Why didn't Tywin let Tyrion tour the Free Cities?

[Lucius Lovejoy]

We only hear of how awful Tywin is to Tyrion through Tyrion's POVs.  While Tywin was cold and unloving, I actually think he wasn't that bad or hateful of a father.  Tyrion has no perspective whatsoever on how lucky is he to be a well educated, well fed, rich son of a lord compared to 90%+ of Westeros because Tyrion only thinks about his dwarfism.  When Tywin names Tyrion acting Hand, and when Tywin gives him Sansa (and essentially the future Lordship of Winterfell) and recognizes him for his work on the Blackwater, he is neither hateful nor unfair.  It is said that Tywin was always generous with his gold - he gave Tyrion as much as he wanted.  The Tysha incident is cruel, but then again Tywin could have done worse and has a reputation for teaching lessons.  Had Tywin caught Jaime and Cersei together who knows what cruelty he would have done (this is alluded to when they got caught in their early teens - they are told how lucky they are their father doesn't find out).  And who knows how reliable Tyrion's narration of this event with Tysha really is - I recall Dany romanticizing about her first night with Drogo in ADWD in a way that did not at all resemble her POV chapter from AGOT, so Tyrion's memory over the last 16 years is likely more what he wants to believe and less what happened.  Tysha may not have been a whore paid for by Jaime to make a man out of Tyrion, but she may have been an opportunist looking to swindle Tyrion and do who knows what else.  Tyrion clearly didn't understand Shae's motives or nature, why should we expect that he had it right about Tysha?  As for Tywin's disgust at the shame of Tyrion's whoring, well, it's probably amplified because he is ashamed of his own weakness there (but at least he is super discreet).  I'd also be ashamed of Tyrion's whoring, drunkenness, constant bitching and moaning about his dwarfism, ill-manneredness, and lack of tact.  It is unbecoming.  I think the answer to the OP is as simple as the answer Tywin gave Tyrion - Tyrion could not be trusted not to shame his family and marry a whore.  This is all before Tyrion got into playing the game of thrones anyways - before he got slightly more serious.  And I really do believe the only knowledge Tywin has of Tysha's whereabouts are that she is wherever whores go.

Whewww... deep breath... that felt good to finally get off of my chest.

[Orphalesion]

15 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

 Tyrion could not be trusted not to shame his family and marry a whore. 

Exactly Tyrion as we meet him in the books is already very naive and has an incredible need and want to be loved as well as a tendency for excess, let's try to imagine what young Tyrion was like. No matter what kind of father Tywin was otherwise (and I don't think he was a good one to either of his children) I do think he was motivated by a knowledge that allowing Tyrion to gallivant around the Free Cities, which are VERY exotic and excessive by Westeros' Standard, would lead to disaster.

How long till would it have taken Tyrion to lose everything he had, including the means to get home to a lady in Lys with purple eyes and an easy smile?    

[Raisin' Bran]

27 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

...And who knows how reliable Tyrion's narration of this event with Tysha really is - I recall Dany romanticizing about her first night with Drogo in ADWD in a way that did not at all resemble her POV chapter from AGOT, so Tyrion's memory over the last 16 years is likely more what he wants to believe and less what happened. 

How do you interpret Dany's wedding night with Drogo? I am not saying that she did not romanticize it some in here POV in ADwD, I am just wanting to know what you think her state of mind was that first night.

[Tralalala]

42 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

We only hear of how awful Tywin is to Tyrion through Tyrion's POVs.  While Tywin was cold and unloving, I actually think he wasn't that bad or hateful of a father.  Tyrion has no perspective whatsoever on how lucky is he to be a well educated, well fed, rich son of a lord compared to 90%+ of Westeros because Tyrion only thinks about his dwarfism.  When Tywin names Tyrion acting Hand, and when Tywin gives him Sansa (and essentially the future Lordship of Winterfell) and recognizes him for his work on the Blackwater, he is neither hateful nor unfair.  It is said that Tywin was always generous with his gold - he gave Tyrion as much as he wanted.  The Tysha incident is cruel, but then again Tywin could have done worse and has a reputation for teaching lessons.  Had Tywin caught Jaime and Cersei together who knows what cruelty he would have done (this is alluded to when they got caught in their early teens - they are told how lucky they are their father doesn't find out).  And who knows how reliable Tyrion's narration of this event with Tysha really is - I recall Dany romanticizing about her first night with Drogo in ADWD in a way that did not at all resemble her POV chapter from AGOT, so Tyrion's memory over the last 16 years is likely more what he wants to believe and less what happened.  Tysha may not have been a whore paid for by Jaime to make a man out of Tyrion, but she may have been an opportunist looking to swindle Tyrion and do who knows what else.  Tyrion clearly didn't understand Shae's motives or nature, why should we expect that he had it right about Tysha?  As for Tywin's disgust at the shame of Tyrion's whoring, well, it's probably amplified because he is ashamed of his own weakness there (but at least he is super discreet).  I'd also be ashamed of Tyrion's whoring, drunkenness, constant bitching and moaning about his dwarfism, ill-manneredness, and lack of tact.  It is unbecoming.  I think the answer to the OP is as simple as the answer Tywin gave Tyrion - Tyrion could not be trusted not to shame his family and marry a whore.  This is all before Tyrion got into playing the game of thrones anyways - before he got slightly more serious.  And I really do believe the only knowledge Tywin has of Tysha's whereabouts are that she is wherever whores go.

Whewww... deep breath... that felt good to finally get off of my chest.

You must be my twin,those are mine thoughts on the matter better said then i could say them

So basically what i wanted to say and what he wrote.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

@Raisin' Bran heightened to almost overwhelming anxiety, mixed with some fear.  Even if you disagree with the particular example, the point is that it is highly plausible/likely that Tyrion is remembering the Tysha incident differently than it actually happened.  Such emotionally charged events are rarely recalled exactly as they occurred.  People tend to exaggerate the things they most regret, the things that hurt them the most, the things they most enjoyed, etc.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

Cheers @Tralalala - I hope you aren't friends with too many show-only people who think Tyrion really is a saint!  I have mixed feelings about the character, he is enjoyable to read up until ADWD for me at least, but I don't often agree with his take on things.

[Lord Wraith]

7 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

We only hear of how awful Tywin is to Tyrion through Tyrion's POVs.  While Tywin was cold and unloving, I actually think he wasn't that bad or hateful of a father.  Tyrion has no perspective whatsoever on how lucky is he to be a well educated, well fed, rich son of a lord compared to 90%+ of Westeros because Tyrion only thinks about his dwarfism.  When Tywin names Tyrion acting Hand, and when Tywin gives him Sansa (and essentially the future Lordship of Winterfell) and recognizes him for his work on the Blackwater, he is neither hateful nor unfair.  It is said that Tywin was always generous with his gold - he gave Tyrion as much as he wanted.  The Tysha incident is cruel, but then again Tywin could have done worse and has a reputation for teaching lessons.  Had Tywin caught Jaime and Cersei together who knows what cruelty he would have done (this is alluded to when they got caught in their early teens - they are told how lucky they are their father doesn't find out).  And who knows how reliable Tyrion's narration of this event with Tysha really is - I recall Dany romanticizing about her first night with Drogo in ADWD in a way that did not at all resemble her POV chapter from AGOT, so Tyrion's memory over the last 16 years is likely more what he wants to believe and less what happened.  Tysha may not have been a whore paid for by Jaime to make a man out of Tyrion, but she may have been an opportunist looking to swindle Tyrion and do who knows what else.  Tyrion clearly didn't understand Shae's motives or nature, why should we expect that he had it right about Tysha?  As for Tywin's disgust at the shame of Tyrion's whoring, well, it's probably amplified because he is ashamed of his own weakness there (but at least he is super discreet).  I'd also be ashamed of Tyrion's whoring, drunkenness, constant bitching and moaning about his dwarfism, ill-manneredness, and lack of tact.  It is unbecoming.  I think the answer to the OP is as simple as the answer Tywin gave Tyrion - Tyrion could not be trusted not to shame his family and marry a whore.  This is all before Tyrion got into playing the game of thrones anyways - before he got slightly more serious.  And I really do believe the only knowledge Tywin has of Tysha's whereabouts are that she is wherever whores go.

Whewww... deep breath... that felt good to finally get off of my chest.

 

6 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Exactly Tyrion as we meet him in the books is already very naive and has an incredible need and want to be loved as well as a tendency for excess, let's try to imagine what young Tyrion was like. No matter what kind of father Tywin was otherwise (and I don't think he was a good one to either of his children) I do think he was motivated by a knowledge that allowing Tyrion to gallivant around the Free Cities, which are VERY exotic and excessive by Westeros' Standard, would lead to disaster.

How long till would it have taken Tyrion to lose everything he had, including the means to get home to a lady in Lys with purple eyes and an easy smile?    

[Renly's Banana]

I think Tyrion's perspective of his father is definitely skewed and somewhat biased -- though this is not unwarranted; Tywin has fully earned the distrust and dislike his children have for him. A very good example of this happens at the start of ASoS, when Tyrion wakes up from his fever dreams and basically spends his first one of two chapters brooding over his father not having visited him. He even confronts Tywin about it only to learn that.. yeah, Tywin did visit him, he just wasn't conscious for it. Tyrion has an inferiority complex and likes to play the victim (again, some of this is well earned after a lifetime of dealing with Tywin.)

But I really don't think Tywin hates Tyrion. He doesn't love him either. In fact I'd go as far as to say Tywin does not truly love any of his children, he merely sees them as extensions of himself and his pride. He likes them when they are completely following his commands and wishes, but the moment they step out of line, he's quick to shun them or berate them; he told his supposed favorite and golden son that he was "no son of his" at one point. None of them shed a tear for Tywin after he dies. They don't even seem to feel any pity or longing. The most that Cersei and Jaime mourn for is his counsel and experience, never his affection or any sort of fond memory. 

[UnFit Finlay]

On 31/03/2017 at 4:49 AM, Lord Wraith said:

1) Mayhaps Tysha is in Free Cities.

2) Tyrion lacks self control and would do something to embarass House Lannister.

Tywin's views not my mine.

I don't think Tysha is the issue mainly because I doubt Tywin actually realised that Tyrion was in love with her. I do however agree that Tywin was worried that Tyrion would end up embarrassing him.

And he probably would. Let's face it, Tyrion was never going to be able to get a highborn lady (at least not with their consent) and Tywin would be embarrassed by anything less.

10 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

We only hear of how awful Tywin is to Tyrion through Tyrion's POVs.  While Tywin was cold and unloving, I actually think he wasn't that bad or hateful of a father.  Tyrion has no perspective whatsoever on how lucky is he to be a well educated, well fed, rich son of a lord compared to 90%+ of Westeros because Tyrion only thinks about his dwarfism.  When Tywin names Tyrion acting Hand, and when Tywin gives him Sansa (and essentially the future Lordship of Winterfell) and recognizes him for his work on the Blackwater, he is neither hateful nor unfair.  It is said that Tywin was always generous with his gold - he gave Tyrion as much as he wanted.  The Tysha incident is cruel, but then again Tywin could have done worse and has a reputation for teaching lessons.  Had Tywin caught Jaime and Cersei together who knows what cruelty he would have done (this is alluded to when they got caught in their early teens - they are told how lucky they are their father doesn't find out).  And who knows how reliable Tyrion's narration of this event with Tysha really is - I recall Dany romanticizing about her first night with Drogo in ADWD in a way that did not at all resemble her POV chapter from AGOT, so Tyrion's memory over the last 16 years is likely more what he wants to believe and less what happened.  Tysha may not have been a whore paid for by Jaime to make a man out of Tyrion, but she may have been an opportunist looking to swindle Tyrion and do who knows what else.  Tyrion clearly didn't understand Shae's motives or nature, why should we expect that he had it right about Tysha?  As for Tywin's disgust at the shame of Tyrion's whoring, well, it's probably amplified because he is ashamed of his own weakness there (but at least he is super discreet).  I'd also be ashamed of Tyrion's whoring, drunkenness, constant bitching and moaning about his dwarfism, ill-manneredness, and lack of tact.  It is unbecoming.  I think the answer to the OP is as simple as the answer Tywin gave Tyrion - Tyrion could not be trusted not to shame his family and marry a whore.  This is all before Tyrion got into playing the game of thrones anyways - before he got slightly more serious.  And I really do believe the only knowledge Tywin has of Tysha's whereabouts are that she is wherever whores go.

Whewww... deep breath... that felt good to finally get off of my chest.

There's a couple of things in there but the bits in bold really stood out to me.

(1) I can't think of many things worse than convincing someone that the only love they've ever experienced was a lie and then to force them to take part in a gang rape of that person. Frankly, it would've been less cruel to just flay him.

(2) Tyrion's whoring and drunkenness was directly caused by how Tywin handled the Tysha incident. Tyrion was led to believe that Tysha's love for him was not only a lie but one that could be bought. He's spent the rest of his life trying to recapture that feeling, and believed that it's the closest he'd ever get to love. I mean, he never whored before his marriage and, yet, it quickly became his defining characteristic.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On March 29, 2017 at 9:06 AM, Castellan said:

That's it. The son he wants to keep at home, in the sewers.

Yes but if someone is foolish enough to say something in tywin's own domain then he could just chop their head off. I'll say it's bc he didn't want some foreigners laughing at his house. You don't laugh at Lord Tywin all it really is

[Castellan]

2 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Yes but if someone is foolish enough to say something in tywin's own domain then he could just chop their head off. I'll say it's bc he didn't want some foreigners laughing at his house. You don't laugh at Lord Tywin all it really is

True. He has a psychological obsession about that stemming from the way his father was treated.

Also, he'd have no control over Tyrion when he was out of Westeros, as well as no control over foreigners. If he heard Tyrion was acting even worse than usual in Westeros he could just go and nab him or cut off his funds. By the time he heard about scandal in Essos it would be too late to nip it in the bud.

And Lucius Lovejoy, I think Tywin could have been an even worse parent, he is withholding all affection from Tyrion partly because he will only respect Tyrion if Tyrion demands it. He despises those who crave approval. He would be impressed if Tyrion just rejected him and set about gaining power on his own. Unfortunately Tyrion went a tad too far when he finally saw the light....

[Lucius Lovejoy]

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 3:44 AM, UnFit Finlay said:

There's a couple of things in there but the bits in bold really stood out to me.

(1) I can't think of many things worse than convincing someone that the only love they've ever experienced was a lie and then to force them to take part in a gang rape of that person. Frankly, it would've been less cruel to just flay him.

(2) Tyrion's whoring and drunkenness was directly caused by how Tywin handled the Tysha incident. Tyrion was led to believe that Tysha's love for him was not only a lie but one that could be bought. He's spent the rest of his life trying to recapture that feeling, and believed that it's the closest he'd ever get to love. I mean, he never whored before his marriage and, yet, it quickly became his defining characteristic.

You make a strong argument which I'll be better able to respond to once I go back and look at the text.  I am not convinced that the way it was described by Tyrion, though he definitely uses the word rape, was as simple as some sweet, innocent, confused girl being brought before Tywin and Tyrion, having her clothes ripped off, and then forced to suffer countless men raping her, though I definitely would not put that past Tywin.  I have a hard time believing that is how it went down given that Tyrion admits his cock betrayed him and he took her as well.  I've always imagined that Tywin told Tysha that she could take the men and the coin, or an annulment, public disgrace, and no coin at all, and she chose the men and the coin.  Maybe not that exactly, but something other than sweet, honest, innocent girl gets pulled away for a train raping amidst tears and confusion.  It still also is odd that she would start drinking and getting physical with Tyrion right after allegedly being almost raped.  I'd be willing to believe it was a set-up by her and someone else to get Jaime/Tyrion's attention and perhaps sucker them for some coin.  I'm not saying that it is so, however - I have to re-read the text.

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 5:50 AM, Castellan said:

And Lucius Lovejoy, I think Tywin could have been an even worse parent, he is withholding all affection from Tyrion partly because he will only respect Tyrion if Tyrion demands it. He despises those who crave approval. He would be impressed if Tyrion just rejected him and set about gaining power on his own. Unfortunately Tyrion went a tad too far when he finally saw the light....

Nice insight, I hadn't thought about it that way.  Then again, Jaime rejects Tywin by keeping the white cloak and it doesn't make Tywin any happier.  Yeah I'd be pretty unhappy if I was teaching a lifelong lesson on independence and the minute the student finally got it they decided to loose an arrow on me.

[Tralalala]

On 1.04.2017 г. at 10:44 AM, UnFit Finlay said:

(1) I can't think of many things worse than convincing someone that the only love they've ever experienced was a lie and then to force them to take part in a gang rape of that person. Frankly, it would've been less cruel to just flay him.

(2) Tyrion's whoring and drunkenness was directly caused by how Tywin handled the Tysha incident. Tyrion was led to believe that Tysha's love for him was not only a lie but one that could be bought. He's spent the rest of his life trying to recapture that feeling, and believed that it's the closest he'd ever get to love. I mean, he never whored before his marriage and, yet, it quickly became his defining characteristic.

1:) I call bullshit by factor of 9,it's a lot more easy/harmless to watch someone else's suffering than to suffer yourself.

2:) We don't know if that is not the case,having only Tyrion's pov which is not very accurate,he was 12-13 at the time and he could've started whoring just as much later on.

And Tywin could've done a lot more worse than what he did,what he did while tragic for the girl was a simple lesson for Tyrion,its his problem he couldn't get passed it for years and years and yes i get its traumatic for a child to witness that,but Tyrion isn't the first child to witness something like that and won't be the last,as others can get pass it Tyrion should've done so as well.  What is Tyrion so angry about it anyways? Is it the lie that she was a whore(could've been one for all we know),is it about her punishment, or is Tyrion guilty for participating in it more than gladly at the time,with being told recently she has lied to him and believing it, with the guilt coming later on?

Anyhow,what so important about Tysha or whatever her name living? What could she bring to the story,when/or if Tyrion finds her? Or are they going to have this talk:

Hi Tysha,it's me Tyrion you remember me? We got married as kids,but my dad didn't like you so he had you raped,but he paid you so i guess we're fine? Btw i still love you,love me back please? Pretty please?

Even if she has a child,asuming she's alive or capable of having children and was not fed moon tea by Tywin,it could easily not be Tyrion's and could be one of the guards or from before Tyrion met her as a child she could've been pregnant already.

[UnFit Finlay]

7 hours ago, Tralalala said:

1:) I call bullshit by factor of 9,it's a lot more easy/harmless to watch someone else's suffering than to suffer yourself.

I call bullshit on your bullshit.

Tywin convinced Tyrion that his love was a lie, that Tysha was simply a whore scheming to take advantage of him and that no one could ever truly love him. He not only *gave* her to his guardsmen, he forced Tyrion to take part, so that *she* would believe that Tyrion never truly loved her.

Just because it was *easier* than what Tysha went through doesn't make it harmless. It's still abuse on a massive massive scale.
 

Quote

 

2:) We don't know if that is not the case,having only Tyrion's pov which is not very accurate,he was 12-13 at the time and he could've started whoring just as much later on.

 

Actually we DO know that Tyrion had never been with a whore, or any woman, before he met Tysha because the lie that Jaime had set it up was based on that fact.

He might well have started whoring if it hadn't happened but we'll never know. We do know, from his own thoughts about Shae, that he believes that paying whores to pretend to love him is the best he'll ever get.

Quote

 

And Tywin could've done a lot more worse than what he did,what he did while tragic for the girl was a simple lesson for Tyrion,its his problem he couldn't get passed it for years and years and yes i get its traumatic for a child to witness that,but Tyrion isn't the first child to witness something like that and won't be the last,as others can get pass it Tyrion should've done so as well.  What is Tyrion so angry about it anyways? Is it the lie that she was a whore(could've been one for all we know),is it about her punishment, or is Tyrion guilty for participating in it more than gladly at the time,with being told recently she has lied to him and believing it, with the guilt coming later on?

 

I've seen a lot of misogyny on this forum but this is pretty special.

Can you seriously not understand why Tyrion might be a bit miffed at being tricked into participating in what he would later discover was a gang rape? Of the woman he loved no less?

The lie would've been traumatic. The truth is devastating.  It's absolutely not just a "simple lesson". If it was, why would it be the one thing that Jaime Lannister feels guilty about?

Quote

 

Anyhow,what so important about Tysha or whatever her name living? What could she bring to the story,when/or if Tyrion finds her? Or are they going to have this talk:

Hi Tysha,it's me Tyrion you remember me? We got married as kids,but my dad didn't like you so he had you raped,but he paid you so i guess we're fine? Btw i still love you,love me back please? Pretty please?

Even if she has a child,asuming she's alive or capable of having children and was not fed moon tea by Tywin,it could easily not be Tyrion's and could be one of the guards or from before Tyrion met her as a child she could've been pregnant already.

 

Okay. What exactly is the point in pretending that you don't know what her name is? You clearly do. You wrote it.

As for what her being alive would bring to the story? Closure mainly. I doubt Tyrion will ever get a truly happy ending but his marriage to Tysha was the defining event in his life and his story will feel unfinished if he never finds out what happened to her.

 

[Tralalala]

2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

I call bullshit on your bullshit.

Tywin convinced Tyrion that his love was a lie, that Tysha was simply a whore scheming to take advantage of him and that no one could ever truly love him. He not only *gave* her to his guardsmen, he forced Tyrion to take part, so that *she* would believe that Tyrion never truly loved her.

Just because it was *easier* than what Tysha went through doesn't make it harmless. It's still abuse on a massive massive scale

So you compare emotional abuse to physical? As i said we don't know she wasn't a whore,Tywin may have known something else about her which Jaime and Tyrion didn't,and so so? Tyrion gets disillusioned about love and you cry about it as if it's the most important thing in the whole world.

 

2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

I've seen a lot of misogyny on this forum but this is pretty special.

Can you seriously not understand why Tyrion might be a bit miffed at being tricked into participating in what he would later discover was a gang rape? Of the woman he loved no less?

The lie would've been traumatic. The truth is devastating.  It's absolutely not just a "simple lesson". If it was, why would it be the one thing that Jaime Lannister feels guilty about?

No idea what that means.
No i can understand,if the truth was told sooner,not so many years after,when it no longer matters at all,because Jaime is a fool maybe?

 

As for her name,simple i dont like her as a character...

[UnFit Finlay]

3 hours ago, Tralalala said:

So you compare emotional abuse to physical? As i said we don't know she wasn't a whore,Tywin may have known something else about her which Jaime and Tyrion didn't,and so so? Tyrion gets disillusioned about love and you cry about it as if it's the most important thing in the whole world.

No. I object to you dismissing emotional abuse because it isn't "as bad" as physical abuse. You are literally saying "Tywin just tricked Tyrion into betraying the one woman who ever loved him in the cruelest possible way imaginable. He should get over it".

We don't know that Tysha wasn't a whore (though I'd imagine Jaime must've been certain and I'd imagine he must've looked into it if only to feel less guilty) but that still doesn't excuse what Tywin did to her and, even if she was a totally willing participant, it doesn't excuse what he did to Tyrion, and Jaime for that matter, who he made complicit in the lie.

Actually as I think about it. I would suggest that the rape is evidence that Tysha was exactly what she appears to be. If she'd been a whore, Tywin could simply have told Tyrion the truth, had the marriage annulled and sent her on her way with some gold. The only real motive for having her raped was to kill *her* love for Tyrion and ensure that she'd never want to see him again.

 

Quote

No idea what that means.
No i can understand,if the truth was told sooner,not so many years after,when it no longer matters at all,because Jaime is a fool maybe?

She was his first love and, really, his only one. Even when he's with Shae he still reflects on how happy he was in his very brief time with Tysha. Finding out it was real and that Tywin destroyed it clearly mattered to him, as evidenced by the crossbow bolt in Tywin's belly.

How can you dislike a character who has never actually featured in the series? We know very little about Tysha but what we do know is absolutely tragic.