just ordered tysha killed and would make Tyrion a widower.

So there are no evidence that Tyrion has been married at all except his own words. Tysha is gone, the septon is probably dead too or won't insist on truth, Tywin is dead and there were no witnesses. IMO, Tyrion's marriage to Sansa is more ligitimate  from the society's point of view, than the one with Tysha. And this will create a problem from the LF as soon as a word of Tyrion being alive and well reaches him.

We don't know that any of this would be disqualifying. They would be new rules Martin has not told us about. To be fair, Martin could also drastically change his world. Time travel would make it possible that Tyrion and/or Tysha go back in time to falsely testify before the High Septon. Mesermo the Magnificent may show up and reveal he hypnotized Tyrion into forgetting they knew the marriage was real before he did. There is also the old rock to the head causing amnesia ... any an all of the soap opera writer's hack tricks used to explain the impossible could be used if Martin stoops to using them.

In Martin's reality, the only real way out of Tyrion and Sansa's wedding being a bigamous one is by Tysha's death. It is very likely Littlefinger is searching for her to use to disqualify the wedding so his plans with Harry can go forward.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

It is very likely Littlefinger is searching for her to use to disqualify the wedding so his plans with Harry can go forward.

Agree. Probably LF as a brothel owner is well aware of her whereabouts, because he knows "where whores go". I'm really thrilled how it will work out, because alive Tyrion would definitely confuse LF's plans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Agree. Probably LF as a brothel owner is well aware of her whereabouts, because he knows "where whores go". I'm really thrilled how it will work out, because alive Tyrion would definitely confuse LF's plans.

I'm not sure he is well aware of her whereabouts, but with his contacts in that world, his resources, and, perhaps, his heritage from Bravos, he has the ability to find her that others do not. My guess is that as soon as Tyrion was foolish enough to speak about his "marriage" before the small council, Littlefinger and Varys both began investigating. But then again, perhaps they already knew.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I'm not sure he is well aware of her whereabouts, but with his contacts in that world, his resources, and, perhaps, his heritage from Bravos, he has the ability to find her that others do not. My guess is that as soon as Tyrion was foolish enough to speak about his "marriage" before the small council, Littlefinger and Varys both began investigating. But then again, perhaps they already knew.

Actually, in Tyrion's absence even a fake Tysha will do as fake Arya did. Several people know that Tyrion was married, but only a few knew how Tysha looked like and would be able to recognize her (likely, only Tyrion himself). There would be no problem for LF to present a fTysha who would justify she was legally married to Tyrion, making his marriage to Sansa illigitimate. But it is just speculation.

But my point is that LF's plan  has a pretty tight timing of about one year, during which LF plans to engage Sansa to HtH, win over the Vale lords and slowly poison SR. So every hesitation like the one with marriage annulement could confuse his plan or even expose it (I hope it happens)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...