Dead or Somewhat Dead

[Curled Finger]

With so little information regarding The Others and years to ponder their condition, my thoughts turn to those characters that I believe to be dead to varying degrees in an effort to understand The Others, R’hllor, wights and Qyburn.

The characters I’m certain are dead are:

Beric Dondarrion              Reanimated multiple times by Thoros of Myr

Lady Stone Heart             Reanimated by Beric Dondarrion

Wights                              Army of the Dead

Coldhands                        Said to have been killed long ago, black extremities, doesn’t eat or sleep

Melisandre                        Doesn’t eat or sleep, has black blood

Beric’s smoking black blood was capable of lighting swords, Coldhands’ black blood coagulates in his hands (and presumably feet), Mel’s black blood is evident in her womanly functions of shadow baby birth and whatever the hell type of bleeding it is she does in her POV chapter in ADWD.   It’s interesting that the black blood seems to have life giving properties in both Beric and Mel.  Is this due to relatively quick reanimation?  Is this a reanimation via Red Priest side effect exclusively?  If so, what are we to make of Coldhands?  The wights, LSH and Coldhands seem to require their life blood even if it appears to be stagnant in all.  Interestingly, parts of the wights remain animated even if separated from the body. 

The characters that share similarities with those in the 1^st category but are not confirmed to have died are:

Gregor Clegane                Rises after rumored death as Ser Robert Strong  who is said not to even visit the privy

Victarion Greyjoy              Smoking black arm

Gregor was stabbed and poisoned by Oberyn Martell.   Pycell attempts to treat Gregor to no avail. Qyburn reports that Gregor is dying, “his veins have turned black from head to heel, his water is clouded with pus, and the venom has eaten a hole in his side as large as my fist. It is a wonder that the man is still alive, if truth be told."  Cersei 2 AFFC

Victarion grabbed an opponent’s sword during a fight on the Shield Islands.  His hand bleeds and becomes infected over the course of Feast and Dance.   This wound is treated by Vic himself, the Dusky Woman, Maester Kerwin and finally, Moqorro.    “his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers as he pointed at the maester.” The Iron Suitor ADWD.  Review of the wound reveals increasing pus and pain up to the Moqorro treatment. 

We not permitted to learn what happens during the course of treatment of either um, transformed character.  Moqorro is a Red Priest of R’hllor, but Qyburn appears to be something entirely else.   Early in the Victarion POV we are told that maesters know spells. 

Are there any other characters with black blood I’ve overlooked?   This black blood seems to be the thing most easily traced to the Red Priests.   Coldhands’ black hands may be a very natural progression of death where this fiery black blood seems to be something else.    Coldhands could easily be a warged creature, but it is possible some Red Priest actually gave him a life after death?  With all these dead, mostly dead and somewhat dead characters to compare, what can we safely assume the Others actually are?   Are they agents of the Great Other?  Are there any other antigods in our Planetos pantheon?   Is there really only 1 Great Other? 

We’ve got Mel, Moqorro and Thoros as practicing Red Priests, presumably all with the power to read night fires and possibly resurrect life from death.   We haven’t seen Mel perform a resurrection, but I think it’s clear she has herself been resurrected.  We’ve seen Thoros’ kiss of life actually pass from the man he kissed, Beric Dondarrion, to Lady Stoneheart when Thoros refuses to give the kiss to her.   Can all creatures given the kiss of life pass their gift on?   What did Moqorro do to Vic that causes Vic’s arm to blacken and fingers to smoke?  Is there some gift the Red Priests have that just transforms limbs?  What of Qyburn then?  What exactly are Victarion Greyjoy and Gregor Clegane? 

If there is some sort of hierarchy to the gifts the Red Priests possess it is reasonable to assume there is a similarity to the Others’ gifts that can create the differences between wights and Coldhands?  Is it possible that skinchanging, green gifts and the ability to warg are some sort of Others’ magic?  Where the Red Priests seem capable of resurrecting a person it seems that the wights have no independent consciousness or thought.    But Coldhands does seem prohibited from certain entrances indicating some sort of consciousness in his form of life after death.   The Red Priests seem to more or less resurrect life whereas the North dead seem to be reanimated in large. 

I look forward to your thoughts, things that never blipped on my radar and general ideas on all.  If you’ve got a good case for a character I’ve failed to mention, please feel free to lay it down here for further discussion.   

[Yaya]

Great pile of questions

 

How about the "fools" - I think we are all overlooking this sort of character(s) in the books:
Shireen's fool Patches - this dude was was dead and brought back to life - apparantly being dead for a while.
he has some great insights to the happenings under the water ...
The one that Catelyn slices ... even Hodor for that matter, we are never sure what happened to him.
Are there other fools I do not know of?  Anyhow, definately Shirleen's fool, he was once dead for sure.

Also, one should consider the Damphair's work in all the drownings he's completed - maybe count those  "what is dead may never die" Ironfolk in some sort of quasi-black blood state ... perhaps when these drowned men do eventually die they form the ARMY of the DEAD?

[Curled Finger]

You ROCK, @Yaya.   This is about half of the original piece, but it got very long and complicated so my excellent editor in chief had me trim it down to focus the topic on the black blood and possible connections in behaviors.    But yes, I was all about Patchface and I was warned to put all the Drowned God stuff in.    As I say it just got really big.   I wonder about the connections between the ice deaths and 2nd lives, the red resurrections and just happened upon a quote from Mel's chapter this evening where she makes mention of black blooded demons hmmm..and the mass death & revival cycle inherent in the Drowned God's rituals.   Easy now, this is book forum and we all know Hodor is safely tucked away in the 3EC's cave with the kids...

Since it's just you and me here, I actually had a 3rd category of characters I thought may have died and been resurrected including Dany, Bran, Tyrion and probably Jon in the future.    But this is enough and I guess the other "could be" dead don't count if we're focusing on supernatural death and life after.   I'm positive about my 1st 5 and reasonably sure about Vic--it's Gregor and Qyburn who have me scratching my head here.   If Qyburn is able to yank a sort of life from death that's an altogether 4th category.  So where do the Others and the ice death/life cycle fit in?  Seems a shame to have nothing but a bunch of clumsy wights and far more elegant to include the 2nd life that Varamyr speaks of along with green gifts and the ability to skin change or warg?   Just a thought, but those damned Others have to be able to do more than animate a bunch of automatons--right???

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Beric’s smoking black blood was capable of lighting swords, Coldhands’ black blood coagulates in his hands (and presumably feet), Mel’s black blood is evident in her womanly functions of shadow baby birth and whatever the hell type of bleeding it is she does in her POV chapter in ADWD.   It’s interesting that the black blood seems to have life giving properties in both Beric and Mel.  Is this due to relatively quick reanimation?  Is this a reanimation via Red Priest side effect exclusively?  If so, what are we to make of Coldhands?  The wights, LSH and Coldhands seem to require their life blood even if it appears to be stagnant in all.  Interestingly, parts of the wights remain animated even if separated from the body. 

I think you may be making too much of the "black blood". GRRM describes blood as black several times throughout the books which wouldn't support the character being anything other than normal. 

Drogo:

Quote

Khal Drogo thrashed, fighting some unseen enemy.Black blood ran slow and thick from his open wound.

Sandor:

Quote

Outside, a swirling lance of jade light spit at the stars, filling the room with green glare. She saw him for a moment, all black and green, the blood on his face dark as tar, his eyes glowing like a dog's in the sudden glare. Then the light faded and he was only a hulking darkness in a stained white cloak.

Del (a wildling Summer killed):

Quote

Ghost leapt the Wall. Then the lightning turned the night to day, and he saw the wolf standing on Del's chest, blood running black from his jaws. Grey. He's grey.

The man Jon refused to kill:

Quote

He could feel the throb of pain where her arrow had gone through the meat and muscle of his thigh. He remembered the old man's eyes too, and the black blood rushing from his throat as the storm cracked overhead.

Tris Botley:

Quote

"You want a woman, well and good. I'll put one in your bed tonight. Pretend she's me, if that will give you pleasure, but do not presume to grab at me again. I am your queen, not your wife. Remember that." Asha sheathed her dirk and left him standing there, with a fat drop of blood slowly creeping down his neck, black in the pale light of the moon.

Used in a description from a Brienne POV:

Quote

I am the only child the gods let him keep. The freakish one, not fit to be a son or daughter." All of it came pouring out of Brienne then, like black blood from a wound; 

Cersei's Magi rememberance:

Quote

In the dim green tent, the blood seemed more black than red.

Ralf Kenning:

Quote

He still had fingers enough to clasp the hilt. When he laid the edge of the blade against the swollen throat of the creature on the straw, the skin split open in a gout of black blood and yellow pus.

Drogon: 

Quote

The dragon gave one last hiss and stretched out flat upon his belly. Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands.

There are also several times where GRRM uses "dried black blood".  There are dreams as well which have "black blood" described in them.

I love the idea of this post, but I think GRRM just uses "black blood" to describe. 

But hey, I could be wrong! 

[Curled Finger]

@OtherFromAnotherMother, that's good stuff there, thanks.   As I was composing I thought of the brothers of the Night's Watch claiming to have black blood often and proudly and have to wonder how and if that fits in as well.    A couple of your quotes are easily interpreted as appearance or perceptions, but I have to research a couple of them to be sure.   Nonetheless, I really appreciate your information here and look forward to other readers ideas regarding your citations.    

If black blood is just poetry and not indicative of life after death what do you make of Beric, LSH, Mel (especially since you've got an interesting topic going your own bad self), Coldhands and the wights?   Gregor and Victarion?   

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

@OtherFromAnotherMother, that's good stuff there, thanks.   As I was composing I thought of the brothers of the Night's Watch claiming to have black blood often and proudly and have to wonder how and if that fits in as well.    A couple of your quotes are easily interpreted as appearance or perceptions, but I have to research a couple of them to be sure.   Nonetheless, I really appreciate your information here and look forward to other readers ideas regarding your citations.    

If black blood is just poetry and not indicative of life after death what do you make of Beric, LSH, Mel (especially since you've got an interesting topic going your own bad self), Coldhands and the wights?   Gregor and Victarion?   

Don't get me wrong here. I love your idea for this post (at least what I think you are trying to d). I just don't think generalizing everyone with "black blood" into the same category is the right way to do it. Maybe that is not your intention, but it kind of appears this way. 

Obviously something is up with the people you mentioned but I think we need to look at each of them individually. There are probably similarities between them sure, but I don't think we can put Vic, LS, and a wight in the same category. 

Am I making sense? It's hard to put down your thoughts first thing in the morning...

[Lord Vance II]

I think in many cases, "black blood" is just used because its what happens to drying blood. But in most of the cases you've mentioned, I think it's more to say that something's up, but not specifically one deity or process. 

I want to say Coldhands was never fully dead. I don't know if it's just not mentioned, but wights never seem to have the same blackened limbs. Coldhand's says it happened when his heart stopped beating, which I think leaves wiggle room to say he was dying and then revived...biology shut down and magic took over. The pooling in the limbs kind of implies he was doing a lot of standing while it congealed. Maybe that's why the Others don't control him...maybe you have to actually die first. 

I think it's a similar deal with UnGregor. Qyburn kept him "alive" long enough to overcome the biologic damage his wounds/poison did. I don't mean to say that the same power is keeping both Coldhands and UnGregor alive, but I think they're similar in that they were never fully dead. I don't think Victarion was even on death's door necessarily. To me his blackened arm is just the product of fire magic and his blood is presumably still red. 

Quote

Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood. - Bran III, AGoT

Didn't see this one above. Most people think the "giant" is UnGregor, who we know does have thick black blood. 

Also don't see Mel has having been dead. I think her black blood just comes from life-prolonging magic and stuff. Her body might not be the same, but I don't think shes wight-ish. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

I think in many cases, "black blood" is just used because its what happens to drying blood. But in most of the cases you've mentioned, I think it's more to say that something's up, but not specifically one deity or process. 

 

Yes. There are many more instances where "black blood" is used for drying blood. 

However. I did not list those in my earlier post. I excluded those excepts purposefully. 

[sweetsunray]

11 hours ago, Yaya said:

Great pile of questions

 

Are there other fools I do not know of? 

Dontos is a fool, Shagwell is a fool, and then you have metaphorical fools like men that are fools for their women.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Lord Vance II said:

I don't know if it's just not mentioned, but wights never seem to have the same blackened limbs.

It is mentioned: Jafer Flowers and Othor are two wights found near the weriwood grove where Sam and Jon say their NW vows. Jeor and company inspect the bodies and they note how their extremities are black from gathered blood, while the rest of them is white like a corpse. We get a reference to Othor's black hands in Jeor's rooms when Jon and Ghost fight with him as well. It's typical for wights. Which is why Sam meeting Coldhands and noting his black hands is all that is empahised about him. He's only different from wights because he doesn't have blue-starry eyes.

[Lord Vance II]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It is mentioned: Jafer Flowers and Othor are two wights found near the weriwood grove where Sam and Jon say their NW vows.

Ah, my bad. 

[Lord Vance II]

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Beric’s smoking black blood was capable of lighting swords

Probably unrelated...but according to this site's Wiki, Drogon's blood is black and smoking. I couldn't find any other reference to the color of dragon blood. The Princess and the Queen mentions "black blood" on Sunfyre, but it's old and crusted, so it could very well have been red when it was fresh.

Drogon is, of course, very much alive. But if one character's black blood lights swords on fire...and another breathes fire and happens to have black blood, could be of some significance. Or none. 

[Curled Finger]

18 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

Probably unrelated...but according to this site's Wiki, Drogon's blood is black and smoking. I couldn't find any other reference to the color of dragon blood. The Princess and the Queen mentions "black blood" on Sunfyre, but it's old and crusted, so it could very well have been red when it was fresh.

Drogon is, of course, very much alive. But if one character's black blood lights swords on fire...and another breathes fire and happens to have black blood, could be of some significance. Or none. 

Great catch and tends to line up with my thinking here.  R'hllor or fire life is magic and causes this smoking black blood.  I think many of us already thought this but what does it say about Others or ice life magic?  Trying to reply from work  will do better tonight with a real keyboard.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

I've recently re-read the chapter on the quiet isle in AFFC with th gravedigger who is widely theorised to be Sandor Clegane.  We are told in this chapter of the incredible healing powers of the Elder Brother - better even than masters.  He also tells us that he was with Sandor / The Hound when he died.  I know this is very cleverly worded so that one could interpret it as The Hound has died/gone, i.e. Sandor Clegane is no longer that person.  However, it made me wonder if he actually did die and the Elder Brother resurrected him, which made him give up being The Hound.

All the 'definitely' resurrected characters seem to have a singular purpose that drives them - for Beric it is protection & justice for the smallfolk, for LS it is revenge, for un-Gregor it is protection of Cersei & Tommen, for Coldhands it seems to be helping Bran get to Bloodraven, for the wights it is killing the living.  (I'm not 100% sure whether Mel has been resurrected or has just had her life unnaturally extended like Bloodraven but wth fire instead of weirwood.).  It will be interesting to see if Sandor has a singular purpose that will drive him now, or maybe he will still just want to kill his brother. I have a feeling he will do some good though as I think he is another character on a redemption arc.

Coldhands may have been resurrected by fire (COTF?) before the Others could resurrect him with ice magic, hence why he looks like a wight but is more 'human'.

[Lost Melnibonean]

How about Davos? 

[Clegane'sPup]

Enjoyed your OP Curled Finger. I was going to add Davos but I was by LM.

[Seams]

The entire Night's Watch?

Once a man had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard's heart. He'd had Mikken make a sword for Arya once, a bravo's blade, made small to fit her hand. Needle. (ADwD, Jon VI)

I think the people with black blood are all weapons. It's no coincidence that Jon switches from describing black blood to talking about the sword he had made for Arya. The black blood represents melted iron that can be molded to make new weapons. Thus, Melisandre bleeds black when she gives birth to her shadow baby - she is a forge and the shadow is the weapon. There seems to be a lot of overlap between shadows and swords. Like melted iron, shadows are "cast" when someone lights a flame, such as a torch in the Winterfell crypt.

Since each Night's Watch brother is a "sword in the darkness," it would make sense that they would have black blood, even it it's just a metaphor for their loyalty to the Watch.

The description of Melisandre's blood as "black as ink" is probably because of the pun between "words" and "swords." Tywin says that some wars are fought with words and some with swords. People also carry both messages and blades in their belts.

[Yaya]

Hi CurledFinger and Everyone - thanks for the thoughts

CF - I've taken to liking your ideas ...
I've tried to catagorize and logically group the DEAD - is this in line with how you were thinking?

RFC please!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st level DEAD
Medically resurrected or revived:
Drowned God's ritual survivors   (hmmm, what do they do with the failures?)
Dany
Bran
Tyrion
Davos
future Jon
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
2nd level DEAD
NEVER really DEAD then BLOOD/FIRE/WATER/ICE MAGIC applied:
Ser Strong/unGregor    ? Said not to even visit the privy
Victarion Greyjoy          ? Smoking black arm - he eats though .... doesn't he?
Melisandre                    ? Doesn’t eat or sleep, has black blood
Patchface                      ? Do we know if he eats?  He creeps me out
[the 2nd life                   ? That Varamyr speaks of - where is this passage?]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
3rd level DEAD
REALLY DEAD then BLOOD/FIRE/WATER/ICE MAGIC applied:
Beric Dondarrion         Reanimated multiple times by Thoros of Myr
Lady Stone Heart        Reanimated by Beric Dondarrion
"GreyScale Ghosts"    They give out the grey scale - stay away!
Wights                         The Army of the Dead
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
4th level DEAD
DEAD AGAIN with more BLOOD/FIRE/WATER/ICE MAGIC applied:
(prerequisites of either level 2 or 3 or NOT confirmed to have died first)
(this could be where the "what is dead never dies" saying of the DROWNED GOD PEOPLE)
the OTHERS       Totally unknown
Coldhands           Said to have been killed long ago, black extremities, doesn’t eat or sleep
DRAGONS          Smoking blood, fire breathing!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I added:
Davos as Level 1 DEAD
the "GreyScale Ghosts" into the listing - are they Level 3 DEAD or just a bunch of hobos?
Patchface is in there too, should he be a Level 2 DEAD or 1?
 Also, since dragons have the SMOKING BLOOD I think that they are probably the only beasts that can kill the 4th level DEAD which is why I put them in there - they aren't dead but they may be "born" again through the EGG HATCHING MAGIC that seems to have to happen.

as I mentioned RFC:
Is Victarion Level 2 DEAD ? 
What is the 2nd life, I must have been drinking when I read through that ...

Ahoy!

 

 

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Don't get me wrong here. I love your idea for this post (at least what I think you are trying to d). I just don't think generalizing everyone with "black blood" into the same category is the right way to do it. Maybe that is not your intention, but it kind of appears this way. 

Obviously something is up with the people you mentioned but I think we need to look at each of them individually. There are probably similarities between them sure, but I don't think we can put Vic, LS, and a wight in the same category. 

Am I making sense? It's hard to put down your thoughts first thing in the morning...

No, not everyone.   Just those with that peculiar black blood in conjunction with other strangeness, like that blood lighting swords or spontaneous gushing during reverie or not using the privy or requiring food or sleep...or smoking.   That black blood is important and allows me to concentrate on these most peculiar beings instead of everyone else.   For the record, I think you're right and we can't put Vic and/or LSH in the same death category.   I've just lumped them all together as dead reanimated/resurrected.   I'm trying to figure out why there are differences between those revived by fire and wights and Coldhands for that matter.   You've had your coffee, what have you to say then? 

[Blackfyre Bastard]

9 minutes ago, Yaya said:

Hi CurledFinger and Everyone - thanks for the thoughts

CF - I've taken to liking your ideas ...
I've tried to catagorize and logically group the DEAD - is this in line with how you were thinking?

RFC please!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st level DEAD
Medically resurrected or revived:
Drowned God's ritual survivors   (hmmm, what do they do with the failures?)
Dany
Bran
Tyrion
Davos
future Jon
 

 

You forgot Sam. He drowned in a canal in Braavos and was revived by a Summer Islander.

I don't think Victarion fully died. His arm was just presenting necrosis and Moqorro gave him a Super Cool Smoking Undead Arm.