LordMiddleFinger

Stannis and the Battle of Winterfell

44 posts in this topic

Hi. I was hoping we could discuss what happened in Season 5 episode 10 "Mother's Mercy". 

 Specifically the battle of Winterfell.  So we were told that Stannis had an army of 6,500 soldiers. We know from season 4 that he had 4,000 Baratheon men after the Battle of Blackwater, he then got a loan from the Iron Bank and hired a bunch of Sellswords. He smashed Mance Rayder's army at the wall so it's only logical to assume that he had more men before this battle since there is no way that he didn't suffer losses during his battle with the Wildlings ( minimal losses most likely ). So anyway, in episode 7 of season 5 we find out that The Stormcrows have deserted. Stannis himself says "500 men". In the next episode when we see The Boltons, Roose is being informed about Stannis' army. One of his men tells him "Our scouts tell us that he's got no more than 6,000 men. More than half of those are mounted however." From that we know that Stannis had 6,000 men. Probably 4,000 Baratheon men and 2,000 Sellswords. After the events in episode 9 "A Dance of BULLSHIT" we find out that nearly half the men have deserted. "All the Sellswords with ALL the horses.". This still puts Stannis' remaining army at around 3,000 men, Baratheon men. I would like to know why you guys think that despite the fact that Stannis ( the greatest military commander in Westeros ) had 3,000 men that were still loyal to him, despite the fact that the Boltons had around 5,000 men, they made it look as though Stannis and his army were unable to do shit against the Boltons. 
 The Boltons season 5 before the Battle of Winterfell: 5,000 men.
 The Boltons season 6 after the Battle of Winterfell: 5,000 men. 

 How is it possible that 3,000 battle hardened soldiers, led by the greatest military commander in Westeros, were unable to severely weaken the Bolton forces? Sure they had no horses and were not used to the harsh climate of the North BUT still this was a "do or die" type of situation. Logic dictates that even though they probably knew they were going to lose, they would still fight as hard as possible to try and survive or at least take some Bolton scum down with them. Yet in season 6 the Boltons STILL have 5,000 men! Before "The Battle of the bastards" the fake "Smalljon Umber" joins Ramsay and the Karstark asshole brings his men as well so Ramsay had 6,000 men in that battle. This doesn't make any sense whatsoever! 5,000 Bolton men before the battle against Stannis... 5,000 Bolton men AFTER the battle against Stannis and his 3,000 men. 

 Sure it's probably just very bad writing but let's pretend that's not the real reason for this BS. Is the tv version of Stannis so freaking incompetent and his men so freaking bad at fighting that they were only able to kill 2 Bolton soldiers ( the ones that Stannis killed just before Brienne the Kingslayer killed The One True King ). Sorry for the long post/rant.

Edited by LordMiddleFinger
spelling error

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Oh you sweet summer flower when it comes to Stannis and the show "logic", "flowing narrative", and "natural plot progression" don't exist

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After Shireen's murder I wouldn't expect any more logic in Stannis' plot.

My take was that he had only a few soldiers (probably less than 3000) and that they lied to him so as not to upset him (they were afraid of him after what he did to Shireen, and to be fair I don't know why not all his army left him). As for the Bolton's there's no logic, the only assumption is that they are invincible because they had to survive in order to fight in the Battle of the Bastards 9 episodes after. The only battle that deserved to have the more soldiers the better because it was very expensive and Jon Snow was in it (so I can't find logic in the Bolton's).

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't believe army sizes were mentioned in season 5. We're told that Stannis's army is larger than the Boltons at the very start, but he loses more than half along the way to Winterfell, and we don't hear the exact numbers. We only hear that the Bolton, Karstark, and Umber army make up approximately 6,000 in season 6, and which house contributed how many is left up to interpretation. Besides, the fact that Stannis didn't have a single mounted knight, whereas the Bolton's army was completely comprised of them, would have left Stannis at a complete disadvantage. Ramsay's army would have mowed right over them.

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They wanted Ramsay to be akin to Alexander The Great so we could 1 threaten more rape on Sansa and 2 have " The Battle Of The Bastards". Stannis was a casualty of creative satisfaction rather than Bolton military superiority.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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Weren't Stannis' men dying of cold and hunger?  We don't know how many were lost before the Shireen BBQ.

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Battle hardened? More like battle weary. The elements don't care if you are the greatest military commander of your time or not. Just ask Napoleon and Von Manstein.

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They were fixated on Ramsay vs, Jon for whatever reason so they used the S5 Stannis story as a filler stall until jon got stabbed and left the watch

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17 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't believe army sizes were mentioned in season 5. We're told that Stannis's army is larger than the Boltons at the very start, but he loses more than half along the way to Winterfell, and we don't hear the exact numbers. We only hear that the Bolton, Karstark, and Umber army make up approximately 6,000 in season 6, and which house contributed how many is left up to interpretation. Besides, the fact that Stannis didn't have a single mounted knight, whereas the Bolton's army was completely comprised of them, would have left Stannis at a complete disadvantage. Ramsay's army would have mowed right over them.

 Season 5 episode 7  "The Gift". Stannis to Davos: "What else?". Davos: "The Stormcrows, rode off last night". Stannis: "500 men, Sellswords, loyal to nothing but gold."

Season 5 episode 8 "Hardhome". Bolton soldier/general to Roose Bolton: "Our scouts tell us he's got no more than 6,000 men. More than half of those are mounted however."

 So we do know that he had 6,500 men after the battle against the Wildlings. He had 6,000 men after the Stormcrows deserted. I am not making this up pal, go watch the episodes i mentioned in this reply and you'll see I'm right.

"Besides, the fact that Stannis didn't have a single mounted knight, whereas the Bolton's army was completely comprised of them, would have left Stannis at a complete disadvantage. Ramsay's army would have mowed right over them."

 Stannis was the greatest military commander in Westeros. The 3,000 men he had left in his army were all Baratheon men. Loyal and battle hardened. Most of these men probably fought in the Greyjoy Rebellion. These were real soldiers, soldiers with experience. Stannis should've been able to come up with a strategy on how to use them in the most effective way possible and since these were disciplined and experienced soldiers the results should've been very positive for them. You can't tell me that 2,000 Wildlings were more effective than 3,000 Baratheon soldiers. Just doesn't make sense to me.

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9 hours ago, Samantha Stark said:

Battle hardened? More like battle weary. The elements don't care if you are the greatest military commander of your time or not. Just ask Napoleon and Von Manstein.

Battle Hardened: Soldiers toughened by the experience of battle. 

 "The elements don't care if you are the greatest military commander of your time or not. Just ask Napoleon and Von Manstein."

Alexander The Great would like a word with you about that. Also... The Battle of Agincourt. Look it up.

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14 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Weren't Stannis' men dying of cold and hunger?  We don't know how many were lost before the Shireen BBQ.

 Not once was it mentioned that a single Baratheon soldier died of cold or because of hunger ( in the show ). They said that the horses were dying though...

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For starters, look no further than the battle between Stannis's men vs the Wildlings. Even Tormund commented on how they wildlings did not stand a chance against a mounted force "They rode through us like butter". Second, like it or not, Stannis's battle was used as as plot fodder to make it appears Ramsay's forces were superior, so that Jon's victory would be perceived as almost impossible. 

Lastly, Stannis was expecting a siege, he was taken off guard when Ramsay's forces were outside the castle walls and charged him. 

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7 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

For starters, look no further than the battle between Stannis's men vs the Wildlings. Even Tormund commented on how they wildlings did not stand a chance against a mounted force "They rode through us like butter". Second, like it or not, Stannis's battle was used as as plot fodder to make it appears Ramsay's forces were superior, so that Jon's victory would be perceived as almost impossible. 

Lastly, Stannis was expecting a siege, he was taken off guard when Ramsay's forces were outside the castle walls and charged him. 

 You are forgetting that the Wildlings are not nearly as disciplined and organized as the Baratheon Army.They also have no experience when it comes to fighting real soldiers that are organized and experienced. I am fully aware that D&D despise Stannis and wanted to get rid of him... logic be damned. But what makes zero sense is the fact that the wildlings did better against 6,000 men than Stannis and his 3,000 Baratheon soldiers did against 5,000 Bolton men.

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Wildlings had much more men, and I am not sure where you get the idea either did better than the other. 

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Stannis lacked the technology that Cersei and "Q" will have at their disposal this year....... A cloning device that clones everything including; uniforms, weapons and horses apparently. There are rumors that the Iron Born under Euron also have something similar that can duplicate/mass produce lots of ships.

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7 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Stannis lacked the technology that Cersei and "Q" will have at their disposal this year....... A cloning device that clones everything including; uniforms, weapons and horses apparently. There are rumors that the Iron Born under Euron also have something similar that can duplicate/mass produce lots of ships.

B)

this is hilarious.

I really hope the cloning machine doesn't exist, we already have the teleportation one. Sounds too sci-fi for a medieval fantasy show.

I agree with the above, as I said, thr numbers don't make sense. Hiwever, I remember that rewatching s5 I noticed Stannis wanted a siege and didn't expect the Bolton forces to come. It doesn't explain the numbers, but it's something to take into account.

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21 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

B)

this is hilarious.

I really hope the cloning machine doesn't exist, we already have the teleportation one. Sounds too sci-fi for a medieval fantasy show.

I agree with the above, as I said, thr numbers don't make sense. Hiwever, I remember that rewatching s5 I noticed Stannis wanted a siege and didn't expect the Bolton forces to come. It doesn't explain the numbers, but it's something to take into account.

Yes, but the run of the mill AGOT diehard lovers would eat it up if it were true, would it not? Especially if LF can acquire more brothels and clone Ros to bring her back for their viewing pleasure.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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Why are you expecting logic from the show? If you want logic, keep to the books. GRRM will tell you (maybe) how half of the Bolton army will betray the other half. And how the unexpected will come to be.

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5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Why are you expecting logic from the show? If you want logic, keep to the books. GRRM will tell you (maybe) how half of the Bolton army will betray the other half. And how the unexpected will come to be.

Ahhh, we expect no logic from this show, and yes GRRM, if he can muster the fortitude to finish, will give us the story with logic to make it so, until then, we are in the the world of Weiseroff (Weis/Benioff) and not Westeros.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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On 2/2/2017 at 3:55 AM, A Ghost of Someone said:

Stannis lacked the technology that Cersei and "Q" will have at their disposal this year....... A cloning device that clones everything including; uniforms, weapons and horses apparently. There are rumors that the Iron Born under Euron also have something similar that can duplicate/mass produce lots of ships.

 LMFAO! This made my day. BTW i think that Dany "Der Fuhrer" got this technology from Varys in season 6. Her army of 100,000 is sailing towards Westeros on 100-200 ships. 200 ships can carry maybe 30,000 at best! They probably used the Ironborn tech to make more ships... Euron should sue! 

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