Rhaegars orders for Gerold, Arthur and Oswell at the Tower of Joy.

[Lord Varys]

 

4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

He called it "dishonoured her at Harrenhal", though. That limits it to the tourney itself.

Only if we assume it was revealed there. Which we have no reason up to that point. And if he had married her he could have prevented it from ever coming out. Daemon and Rhaenyra apparently also married rather quickly to ensure she would not give birth to a bastard. So this kind of thing was not unknown.

4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Not necessarily. It might depend on how much his family was involved in what all happened at the ToJ. Also, Arthur had been loyal to the dynasty which had lost the war, and a new King sat on the throne. Killing Ned would gain them nothing but trouble.

At that time Dorne had not yet bent the knee. The war could have continued and certainly would have had Lord Dayne sent Robert Eddard Stark's head.

2 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

No, on the contrary, it would have added more fuel to the red herring that is Ned + Ashara for Jon's parents. The fact that Ned doesn't think about her at all is what is the big red flag about N + A. Instead, the memory of Lyanna haunts him, which is the big clue for R +  L = J.

Only if it had been some vague memory of Ashara. But if it had been concrete, say, about her loss as well as about the loss of their daughter then things would have been pretty clear.

2 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

If something like that had happened to Ned, where Ashara had gotten pregnant with his baby and then killed herself over the whole tragedy, you can bet it would have come back to haunt him at that time.

It might have. Ned's last chapter is not really very focused on his memories nor very coherent.

2 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Not likely. The man returned Dawn. There's no reason to senselessly kill Ned.

I don't see a reason why bringing back some sword should excuse treason and murder. I also don't expect that Robb would have forgiven Joffrey had the boy sent him Ice.

There must have been a reason why Ned thought he had to go to Starfall, personally, and a reason why he thought he could survive such a journey. Not to mention a reason why he thought he could involve any Daynes (and their people) into the whole Jon Snow thing. Considering that we know nothing about Lord Dayne up to this point Ashara is the best guess for all of that.

2 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

However, I agree that there are hints in the text that N +  A could have been close. I'm leaning towards more of a friendship though. 

Not sure how that would have worked. There is little reason to believe they spent much time with each other outside Harrenhal, and hanging out with somebody for a fortnight doesn't create great bonds of friendship. And there is no hint that shy Ned was the type of man who could establish some sort of platonic friendship with a gorgeous young woman he apparently had the hots for.

[the trees have eyes]

On 20/09/2016 at 3:59 AM, cgrav said:

I'm really warming up to this theory that Daenerys was born at the ToJ, even if Jon was also found there.

It would explain:
1) Why Dany is so much younger than Viserys

2) The conspicuously exactly 9 month gap between Dany and Jon's births

9 months is the average duration of a pregnancy.  I hope you aren't suggesting that it's normal for a woman to conceive again immediately after she gives birth.  Most women are in no condition for and have no inclination for sex for quite some time after delivering their first born children.

If anything the nine month gap makes it much more likely that Lyanna was not mother to both of them.

[Macgregor of the North]

Hey @Little Scribe of Naath. I read earlier on the thread how you compared to Azor Ahai fighting the monster to a dragon attack. I found it interesting. I have had the opposite feelings when I read that passage. Have you ever thought of the similarity between the AA monster fight and when big Sam slays the Other? It's the blood boiling etc that always gets me.

Heres both quotes:

"Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

Now Sam.

 "He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man's foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse.

When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating"

[Little Scribe of Naath]

6 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Hey @Little Scribe of Naath. I read earlier on the thread how you compared to Azor Ahai fighting the monster to a dragon attack. I found it interesting. I have had the opposite feelings when I read that passage. Have you ever thought of the similarity between the AA monster fight and when big Sam slays the Other? It's the blood boiling etc that always gets me.

Heres both quotes:

"Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

Now Sam.

 "He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man's foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse.

When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating"

You misunderstood my post -  I was indicating that the "flaming sword" featuring in the AA prophecy was most probably a metaphor for a dragon, because of the similarity in the manner in which the victim dies. It's possible that the passage was actually talking about killing an Other with obsidian -  but that doesn't account for "the eyes melting and dribbling down it's cheeks" and "it's body burst into flame". Whereas the scene when Kraznys is bbqed is almost exactly the same.

Quote

A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.

This is another one, Viserion:

Quote

The man wore the mask of a Brazen Beast, the fearsome likeness of a tiger. As he dropped his weapon to try and pry apart Viserion’s jaws, flame gouted from the tiger’s mouth. The man’s eyes burst with soft popping sounds, and the brass around them began to run.

There is another issue with Lightbringer being an obsidian sword: Obsidian is way too brittle.

 

The victim may have been an Other in the original AA prophecy, but I feel the wording would be slightly different in that case --> maybe something like the creature melted away, shattered into pieces or something. The second major issue is that there is no way the Others from North of the Wall ended up in Asshai.

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

You misunderstood my post -  I was indicating that the "flaming sword" featuring in the AA prophecy was most probably a metaphor for a dragon, because of the similarity in the manner in which the victim dies. It's possible that the passage was actually talking about killing an Other with obsidian -  but that doesn't account for "the eyes melting and dribbling down it's cheeks" and "it's body burst into flame". Whereas the scene when Kraznys is bbqed is almost exactly the same.

This is another one, Viserion:

There is another issue with Lightbringer being an obsidian sword: Obsidian is way too brittle.

 

The victim may have been an Other in the original AA prophecy, but I feel the wording would be slightly different in that case --> maybe something like the creature melted away, shattered into pieces or something. The second major issue is that there is no way the Others from North of the Wall ended up in Asshai.

Ah I see now. And the similarities you quote are very clear.

To clarify on my part though.

I wasnt meaning an Obsidian sword if the AA monster was an Other, I was just pointing out a small similarity I noticed with AA and Sams killings.

What I actually think killed the monster(if it was an Other, or perhaps an Other riding an Ice spider, hence the blow being to its belly) was Dragonsteel and not Obsidian.

If this figure, who the Asshai believe to be AA, but the Targs believe to be the PtwP, and Westerosi believe to be the Last hero are just a jumbled up version of one hero or different heroes or whatever I think it's possible that the sword of Dragonsteel that was used was just a blade forged in Dragonflame, similar to Valyrian steel, and this type of blade will cause that same effect on the Others and their Ice spiders that Sams Obsidian did.

Im of the idea that the Age of Valyria etc is actually a lot closer to the long night than records state and the histories of Westeros are quite a bit off with their estimates of eight thousand years. If this is the case it's maybe possible a figure from the east killed Others and Ice spiders with a sword but it wasn't an actual flaming sword, but simply a sword forged in dragon flame. 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Ah I see now. And the similarities you quote are very clear.

To clarify on my part though.

I wasnt meaning an Obsidian sword if the AA monster was an Other, I was just pointing out a small similarity I noticed with AA and Sams killings.

What I actually think killed the monster(if it was an Other, or perhaps an Other riding an Ice spider, hence the blow being to its belly) was Dragonsteel and not Obsidian.

If this figure, who the Asshai believe to be AA, but the Targs believe to be the PtwP, and Westerosi believe to be the Last hero are just a jumbled up version of one hero or different heroes or whatever I think it's possible that the sword of Dragonsteel that was used was just a blade forged in Dragonflame, similar to Valyrian steel, and this type of blade will cause that same effect on the Others and their Ice spiders that Sams Obsidian did.

Im of the idea that the Age of Valyria etc is actually a lot closer to the long night than records state and the histories of Westeros are quite a bit off with their estimates of eight thousand years. If this is the case it's maybe possible a figure from the east killed Others and Ice spiders with a sword but it wasn't an actual flaming sword, but simply a sword forged in dragon flame. 

But then how would you account for the "body bursting into flame"  and "eyes melting" part, if it was dragonsteel? 

[Macgregor of the North]

Just now, Little Scribe of Naath said:

But then how would you account for the "body bursting into flame"  and "eyes melting" part, if it was dragonsteel? 

Maybe Dragonsteel/Valyrian steel will have a slightly different more pronounced effect on the ice being it hits than Dragonglass? I'm speculating wildly of course LSoN(as usual lol), we won't know any of this until it's confirmed Dragonsteel was indeed dragon flame forged steel(or not) and one of our current characters swings their VS blade at an Other. 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

13 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Maybe Dragonsteel/Valyrian steel will have a slightly different more pronounced effect on the ice being it hits than Dragonglass? I'm speculating wildly of course LSoN(as usual lol), we won't know any of this until it's confirmed Dragonsteel was indeed dragon flame forged steel(or not) and one of our current characters swings their VS blade at an Other. 

Yeah, the farther back we go into history, the less accurate our speculations are going to be because everything is so hazy :/ I was just focusing on that "eyes" thing and the "flame" stuff because it seemed oddly specific to me. As you say, we don't know yet what effect VS will have on an Other.

[cgrav]

13 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

13 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

9 months is the average duration of a pregnancy.  I hope you aren't suggesting that it's normal for a woman to conceive again immediately after she gives birth.  Most women are in no condition for and have no inclination for sex for quite some time after delivering their first born children.

If anything the nine month gap makes it much more likely that Lyanna was not mother to both of them.

 

 

No, it's not normal. I'm saying the stress of back to back pregnancies may be what killed her. The 9 month gap is just way too conspicuous to be meaningless. What possible significance could that have other than the length of a pregnancy?

[Macgregor of the North]

34 minutes ago, cgrav said:

 

No, it's not normal. I'm saying the stress of back to back pregnancies may be what killed her. The 9 month gap is just way too conspicuous to be meaningless. What possible significance could that have other than the length of a pregnancy?

I see you mentioned further back that the gap between Dany and Jon is 'exactly' 9 months. Could you quote where that is from? I'm sure I have only ever read GRRM state it was around 8-9 months.

[Amris]

24 minutes ago, cgrav said:

 

No, it's not normal. I'm saying the stress of back to back pregnancies may be what killed her. The 9 month gap is just way too conspicuous to be meaningless. What possible significance could that have other than the length of a pregnancy?

I am all for alternate theories about Dany's parentage and even age. Still I have to disagree with you about the meaning of the '9 month gap' as you call it..

GRRM said 'more like 8-9 months' not 9 months. From my perspective there is nothing conspicous about that statement. You are free to disagree of course.

As I see things, the time frame of 8-9 months does indeed have something to do with the length of a pregnancy but with Rhaella's pregnancy, not Lyannas.

As we all know the official party line is that Rhaella left KL the day after her rape by Aerys II, shortly before the fall of KL and nine months later gave birth to Dany. Now Ned arrived in KL shortly after Rhaella's departure and then left for Dorne an unspecified time later but we don't know the details. I suspect GRRM has not calculated the time exactly either. Be that as it may:

If Ned has arrived at the ToJ on the day of Jon's birth or thereabouts then the age difference between Jon and Dany has to be less than 9 months because the supposedly just impregnated Rhaella left King's Landing BEFORE Ned did AND Ned still had to travel to the ToJ.

I find it likely GRRM quickly calculated that in his head when presented with the question and came up with about 1 month for Ned to get to the Tower sounding about right, hence the 8-9 months answer.

***

In my personal opinion which may well be utterly and completely wrong it is not impossible that the POV-Dany we know was born somewhere else or by somebody else then Rhaella - but the 8-9 month supposed age difference between Dany and Jon is NOT a meaningful argument for that. That's all I wanted to show here.

 

 

[cgrav]

46 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I see you mentioned further back that the gap between Dany and Jon is 'exactly' 9 months. Could you quote where that is from? I'm sure I have only ever read GRRM state it was around 8-9 months.

I was referring to Martin's statement. 

The conspicuousnes of "9 months", even if it's not exact, was the starting point with this training thought. It's definitely not a fleshed out theory, just a possible explanation for some of the missing information. The pieces fit together roughly. I am entirely open to other explanations.

[the trees have eyes]

10 hours ago, cgrav said:

 

No, it's not normal. I'm saying the stress of back to back pregnancies may be what killed her. The 9 month gap is just way too conspicuous to be meaningless. What possible significance could that have other than the length of a pregnancy?

It's not particulalry conspicuous though.  The timeline has to fit together and though we all know how imprecise GRRM can be with dates (and we should give him some slack here with the amount he is juggling) his answer could easily just be him sorting out in his mind the movements of Rhaella and Ned amid all the other events of the war and putting a fairly good but not watertight number to the age difference between Jon and Dany.  It could simply be he hadn't thought about it in that amount of detail becuase it really didn't and doesn't matter and when asked did some mental arithmetic on the fly.  It doesn't have to be a telltale sign that Jon and Dany were both Lyanna's.  Interestingly a lot of lemongaters refused to accept that "closer to nine months" was a face value statement and imputed some twisted logic that this implied Jon and Dany were twins.  I don't really see that the age gap tells us much other than that there is one.

And I still think that if you are of the mind that the age difference is exactly nine months then this rules out Lyanna as a plausible candidate for mother.  You can believe Rhaegar knocked her up the day after she gave birth but I don't think the age gap is meant to lead us to this conclusion.  That was really the only thing that caught my attention.

[Macgregor of the North]

13 hours ago, cgrav said:

I was referring to Martin's statement. 

The conspicuousnes of "9 months", even if it's not exact, was the starting point with this training thought. It's definitely not a fleshed out theory, just a possible explanation for some of the missing information. The pieces fit together roughly. I am entirely open to other explanations.

But it would then be the conspicuousnes of the 8-9 months gap according to the SSM. I'm with the above posters, I never got a conspicuous vibe from it. I suppose we gotta wait for the books to clear things up while the debates rage on. 

[bent branch]

 

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 0:20 PM, kimim said:

A question about Dany's vision in the HotU:

The baby is Aegon, Rhaegar's second child, born after Rhaegar meets Lyanna at Harrenhal. Aegon is the son of a Dornish woman and a Targ. I understand how Aegon might be tptwp, but why is his song "the song of ice and fire"? That song specifically refers to a Stark-Targ marriage, or so I thought.

Rhaegar then says "there must be one more," as "the dragon has three heads." This is pretty dire, as he probably just found out that his wife won't be able to have more children, which means that he can only have "two heads," with her. Was this pretty scene followed by Rhaegar telling Elia that he must leave to make that third head? If he had Lyanna in mind (he'd already met her) then wouldn't her children be the true children of "ice and fire"?

I think "the song of ice and fire" can refer to a person's destiny just as easily as their heritage. Yes, Jon's heritage can be interpreted as a song of ice and fire, but perhaps Aegon's destiny is one of ice and fire. Therefore, Aegon's destiny really could be one of ice and fire if he ends up married to Sansa or Arya, since as you say that phrase has been used to refer to a potential Targaryen/Stark marriage.

Anyhow, I think the "song" is a song sung by a dragon. The second time Dany dreams of a dragon, she gives birth to a black dragon that sings to her and has her blood on it and the dragon burns her "clean". I think this was the bonding between Dany and Drogon. From the imagery in the dream Dany's song is a song of "Fire and Blood". I think each of the dragons will sing a song to their rider and that will be the rider's "song".

As far as the rest of the vision, I think it is a mistake to think that this scene ever occurred in real life. I think it is a mystical vision designed to "tell" Dany something. The child in the vision is referred to as Aegon. We are told his is the song of ice and fire. Then Rhaegar lifts his head and looks at Dany and says there needs to be one more since the dragon has three heads. The vision is telling Dany the dragon has three heads, Dany, Aegon and one more. To speculate whether Rhaegar was right or wrong about his beliefs is entirely beside the point since it is not Rhaegar telling Dany this. It is "Rhaegar" a mystical vision, not Rhaegar the man.

 

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 5:54 PM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Wait, was Aegon's birth among smoke and salt? Because he was born on DS?

This whole prophecy thing is unclear. If Aegon had been the PtwP, the comet should have been seen at his birth, right? Does it apply to the time of conception too?

Actually, Aegon WAS born on Dragonstone, so he was born among smoke and salt. Somehow I missed that obvious connection until now. Thank you.

Anyhow, as far as the prophecy goes, I have pointed out in the past that I think the two "signs" refer to two different events. This means that it could be signs for two different people. The first sign given is this from Melisandre in ASOS-Chapter 25, "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." I believe this one has already been fulfilled by Dany.

The second one is from ACOK-Chapter 10, "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy upon the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer., the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again and the darkness shall flee before him."

I have cited these two signs in the order I think they will be fulfilled, obviously not in the order given in the books. The reason I says these "signs" represent two separate events is because of the time clues in them. The important time clues in the first prophecy: darkness gathers (long night is not yet here); red star bleeds (comet has already been and gone). Time clues in the second prophecy, a day after a long summer (the first signs occur in summer); cold breath of darkness (the long night has begun); the starS bleed (I think this represents falling stars not another comet). I really think the second set of signs represent another event with another person. My guess is Jon.

Anyway, I think the prophecy has been chopped up and presented in bits and pieces and out of order to make it as mysterious as possible. However, I think vision Rhaegar is one of the few who seems to understand the prophecy is referring to three people.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Until I return, do not allow anybody into the tower and that's an order ! Thus that would explain why Ned wasn't allowed to entered the tower and they was forbidden to flee and the King's Guard would be force to protect the baby whether it is either male or female .

[Greywater-Watch]

Probably a stupid question: Did the Kings Guard follow orders from Rhaegar or from King Aerys II?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Probably a stupid question: Did the Kings Guard follow orders from Rhaegar or from King Aerys II?

Both. Of course, Aerys had the seniority, but Rhaegar was the senior Targ on the site.

I personally imagine that at the TOJ, Ser White Bull passed the message from the king, the prince said "OK, OK, fine, I'm going win the war for him, but in the meantime you three stay here and guard her until I relieve you, understood?".

Which is what they did until shit hit the fan, a bucket (King's Landing) after a bucket (the Trident), when they realized that they were in a "the king is dead, long live the king" situation. They had reevaluate and decide, what to do next, and some dead kings' and princes' orders were not the only, and probably not the primary, factor.