Dead or Somewhat Dead

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Only after Dany's visit. Before that, they seem to be in a state similar to Bloodraven, but not really dead.

Speaking of Bloodraven, he tells Bran that he was once "black of blood." I think he meant he belonged to the NW, but who knows?

I thought Dany smote them sure enough.   Then I find them on the Silence eating each other.   Hmmmm....

I added Bloodraven to Yaya's Chart of the Dead.   He couldn't really be 127 years old, could he?  He's got branches growing out of his eye.  I'm thinking he's some sort of dead anyway.   But since you bring it up, I would like to see the color of his blood, though I bet it's red like weirwood sap.  Gross.   So what would you call that?   

 

[kimim]

35 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

...Tell me, do you think that in the case of Gregor and Vic that this could be the case--they've simply become gangrenous instead of dead?  I put a great deal on those smoking fingers of Victarion's so straighten me out will ya?   

idk!

"Black blood" as gangrene or the result of some type of poisoning:

• When Drogo is dying of an infected wound, "black blood ran slow and thick from his open wound."
• Reek cuts the hopelessly poisoned Ironborn captain, and "the skin split open in a gout of black blood and yellow pus."
• When Kerwin tries to cut the infection out of Victarion's hand, "blood welled up as well as pus, blood so dark that it looked black in the lantern light."

The poisoned wound is represented by liquid: pus, black blood. Moqorro does something with an iron knife and burns the blood and pus out of the hand, turning it into something that's been "charred and blackened," but also healthy and strong. So the black blood is poison, death, while the black, charred, smoking hand is, supposedly, life, from a red priest's pov.

[Curled Finger]

17 minutes ago, kimim said:

idk!

"Black blood" as gangrene or the result of some type of poisoning:

• When Drogo is dying of an infected wound, "black blood ran slow and thick from his open wound."
• Reek cuts the hopelessly poisoned Ironborn captain, and "the skin split open in a gout of black blood and yellow pus."
• When Kerwin tries to cut the infection out of Victarion's hand, "blood welled up as well as pus, blood so dark that it looked black in the lantern light."

The poisoned wound is represented by liquid: pus, black blood. Moqorro does something with an iron knife and burns the blood and pus out of the hand, turning it into something that's been "charred and blackened," but also healthy and strong. So the black blood is poison, death, while the black, charred, smoking hand is, supposedly, life, from a red priest's pov.

Ah.  So now I get to consider the Red Priests as healers.  Great.   There is actually something to that though it's still fairly foreign to me at this point.   Black blood as poison is going to haunt me, you know that, right?   Still, I think I could let go of Gregor, maybe even Vic since you're the 1st to point out that his hand is charrred and blackened but healthy and strong, but the smoking fingers still bug me.   Love to hear any thoughts you have on that condition.  Thank you so much for taking time to offer more detail to your explanation.   

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

 

@Yaya 

o put the Undying in somewhere on the cart.  I'm dying to know where you and 

I meant the word play. Hehe. 

For the Undying. Found this from Dany IV in CoK: 

Quote

She is not breathing. Dany listened to the silence. None of them are breathing, and they do not move, and those eyes see nothing. Could it be that the Undying Ones were dead?

 

[Curled Finger]

8 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I meant the word play. Hehe. 

For the Undying. Found this from Dany IV in CoK: 

 

I'm not clever enough for word play, my friend.   Just a poor job putting it together.  As for your citation, thank you very much.   I remembered the silence and thinking she killed them, but then I also remembered that a group of them set out to find her.   I get the Undying and the 13 mixed up quite a bit.   I think some were dead 

Spoiler

but I read the latest Aeron transcriptions and think this is the craziest thing.   I mean Euron shows up with 4 warlocks and we hear all about the last one saying Pree Pree, but I've never been good at the symbolism of hallucinogenic trips.   

So maybe only some were dead.   Still an interesting group to look at in this discussion.   

[fire&blood]

This is a great thread.... Still reading through all the replies. Just a quick question...Davos drowned? Is this in the Blackwater? And no one helps him, he just washes ashore and that boat finds him?

 

Thanks.

[sweetsunray]

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I have to ask what your thoughts on the general premise is sweetsunray.  You know this tale like no one else's business and I would value your input. 

What do I think of all those dead? And how can they be resurrected or why? Well, for me initially we see living characters in an underworld setting, where we could regard everything North of the Neck as "underworld realm" (except a few subterranean locations South). In the underworld though, the dead aren't dead-dead. Think Odysseus and Aeneas journeying there to talk and meet with one of the deceased, or Dante making his Divine Comedy journey. Important is that those of the underworld stay there (no desertion). Some may be called on to settle some business in the normal world, but they ought to return and just keep to their underworldly business. But then the normal world starts to mess with and dictate the underworld. If the living take Cerberus away, then the underworld lost a guardian to keep everything under control. If we were to chop Hades's head off and assign one of the flaying Mexican death gods there, and other stuff like that, you're bound to get into trouble. And if you then also turn a normal world into hell (the Riverlands), well then you kindof blur the lines between death and life altogether.

The Riverlands is very interesting in that regard, because Beric gets resurrected there, and becomes an underground figure in multiple ways. He is the leader of an "underground resistance", his new home is a cave, and he is un-dead, in a world that is becoming a living hell more and more. This almost coincides with Robb Stark (new lord of North/Underworld) going South, "crossing" into the "normal" world, and adding it to his kingdom. Now the underworld = the Riverlands + North + Beyond the Wall, where dead are alive (Beric), and where living are declared dead (Bran, Rickon, Arya). You can see that as a measure, to try and preserve the boundaries. And even after Beric actually gives up his life and passes it to Catelyn to resurrect her as LS, he is still somehow alive, because other men use his name and lightning bolt to pretend that he is alive. The underworld's task is to keep the dead from getting back to the terrestrial world. If you can't prevent that from happening, then one of the measures would be to declare an area as part of the underworld. In that way, the dead remain in the underworld. The whole concept of death and being alive becomes blurred for characters in that enlarged underworld area.

This "underworld" area has been spilling over into the Crownlands though (with Roose sending Glover and Karstark to Duskendale). That was always a risk, because the geographical border between the Riverlands and Crownlands has always been blurry. To stop KL (aka Mount Olympus) from messing with the underworld, the underworld eventually must claim it. The first sign that this is starting to happen is Qyburn able to make an unGregor. I expect that the Vale will be annexed to it as well (an underworld daughter is being kept there).

As for the drowned. The sea was always an "underworld" as well.... "under the sea". So, that blurring of who is dead and who is alive has always been part of it. The "drowned men" is something that occurred long before aGoT. And what we see is that after Ned is imprisoned and beheaded, and Robb goes South, the masters of the underworldly sea (Ironborn and Stannis) as well as this flaying Mexican underworld ruler (Roose) try to gain the power seat over the underworld.

Black blood means "death" to me. Black is one of the certain words that George uses affiliated to any description related to death or underworld. Normally we would see words such as "blood", "flowers", "breath", etc as symbols or signs of life. But in the underworld the dead live too, just a different sort of life. So, when George wants us to associate these typical "life" symbols with the underworld or death instead, he will talk of "black blood", "frosty blue flowers" and "cold breath". Someone who is "black blooded" (literal or figuartive) either brings death or is dead or is an underworld character. ETA: @kimim just noticed you expressed the same "black blood" idea already. We are in total agreement on that.

So, for me the specifics of who was actually dead and resurrected does not actually matter all that much. George himself blurs those lines increasingly. It is possible that the Hound did in fact die, and that EB managed to resurrect him with his healing hands. EB himself may be classified as a drowned one, like Patchface, or Aeron (I did not see him specifically mentioned). The fact that he lives in a hermit's cave on some isle with apples (Arthurian) makes him underworldly anyhow. But it is doubtful that this could have happened imo without Robb "crossing" and annexing the Riverlands to the North. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm not clever enough for word play, my friend.   Just a poor job putting it together.  As for your citation, thank you very much.   I remembered the silence and thinking she killed them, but then I also remembered that a group of them set out to find her.   I get the Undying and the 13 mixed up quite a bit.   I think some were dead 

  Reveal hidden contents

but I read the latest Aeron transcriptions and think this is the craziest thing.   I mean Euron shows up with 4 warlocks and we hear all about the last one saying Pree Pree, but I've never been good at the symbolism of hallucinogenic trips.   

So maybe only some were dead.   Still an interesting group to look at in this discussion.   

The Undying and the warlocks are not the same thing. 

Quote

The pale man with the blue lips replied in guttural Dothraki, "I am Pyat Pree, the great warlock."

Quote

"That's not the way," Pyat Pree said firmly, his blue lips prim with disapproval. "The Undying Ones will not wait forever."

Pyat calls himself a warlock. He does not say we. When speaking of the Undying. 

Drogon kills the Undying in the HOTU. Perhaps there were warlocks that were killed were inside as well. However, there must have been some outside when it went down or maybe some survived the collapse. Also, you probably already know but Dany did not kill Pyat.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I hadn't considered motive among my certainly dead group.  Well done!  And weirwood causing Coldhands' life after death--brilliant!  You may be on to something here I like all of it.   I wonder if motive is the thing that R'hllor feeds off?  Thanks Lady Fishbuscuit, you've given me much to ponder here.   

Glad to offer some food for thought!

I'm not even sure if it's their own purpose or a purpose of the gods (or if both amount to the same thing).  We've got people like Davos and patchface who the sea seems to have spat back out (not clear if resurrected or simply prevented from dying). Same with the Elder brother.  Like Syrio Forel, the sea said "not today".  

We've also got lots of comments about the gods not being done with certain people, so it seems to me that some people must fulfil a specific destiny or purpose and, if they die too soon, the gods allow them to be saved/resurrected.  This would mean that resurrection is not possible for just anyone and the person and the circumstances need to be right.  I think Jon can and will be resurrected because he has a destiny to fulfil (LH / PTWP). 

Similarly some people have unnaturally extended lives (the warlocks, Mel, Bloodraven) but some of this life extension may be a corruption of the gods' magic rather than devine intervention.  I'd include Euron with the Warlocks because it seems he is using similar magic to them.  No idea about Moqorro and Victarion but if I was feeling a bit tinfoily I might theorise that his arm seems to be a fire version of greyscale (flesh made fire rather than flesh made stone)... I wonder if it will spread any further!  Qyburn saved Jaime's life but what he is doing with Gregor may have crossed the line into corruption/abomination against the gods.    

Re: Beric and LS: Thoros resurrected Beric by accident the first time performing a death ritual he had done many times before without this result.  Maybe he was put in Beric's path in order that the gods could use him to resurrect Beric. Beric IMHO passed on the life fire to Cat/LS on purpose and it makes me wonder what drove him to do that? If it was just a desire to be released from the constant resurrections, why choose Cat?  I've a feeling that he was under some divine guidance when he did that, but again why her?  Is she then destined to pass the fire on to someone else once she has retribution for the Freys breaking sacred guest-right? (I realise these are questions we can't answer right now and may never become clear!)

Not sure how any of that applies to the others & the wights, but maybe the battle for the dawn is needed to restore balance and they are essential to making that battle happen.

I have a strong feeling (with no evidence to back it up) that the magic keeping the undead/resurrected going will fade once the battle for the dawn is won and balance is restored.  I think Jon will know this is going to happen and accept his fate for the greater good.  Fits right in with his tragic hero character.

[YOVMO]

On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 10:02 PM, Curled Finger said:

 

 

I look forward to your thoughts, things that never blipped on my radar and general ideas on all.  If you’ve got a good case for a character I’ve failed to mention, please feel free to lay it down here for further discussion.   

 

Great posts and questions. I wish I had more answers but I will just give more questions. Obviously black blood is a signal.

 In AGOT Arya III

You might say as Benjen Stark is why were talking, though. His blood ran black. Made him my brother as much as yours.

--Yoren to Ned

What is even more interesting is that all NW members essentially have "black blood" and there is def something mystical going on up at the wall.

Of course the life or death or unlife of Benjen is a question. Can this be foreshadowing.

 

When Dany sacrifices Drogo's stallion "The stallion's blood looked black in the flickering orange glare of the torches.

In ACOK John III sam tells john "Dolorous Edd says Craster's a terrible Savage. He marries his daughters and objeys no laws but those he makes himself and Dywen told Green he's got black blood in his veins." and also "Craster's blood is black and he bears a heavy curse"

Here is a really interesting one I think is fun. In ASOS when Jamie gives Oathkeeper to Brienne and the sword is described "Blood and Black the ripples shone" And, of course, Oathkeeper is a resurrected sword.

 

Here is another one that is a little odd.....AFFC The Reaver "Volmark is a callow boy, but he has Black Harren's blood in him through his mother" Now Maron Volmark was just named by Euron as lord of Greenshield so he will have some part to play in the future...either being deposed or whatever....but while his blood isn't literally black it is the blood of black harren so keep an eye on him. IN fact, in TWOIAF the Hoare family is said to have black blood and the chapter on the Iron Islands is even called "The Iron Islands: The Black Blood"

Another interesting thing is that When Brienne is on the QI and all of a sudden opens up and tells the Elder Brother (who I believe is one of the fishiest characters in the story thus far) "it all came pouring out of Brienne like black blood from a wound"

 

Bloodraven tells bran in ADWD BRAN II that he was once a crow "black of cloak and black of blood" and we know his status of being alive is fishy.

 

In what I believe to be the most important of prophecies, when Tyrion is talking about the doom of valyria, he talks about "the black blood of demons" raining down from the skies.

We also learn in ADWD in Daenerys IX that dragonsblack blood. I think this is important because if birthing the dragon requires a blood sacrifice, whether or not dragons are organically alive or more akin to a firey version of the others or cold hands remains to be seen. Also Sunfyre, in princess and the queen, bleeds black blood.

 

Just a couple of things on that oddball black blood.

 

 

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

On 9/27/2016 at 9:44 AM, Lord Vance II said:

Probably unrelated...but according to this site's Wiki, Drogon's blood is black and smoking. I couldn't find any other reference to the color of dragon blood. The Princess and the Queen mentions "black blood" on Sunfyre, but it's old and crusted, so it could very well have been red when it was fresh.

Drogon is, of course, very much alive. But if one character's black blood lights swords on fire...and another breathes fire and happens to have black blood, could be of some significance. Or none. 

Drogon's blood is black but 

Quote

“No,” he screamed, “no, don’t, don’t,” but it was too late. The fool was all that he had time to think as the quarrel caromed off Viserion’s neck to vanish in the gloom. A line of fire gleamed in its wake—dragon’s blood, glowing gold and red.

Viserion's is gold and red. Unless it is just appearing gold and red because of a torch? At this point in Quentyn's encounter neither dragon had released any fire I don't think...

I'm going to read through The Princess and the Queen and Rougue Prince to see if we see some other dragon blood references. 

[Clegane'sPup]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

These seem almost blah compared to the creatures R'hllor seems capable of bringing forth.  I really hope our wights gain a little jenesequa or I won't be really afraid of them.

Davos and Patchface getting tossed from the sea after drowning is a bit twilight zoney and I gotta admit I had to look up the "J" word. Mel, for me is a confusing character. In a different thread I mentioned my tinfoil is that as Mel bound Mance to her so too does that ruby around her neck bind her to someone or something else. Enjoying the thread.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Quote

Stormcloud had been terribly wounded as he fled, arriving with the stubs of countless arrows embedded in his belly and a scorpion bolt through his neck. He died within the hour, hissing as the hot blood gushed black and smoking from his wounds.

Stormcloud had black blood. 

Quote

On his belly were places where scabs had replaced scales, and where his right eye should have been was only an empty hole, crusted with black blood.

Sunfyre as well.

 

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Davos and Patchface getting tossed from the sea after drowning is a bit twilight zoney and I gotta admit I had to look up the "J" word. Mel, for me is a confusing character. In a different thread I mentioned my tinfoil is that as Mel bound Mance to her so too does that ruby around her neck bind her to someone or something else. Enjoying the thread.

I read that post of yours in that other thread and couldn't agree more.   Nice try, but if I'm backing you how could it possibly be tinfoil!!!   I wasn't going the way of the Drowned God in this one but it sure seems to be making itself known, doesn't it?  There is so much to choose from in general forum, I consider your participation a compliment.  It sure has brought some interesting things to light hasn't it? 

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The Undying and the warlocks are not the same thing. 

Pyat calls himself a warlock. He does not say we. When speaking of the Undying. 

Drogon kills the Undying in the HOTU. Perhaps there were warlocks that were killed were inside as well. However, there must have been some outside when it went down or maybe some survived the collapse. Also, you probably already know but Dany did not kill Pyat.

I definitely require someone to post a HOTU & Players 101 for those of us who spend most of our rereads looking forward to Varamyr's prologue in Dance.   Someone's going to kill Pyat Pree Pree Pree even if it's him eating his own danged self to death.   Reminds me of an old King short story, Survivor Type.   *Shivers*

[Curled Finger]

17 hours ago, fire&blood said:

This is a great thread.... Still reading through all the replies. Just a quick question...Davos drowned? Is this in the Blackwater? And no one helps him, he just washes ashore and that boat finds him?

 

Thanks.

Hi and welcome fire&blood.  Yep, he drowned in the Blackwater and winds up on this tiny island--you're down with the lore, my friend.   Thanks for your kind words and interest here.   Don't ever be shy about jumping right in or asking a question.   Ever.  

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

What do I think of all those dead? And how can they be resurrected or why? Well, for me initially we see living characters in an underworld setting, where we could regard everything North of the Neck as "underworld realm" (except a few subterranean locations South). In the underworld though, the dead aren't dead-dead. Think Odysseus and Aeneas journeying there to talk and meet with one of the deceased, or Dante making his Divine Comedy journey. Important is that those of the underworld stay there (no desertion). Some may be called on to settle some business in the normal world, but they ought to return and just keep to their underworldly business. But then the normal world starts to mess with and dictate the underworld. If the living take Cerberus away, then the underworld lost a guardian to keep everything under control. If we were to chop Hades's head off and assign one of the flaying Mexican death gods there, and other stuff like that, you're bound to get into trouble. And if you then also turn a normal world into hell (the Riverlands), well then you kindof blur the lines between death and life altogether.

The Riverlands is very interesting in that regard, because Beric gets resurrected there, and becomes an underground figure in multiple ways. He is the leader of an "underground resistance", his new home is a cave, and he is un-dead, in a world that is becoming a living hell more and more. This almost coincides with Robb Stark (new lord of North/Underworld) going South, "crossing" into the "normal" world, and adding it to his kingdom. Now the underworld = the Riverlands + North + Beyond the Wall, where dead are alive (Beric), and where living are declared dead (Bran, Rickon, Arya). You can see that as a measure, to try and preserve the boundaries. And even after Beric actually gives up his life and passes it to Catelyn to resurrect her as LS, he is still somehow alive, because other men use his name and lightning bolt to pretend that he is alive. The underworld's task is to keep the dead from getting back to the terrestrial world. If you can't prevent that from happening, then one of the measures would be to declare an area as part of the underworld. In that way, the dead remain in the underworld. The whole concept of death and being alive becomes blurred for characters in that enlarged underworld area.

This "underworld" area has been spilling over into the Crownlands though (with Roose sending Glover and Karstark to Duskendale). That was always a risk, because the geographical border between the Riverlands and Crownlands has always been blurry. To stop KL (aka Mount Olympus) from messing with the underworld, the underworld eventually must claim it. The first sign that this is starting to happen is Qyburn able to make an unGregor. I expect that the Vale will be annexed to it as well (an underworld daughter is being kept there).

As for the drowned. The sea was always an "underworld" as well.... "under the sea". So, that blurring of who is dead and who is alive has always been part of it. The "drowned men" is something that occurred long before aGoT. And what we see is that after Ned is imprisoned and beheaded, and Robb goes South, the masters of the underworldly sea (Ironborn and Stannis) as well as this flaying Mexican underworld ruler (Roose) try to gain the power seat over the underworld.

Black blood means "death" to me. Black is one of the certain words that George uses affiliated to any description related to death or underworld. Normally we would see words such as "blood", "flowers", "breath", etc as symbols or signs of life. But in the underworld the dead live too, just a different sort of life. So,death instead, he will talk of "black blood", "frosty blue flowers" and "cold breath". Someone who is "black blooded" (literal or figuartive) either brings death or is dead or is an underworld character. ETA: @kimim just noticed you expressed the same "black blood" idea already. We are in total agreement on that.

So, for me the specifics of who was actually dead and resurrected does not actually matter all that much. George himself blurs those lines increasingly. It is possible that the Hound did in fact die, and that EB managed to resurrect him with his healing hands. EB himself may be classified as a drowned one, like Patchface, or Aeron (I did not see him specifically mentioned). The fact that he lives in a hermit's cave on some isle with apples (Arthurian) makes him underworldly anyhow. But it is doubtful that this could have happened imo without Robb "crossing" and annexing the Riverlands to the North. 

Oh thank you sweetsunray.   I know you are an authority on many ancient myths and legends.  I've spent a night or 2 listening to the Viking legends in hopes of keeping up, but this is obviously a life's love and work for you.   I've bolded the parts of your reply that struck me most, though your entire post is clear and easy to follow.   I am curious as to how you were able to see the divisions of underworld and terrestrial worlds?   Is this a result of your education and study in ancient mythology?   To be honest, it never once occurred to me to view the kingdoms in this manner, but you make a very good case for this world view.   As I understand this you believe Martin has incorporated--no--based the world of ASOIAF in myth and legend?  The entire thing?  This nether or under world is creeping above ground and these somewhat dead/somewhat living creatures are all part of the natural order of this change in command of the lands as a whole?  I'm with you, but have to ask why?  I get that a balance needs to be struck in all Westeros.   (Please forgive me as my recall of the underworld is limited to vague recollections of the ancient Greek mythology and it was freaking scary way back in grade school--as a child I never considered anything in the underworld was good or helpful to the lands above.)   What of the extraterrestrial?  Shouldn't a type of Heaven also exist in these kingdoms?   

Ha!   I derailed my own topic.   I am certain everyone reading here is fascinated with your take on all this, particularly your lack of apprehension regarding our spooky somewhat dead characters.  You've really offered up a stunning alternative and spooky spin on these somewhat dead.   Hell the entire series for me at any rate.  Thank you so much.   

[Curled Finger]

@Lady Fishbiscuit, yeah, you got me pretty distracted there for a few hours. And I see you will do it again with this!   Holy cow, as I read your reply (and I'm only half through reading it word for word), there is an acceleration of sorts going on with these supernatural interventions, expeditions and corruptions?    Fire version of gray scale?  Brilliant again!   I mentioned in the OP that Vic says the maesters know spells.  We know Marwyn is a magical kind of maester and I can't help but wander into my own tinfoil territory with did Kerwin spellbound Vic's hand?  Is Qyburn a magician or sorcerer as well as a maester?  I've always taken the low road with a Frankenstein view of Qyburn, but what if that's not even close?  Gads, should we be lining all the Red Priests up against all the Maesters?   What could be the North of The Wall version of either?   The Children?   The Others themselves?  

I love this and really appreciate your time in putting all those very cool thoughts down.   

[Yaya]

Alright - I am enjoying this thread too!  Based on the suggestions and great input I've added & moved some about in the chart and removed the comments.
(this chart is for everyone (dedicated to /totally inspired by the thoughts of CF)  - copy and edit as you feel needed, I changed it up from the first post as I have as I find it easier to think things out in chart form)

 

I put the UNDYING in level 1 as they might be like the Drowned God ritual survivors - OR are they level 3 as in do they create or influence visions/dreams or some sort of shadow magic?
Added Damphair to level 1 because he did a drowning thing too, like Davos ... didn't he?
Is Lancel dead?  I haven't watched season 6, don't worry about telling me the 'truth' I can handel it.

 

Personally I think the 'black blood' group needs to stay together which is why I've left unGregor in 2nd level.
Milisandre does/did drink wine as does Victarion so I think they should stay on level 2 as well...
If you all really would like to move them to level 1 then let us do so but I think they have more 'magic' training/ability then the level 1 folks and this is what distinguishes them.
And that brings us to Varamyr - what is he now - permawarg? 

 

As for Bloodraven ... he's gotta be ultra 'magic' to be able to appear in Bran's dreams/thoughts - level 4.
Oh and even though I think the dragons merit thinking about, I've removed them.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st level DEAD
Medically resurrected or revived:

 

Drowned God's ritual survivors
Damphair
The UNDYING
Dany
Bran
Tyrion
Davos
future Jon
Sam  
Pending: Sandor Clegane

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
2nd level DEAD
NEVER really DEAD then BLOOD/FIRE/WATER/ICE MAGIC applied:

 

Ser Strong/unGregor
Victarion
Melisandre
Patchface
Moqorro
Varamyr - no human body remains PERMAWARG.   

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
3rd level DEAD
REALLY DEAD then BLOOD/FIRE/WATER/ICE MAGIC applied:

 

Beric Dondarrion    
Lady Stone Heart      
Wights/Walkers - The Army of the Dead  
                                            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
4th level DEAD
DEAD AGAIN (was L2 or L3) with more BLOOD/FIRE/WATER/ICE MAGIC applied:
(or NOT confirmed to have died first)

 

the OTHERS
Coldhands
Bloodraven

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now who else is missing from the list?

 

 

 

[sweetsunray]

53 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Oh thank you sweetsunray.   I know you are an authority on many ancient myths and legends.  I've spent a night or 2 listening to the Viking legends in hopes of keeping up, but this is obviously a life's love and work for you.   I've bolded the parts of your reply that struck me most, though your entire post is clear and easy to follow.   I am curious as to how you were able to see the divisions of underworld and terrestrial worlds?   Is this a result of your education and study in ancient mythology?   To be honest, it never once occurred to me to view the kingdoms in this manner, but you make a very good case for this world view.   As I understand this you believe Martin has incorporated--no--based the world of ASOIAF in myth and legend?  The entire thing?  This nether or under world is creeping above ground and these somewhat dead/somewhat living creatures are all part of the natural order of this change in command of the lands as a whole?  I'm with you, but have to ask why?  I get that a balance needs to be struck in all Westeros.   (Please forgive me as my recall of the underworld is limited to vague recollections of the ancient Greek mythology and it was freaking scary way back in grade school--as a child I never considered anything in the underworld was good or helpful to the lands above.)   What of the extraterrestrial?  Shouldn't a type of Heaven also exist in these kingdoms?   

Ha!   I derailed my own topic.   I am certain everyone reading here is fascinated with your take on all this, particularly your lack of apprehension regarding our spooky somewhat dead characters.  You've really offered up a stunning alternative and spooky spin on these somewhat dead.   Hell the entire series for me at any rate.  Thank you so much.   

Self taught though I always had a particular fascination for fairytales (I mean the older, non-censored versions) and mythology since I could read. I was still a kid when I had my first mythological encyclopedia of about any hero, demi-god, god(ess) of ancient cultures around the world, and through the years I gathered books on Irish mythology, Mayan, etc. Used it to draw ideas for paintings. 

Hmmm, how did the idea develop? It began with LS and GoHH and reading the Poetic Edda (I read Norse stuff way back, so needed to refresh stuff), and seeing her being thrown in a river in the "Riverlands" and ending up ruling at Hollow Hill with weirwood roots, she very much fit the description of Hel, the ruler of Hel in Niflheim (the misty lands) with its 9 rivers (aka riverlands). GoHH scenes match with both poems of Odin visiting the seer in the underworld, reviving her from her grave, to tell him "news" and "prophecy" in return for gifts, her sharp tongue... So, the RL pretty much struck me as the underworld. And then Brienne's journey in aFfC follows Dante's journey step by step, circle by circle, through Inferno and Limbo. Meanwhile BR's cave matched the well where Odin's eye is hidden in return for wisdom. And I suspected WF had a connection to the third Yggdrasil root place, and the crypts being like a Walhalla.

I then decided to analyse chthonic scenes - chapters or scenes that are set in clear underworld settings: crypts, caves, etc... I started with the visit to the crypts by Ned and Robert. And in doing that I stumbled on Lyanna as Persephone, Queen of the Underworld crypts. Meanwhile I marked words in the quotes that seemed to be related to the underworld setting... George's "underworld lexicon" so to speak. It helped me realize that Robert's speech was not so much as insulting as it was simply used to contrast the death symbolism with life symbolism. So, I veered off into finding evidence for Lyanna's links to Persephone (it totally matches). Then I followed Ned's and Robert's story how Lyanna affected them, which ends with Ned in the dungeons. What was immensely striking was that Ned several times thinks and says "This is her place" as well as "Ths is his place". And in the dungeons, using the beginning lexicon of words tied with "underworld/death" it becomes clear that Ned mirrors the state of the statues in the crypts. He basically turns into a statue. And while he is basically a Lord of WF statue in that dungeon, he damns a list of people: Cersei, Varys, Jaime, Selmy, LF, Renly, Pycelle, Slynt, himself. Read that damning many times without thinking much of it... but once you realize he's like a WF statue in an underworld setting (knowing they are ultiamtely connected), and thus in "his place", that damnation list gets a lot of weight. And what do you know: four are dead already. 

So, that's when i started to get this idea that the underworld is a place of power for the Starks. And indeed, in snowy Godswood of the Eyrie building WF castle, Sansa (as snow maiden) finds quite a lot of courage. Arya in Braavos is also in an underworldly place (man-made rivers, misty, and dead faces, etc). Bran is in a cave. Jon Snow is knifed. So, instead of them thinking as being in a scary, bad place, I thought - hey they are in places that is the source of Stark power.

Then I read Cat's first chapter in the godswood of WF and immediately noticed how the same lexicon pops up in the godswood, and she contrasts it with the Southern godswoods. That's when it becomes very clear that WF is the palace of the underworld, not just the crypts. I rechecked with geographical features both in Norse and Greek myth, and well that's when the concept of the North = Hades, and the Wall and beyond = Tartarus, but conlfated with Norse Walhalla (especially Theon's dream of the dead) and Fate's Well for WF and BR's cave being both Hypnos' cave as well as Mimir's well. And it checks out with Ned's primary focus: deserters, wildlings, and news of the dead.

KL can be considered to be Mouth Olympus, the seat of Zeus (thunder god, thunder lord Robert). But both Robert and Catelyn contrast the South against the North, using life symbolism (fruit, sun, easy living, color, sound, laughter, flowers) for RL, Stormlands and Reach, but the North is "cold", "no people", "stern", etc. But then the RL get annexed.

You can read some of my chthonic essays on my blog (see sig), where at least I established WF and the North (+ beyond the Wall) as heavily tied to being Hades like (and Ned Stark himself matching the ruler Hades very closely as well), using George's own words that creep up time and time again with death (and yep "stone" is definitely one). If you read a scene with darkness, shadows, stone, blindness, silence to whispers, echoes, wilderness, cold, etc you're reading a chthonic scene. And the Persephone essay was also recently turned into a podcast. I haven't nowhere reached the RL yet though.