Why I really hope Tyrion isn't Aerys' son

[Canon Claude]

Tyrion's story has constantly been influenced by his relationship to his family. And of his family members, the one who has had the biggest impact on him is Tywin, his father. Their relationship, fuelled by a grudging admiration and hatred, is one of the most interesting aspects of the whole series. And it makes for a brilliant comeuppance on Tywin's part. The man who cares about his family's legacy is a terrible father in practice. And after all his years of grooming his children to continue the Lannister legacy, the one child who even comes close to Tywin's intellect and brilliance is the child whom he hated. The child whom he would have killed to avenge his beloved wife, had he not decided that Tyrion must live because he was still of his blood.

The irony that Tyrion is Tywin's true heir makes the scene at the privy all the more powerful. Tywin tries so hard to finally be rid of his son, and his own children undo him. Tyrion, freed and enlightened by Jaime, avenges a lifetime of humiliation by murdering Tywin in such a dishonourable manner, which is further compounded by the horrific stench of Tywin's rotting corpse. A fitting end for such a cruel father.

If Tyrion turns out to be Aerys' son, all that conflict goes out the window. Tyrion isn't his father writ small, he's just a by-blow of a crazy king so that GRRM can stick him on top of a dragon like everyone apparently wants, for some reason. All the issues Tyrion has with his father are undermined by the fact that Tywion ISN'T Tywin's biological son. And it undercuts why Tyrion is even alive at all. If Tywin had the slightest idea that Tyrion wasn't his, Tyrion would have been put out of the way immediately. Not even killed; Tywin could have sent him to the Wall at any point on the pure basis of being unworthy to hold the honour of being a Lannister. Tyrion isn't getting revenge on his family by aiding the daughter of Tywin's old enemy: he's having a family reunion with his surprise half-sister. One of those situations is much more interesting than the other.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Just now, Canon Claude said:

Tyrion isn't getting revenge on his family by aiding the daughter of Tywin's old enemy: he's having a family reunion with his surprise half-sister. One of those situations is much more interesting than the other.

Why can't we have both be true?

Tyrion being a secret Targaryen would be a great twist, given the foreshadowing that's already been put in place. Tyrion being obsessed with dragons from a young age, constantly at odds with his father and sister, his physical deformities gained from an incestuous family a la Maegor the Cruel's children, and his brilliance being a Targaryen trait alongside the madness of Aerys.

[devilish]

If there was any doubt that Tyrion was Aerys son, then Tywin would have got rid of him LOOONG time ago. Tyrion is Tywin's son. He's actually the only one sharing his brilliance. The Targs of that generation are as stupid as a plank. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

25 minutes ago, devilish said:

If there was any doubt that Tyrion was Aerys son, then Tywin would have got rid of him LOOONG time ago. Tyrion is Tywin's son. He's actually the only one sharing his brilliance. The Targs of that generation are as stupid as a plank. 

I'm pretty sure nobody in the books has ever described Rhaegar as stupid.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

First, this is all clearly speculation and opinion but I completely disagree...

Tywin could have known Tyrion wasn't his son, he even said so... But the only thing Tywin ever really loved was Johanna, Tyrions mother, so that's why he wouldn't kill him. Plus for a guy obsessed with family legacy the way he treats Tyrion doesn't really make sense, especially since it's been so long since Jaime joined the Kingsguard and he has clearly renounced his title on more than one occasion. Man still needs an heir, but is irrationally opposed to it being Tyrion.

There is a huge parallel between Tyrion and Jon if they were both raised by men they thought to be their fathers. One does a good job and one doesn't. Also that scene where the two of them are going to the wall is full of nice little puns then, including the fact that both Benjen and Tyrion would be Jon's uncles, one from each side.

Jaime and Tyrion being half brothers who kill the other's father is almost to good to pass up.

There is a pretty good theory that the smell of Tywin's corpse (and why he was on the shitter) was because Oberyn poisoned him.

Tywin is responsible for the deaths of Rheagar's two (or maybe one and a possessed prince) Targaryen children... Having him killed by a Targaryen is poetic justice.

I actually think it makes a lot more sense and makes Tywin a more interesting character... Plus having our 3 heads of the dragon being 3 of our original pov's makes a whole lot of sense. 

[estermonty python]

7 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I'm pretty sure nobody in the books has ever described Rhaegar as stupid.

Or Jahaerys II, or Aegon V, or the Prince of Dragonflies, or Rhaella, or Daenerys, or Baelor Breakspear, or Maekar I, or Maester Aemon.   Prince Daeron and Aerion Brightflame were morons, but you can't paint with such a wide brush when it comes to entire families.  

[Ashes Of Westeros]

I agree with the OP. Tyrion's relationship with his father is complicated and tragic almost to the level of Kafka's son-father conflict. And the irony hier is that tyrion mirrored Tywin more than Cersei or Jaime, they are always on the same track. Tywin wanted to kill Tyrion for killing (unintentionally) the love of his life, Tyrion in his turn killed his father for taking the love of his life away from him.

It would be too superficial to resolve this psychological conflict with Tyrion simply not being Tywin's son, which makes him some kind of Cinderella of Lannister family.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

Or Jahaerys II, or Aegon V, or the Prince of Dragonflies, or Rhaella, or Daenerys, or Baelor Breakspear, or Maekar I, or Maester Aemon.   Prince Daeron and Aerion Brightflame were morons, but you can't paint with such a wide brush when it comes to entire families.  

Classic example of:

"I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

They can go either way, Tywin doesn't have a monopoly on clever

[Ashes Of Westeros]

5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Tywin could have known Tyrion wasn't his son, he even said so...

Tywin said to Jaime "You're not son of mine" too. I don't think it should be taken literally. For me, this is the way Tywin showed that he was unhappy with their children's behavior and symbolically denied them.

[estermonty python]

58 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

If Tyrion turns out to be Aerys' son, all that conflict goes out the window. Tyrion isn't his father writ small, he's just a by-blow of a crazy king so that GRRM can stick him on top of a dragon like everyone apparently wants, for some reason. All the issues Tyrion has with his father are undermined by the fact that Tywion ISN'T Tywin's biological son. And it undercuts why Tyrion is even alive at all. If Tywin had the slightest idea that Tyrion wasn't his, Tyrion would have been put out of the way immediately. Not even killed; Tywin could have sent him to the Wall at any point on the pure basis of being unworthy to hold the honour of being a Lannister. Tyrion isn't getting revenge on his family by aiding the daughter of Tywin's old enemy: he's having a family reunion with his surprise half-sister. One of those situations is much more interesting than the other.

There are plenty of hints that Tywin DOES suspect that Tyrion isn't his - like telling him that he'd never inherit Casterly Rock or telling Tyrion with his dying breath that he is no son of his.  You can read that as simply disowning him, but it could also be read as a deathbed confession.

Tywin would have been too proud to put out or kill Tyrion,as it would dishonor Joanna's memory and make Tywin a cuckold - both of which would besmirch his honor.  As for why he didn't immediately kill Tyrion, 1) he could never be SURE that Tyrion wasn't his, I don't think, and 2) he's still Joanna's son.  It's a little bit of that Snape/Harry Potter dynamic: If he's right, Tyrion is the product of the woman he loved and a man he (at that point) hated, so he raises Tyrion to honor Joanna (and because he would be embarrassed if her infidelity ever got out), but in private treats Tyrion's very existance as a stain upon his honor, which it kind of is.

[estermonty python]

9 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Classic example of:

"I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

They can go either way, Tywin doesn't have a monopoly on clever

Exactly.  

[estermonty python]

10 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I agree with the OP. Tyrion's relationship with his father is complicated and tragic almost to the level of Kafka's son-father conflict. And the irony hier is that tyrion mirrored Tywin more than Cersei or Jaime, they are always on the same track. Tywin wanted to kill Tyrion for killing (unintentionally) the love of his life, Tyrion in his turn killed his father for taking the love of his life away from him.

It would be too superficial to resolve this psychological conflict with Tyrion simply not being Tywin's son, which makes him some kind of Cinderella of Lannister family.

Whether Tyrion is Tywin's biological son or not doesn't resolve that psychological conflict, as at the very least he was Tywin's adopted son and raised by him to be a Lannister.  If and when we find out R+L=J, that won't suddenly make Jon's relationship with Robb any less fraternal, just because it turns out they're cousins, not brothers, or Jon's relationship with Ned any less paternal.  It just adds a layer of complexity.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Tywin said to Jaime "You're not son of mine" too. I don't think it should be taken literally. For me, this is the way Tywin showed that he was unhappy with their children's behavior and symbolically denied them.

Yes but only when Jaime is refusing to inherent Tywins legacy... The most important thing to Tywin. He never seems to have treated Jaime like Tyrion, plus it muddies the water.

I mean ideally we never get a straight answer, I mean how would we really know whose dad is Tyrions...

but if he rides a dragon I know what I'll believe...

Of course he already dreams of dragons... Which we learn well before we ever meet Tywin, so I guess I already do believe it.

 

[Canon Claude]

8 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

Tywin would have been too proud to put out or kill Tyrion,as it would dishonor Joanna's memory and make Tywin a cuckold - both of which would besmirch his honor.  As for why he didn't immediately kill Tyrion, 1) he could never be SURE that Tyrion wasn't his, I don't think, and 2) he's still Joanna's son.  It's a little bit of that Snape/Harry Potter dynamic: If he's right, Tyrion is the product of the woman he loved and a man he (at that point) hated, so he raises Tyrion to honor Joanna (and because he would be embarrassed if her infidelity ever got out), but in private treats Tyrion's very existance as a stain upon his honor, which it kind of is.

If Tywin wanted to "honour Joanna", why treat her son like a stubborn turd that he accidentally stepped on and can't scrub off the bottom of his shoe?

If this theory is true, then at best, Tywin is an even bigger hypocrite than he already was, and at worst, he's an inconsistent character. Tywin has shown himself to be very willing to do terrible things to Tyrion which scar him for life. Would Joana approve of this? Would she thank Tywin for treating her child that way? Honestly, I would choose death or the Wall over having the woman I loved raped by my father's guards while I'm forced to watch.

If Tywin has even the slightest notion that something is going to challenge him or his legacy, he stamps it out whenever he can get away with it. He orders the entire Tarbeck and Reyne lines extinguished, even the children. He orders Elia and her kids massacred in revenge for the slight against him and his daughter (but also figuring out a way to pass it off as clever strategy). Tywin even turns against Tyrion when he has the chance to finally get rid of him, whether it's execution or the Wall. If he had a notion that Tyrion wasn't his, then Joanna would have been reunited with her child immediately.

[devilish]

18 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I'm pretty sure nobody in the books has ever described Rhaegar as stupid.

He's hardly the brightest of them all though

a- Out of all ladies in Winterfell he went to steal someone whose emotionally attached to two Lord Paramount. Her brother was also going to marry the daughter of a third Lord Paramount. Surely, no one would have bothered if Rhaegar ran off with the miller's daughter in a bid of fullfilling his crazy prophecy. 

b- He didn't anticipated the fact that one of these gentlemen will raise a complaint to the king and that his mad father will probably take it wrongly

c- He didn't thought that prophecies tend to be wrong all the time and you must be a bit cuckoo to believe them

d- Despite having an enormous army he was still taken off guard by Robert. He stupidly fought in duel against this furious giant despite not being particularly brilliant with the sword. How more stupid can you be?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Just now, Canon Claude said:

If Tywin wanted to "honour Joanna", why treat her son like a stubborn turd that he accidentally stepped on and can't scrub off the bottom of his shoe?

If this theory is true, then at best, Tywin is an even bigger hypocrite than he already was, and at worst, he's an inconsistent character. Tywin has shown himself to be very willing to do terrible things to Tyrion which scar him for life. Would Joana approve of this? Would she thank Tywin for treating her child that way? Honestly, I would choose death or the Wall over having the woman I loved raped by my father's guards while I'm forced to watch.

Because Tywin and Ned are foils and run a very similar path very differently... Both care greatly about family "honor" but mean very different things... Both had best friends who were kings, both fealt mistreated by said kings and had to deal with said kings bastard descendants... Both had a woman they loved die in childbirth bringing a "dragonspawn" into the world. Both likely swore to protect said child, but we're very different father figures. 

The list goes on... 

[Free Northman Reborn]

The irony that is lost by Tyrion not being Tywin's son, is replaced by the irony that the son who most resembles Tywin, is in fact the offspring of the man whom he hated. Put differently, the bastard fathered by Aerys with Joanna, turned out to resemble Tywin more than any of Tywin's true offspring.

Plenty of irony and impact in that little plot twist.

[Canon Claude]

11 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Because Tywin and Ned are foils and run a very similar path very differently... Both care greatly about family "honor" but mean very different things... Both had best friends who were kings, both fealt mistreated by said kings and had to deal with said kings bastard descendants... Both had a woman they loved die in childbirth bringing a "dragonspawn" into the world. Both likely swore to protect said child, but we're very different father figures. 

The list goes on... 

Except Ned took in Jon for love of his sister, and because he dare not be responsible for another dead child. Tywin kept Tyrion alive not because he wanted to save a child who had Joana's blood. He did it because Tyrion is of HIS blood. Tywin might love Joana in private but he's an egoist above all else. He won't put his own son to death because Tyrion might have a role to play in furthering the family. Ned didn't care about what Jon could do for the Stark family- he was perfectly happy to let Jon take the black. Tywin jumped at the chance to either send Tyrion away in chains or have him executed as a kin-and-kingslayer.

That's why Jon being a Targaryen doesn't undercut his relationship with Ned in the same way that having Tyrion being a Targaryen ruins his relationship with Tywin. Re-reading the books, Jon not being Ned's bastard son is in keeping with Ned sacrificing his own reputation if it means doing the right thing. Re-reading the books after the reveal of Tyrion being a Targ, all of Tyrion and Tywin's arguments lose their power because we the audience know that it's based on a false premise which Tyrion only needs to discover for himself so he can wash his hands of Tywin's hate and go rejoin his real family. It turns him into a strange version of Disney's take on Quasimodo (all of Frollo's lessons are voided by the reveal to Quasimodo that his mom DIDN'T abandon him).

[devilish]

Is there was the slightest chance that Tyrion was Aerys bastard then Tywin would have known. The old lion had KL under his thumb and he knew that Aerys was salivating at his wife. He wouldn't trust him at all. 

If Aerys did manage to rape Joanna then rest assured that Tyrion would vanish or at least be sent as far from CR as possible. Tyrion was an embarrassment to Tywin and his mere presence reminded him of Joanna's death. Stop thinking of Tywin as some sort of Ned 2. The guy screwed prostitutes. That's hardly a show of affection towards his death wife. 

 Not to forget that he would probably join Robert's rebellion from day 1 as it will be inconceivable for Tywin of losing such golden opportunity to settle that debt once and for all. 

[LynnS]

I have the strange notion that Tyrion is Tywin's son because of his Aunt's confrontation with Tywin over the matter.  She insists that he is Tyrion's father and Tywin was so ticked off he wouldn't speak to her for months.  I suspect that Tywin has produced other dwarf children (something his sister's know about) and sees this as evidence of his 'weakness' as a man; a reason that he despises dwarves in general and disowns Tyrion in practice.

I think on some level, he knows that Jaime and Cersei are not his; but they are beautiful and he can claim them as his offspring and salvage his reputation as a sire of beautiful children.