(NEW) Entertainment Weekly Photoshoot (2017) With ALL the Starks!!!

[Lord Friendzone]

3 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

Yeah I know that. 

This had been/ is one of the main arguments in the R+L=J debates. That Ned's personality traits Jon "inherited" could just as well come from Rhaegar, that is Jon's taking after Ned doesnt exclude the possibility of R+L=J. Kit will surely attempt to look upset when Jon finds out about his parentage, but R+L has never been such a crucial mystery in the show as it is in the books, so I suppose the hype isn't that strong. It will certainly be something for Jon and Daenerys to connect over. 

The Lannisters are admittedly more interesting than the Starks, but not this interesting. Plus the Starks could have had potential if Arya hadn't spent two seasons sweeping floors and being beaten up in badly lit rooms or if they spent more time and effort on building up a chain of flashbacks for suspense and R+L hype before actual reveals. In my opinion. And, in my opinion, Lena is a terrible Cersei, in my opinion, which is mostly down to the terrible version of Cersei the show decided to portray, in my opinion. 

R+L=J became sort of accepted long time ago and people tend to think as part of canon, boring sort of. How it would serve and there comes vicious debates over claim, prophecy and other things. We need and fort that matter audience needs to know a lot more but they are trying to make it a bit too simplistic. Hopefully next season will show us why Rhaegar did what he did, and I presume it was simply because of love. I do think prophecy was a part of it. Some people still think Robert, Aerys, Ned or even Arthur Dayne could be Jon's father. They did revealed his mother and his Stark heritage, this season his Targaryen side will be revealed. I understand that but it was messy.

People like Ned and certainly more than Rhaegar and rather have Jon connected to the Starks than the Targaryens. They want Jon Stark and I must admit, I've always wanted to see Jon Stark. I understand that Jon will never be a Stark in name but always will be be in his spirit. That's how he was shapped to be as a person and perhaps the most important part. Stark name does not have the same value South of the Neck, this is not his future.

If Jon is ever to become a King or be legitimized, it will be as a Targaryen. Kit will make it beliveable that Jon is acting angry, confused and disorientated over this whole parentage thing. Ultimately he will have to accept it and certainly it will make or break his relationship with Daenerys. She will be happy, relieved and curious that she has another family relative who happens to be in love or as we think he will. Also, it will make her sad because Jon will be hurt by this reveal on many levels.

Arya's Braavos arc was a really bad  on the show, Bran also has so much potential. It looks like they enjoy write for characters like Jon, Sansa or Robb. It's tougher to write for Arya or Bran intricate arcs. Demi God, FM assassin. They have these super abilities but Lannisters are more interesting individuals, without any abilities like that.

6 hours ago, ftheking said:

A pregnant wife is seriously not an heir. It's like a 50% chance for a kid(specially in olden times), 25% chance for a son, who wouldn't be guaranteed to make it to adulthood either, especially not if winter is coming. He was hopeful for an heir. However he never had to name anyone but Jon, the others are automatically his heirs. By legitimating Jon he also becomes automatically an heir, but still only after Robb's son, if there should be one.

They were expecting a baby. Good chance it would have been a healthy baby and Robb did not count on failure or him being dead. This was sort of a back up plan if things did go wrong in the war but not at the wedding. He would have to name someone who should be the next in line (it was his  right todo so) because King can for example exclude Bran and give the title to let's Rickon, Arya or Sansa. In the books the dynamic is a different.

14 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Late to the party here - I'm of the opinion that Jon realizing that Rhaegar was his father and Lyanna his mother doesn't faze him one bit.  In the show he died and went nowhere - given that D&D seem to prefer to tell a story where there is no afterlife then I cannot imagine that Jon, who seems likely to be continued to be portrayed as one of the main heroes, will give a rats ass about prophecy after finding out he is a Targaryen.  Same way he didn't particularly want Mel to try to bring him back to life again.  Also, how many adopted children consider the people who raised them their "real" parents as opposed to their genetic/birth parents, I don't think Jon will care.  And if Jon & Dany literally connect while knowing their both Targaryens that would be a bit too emotionally upsetting for much of their fan base I believe, so I think Jon stays in the dark or rejects his lineage the whole time.

I do think Jon will give a dann about it. This is very important for his mindset going forward, his future and conclusion of an ongoing arc. The whole secret about his mother, him not knowing who she was. Which leads then to reveal of Rhaegar being his father. It will be be really emotional but while I agree he would not care too much for the prophecy, but that he's not a Stark but a legit Targaryen will be important to him, us and obviously the story itself. The reason why Jon and Dany are meeting is to forge a bond and then reveal happens, challenging their relationship to see waht they do feel about each other.

[RhaenysBee]

16 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Late to the party here - I'm of the opinion that Jon realizing that Rhaegar was his father and Lyanna his mother doesn't faze him one bit.  In the show he died and went nowhere - given that D&D seem to prefer to tell a story where there is no afterlife then I cannot imagine that Jon, who seems likely to be continued to be portrayed as one of the main heroes, will give a rats ass about prophecy after finding out he is a Targaryen.  Same way he didn't particularly want Mel to try to bring him back to life again.  Also, how many adopted children consider the people who raised them their "real" parents as opposed to their genetic/birth parents, I don't think Jon will care.  And if Jon & Dany literally connect while knowing their both Targaryens that would be a bit too emotionally upsetting for much of their fan base I believe, so I think Jon stays in the dark or rejects his lineage the whole time.

S6 King's Landing was insufferable.  Keeping Jaime around Cersei makes them both so much worse.  Then again Meereen was awful too.  They should have advanced the Iron Born plot and incorporated it some into S4 or S5 too so the Lannisters/Tyrells could have been dealing with the threat of Euron in addition to the Faith during S6.  Have the Martells make an independent claim with Myrcella and try to take Storm's End, but do something to create a better sense of conflict besides faith vs. crown which was really just "Cersei versus everyone in KL" without big stakes for anyone but her.

I'm not a fan of the GNC but I would have loved if Stannis' plot was carried out as in the books.  I think Jon getting involved more with the northern politics of integrating the free folk in with the Alys Karstark marriage would have been nice.  Felt like S6 was a repeat of S5 - desperate people from the wall try to rally troops to take Winterfell as winter is approaching.  Got real old having done it before in S5.

 

They full around with the names as they please.  Cersei was crowned as Cersei of House Lannister.  IIRC in S5 frankenGregor was introduced as Ser Robert Strong but in S6 they were referring to him as Gregor Clegane openly around everyone - Kevan, Olenna, whoever.  If D&D think the casual audience will understand her better as Sansa Stark/Bolton/Lannister for whatever their theme of the season is they will refer to her that way.

 

While that's quite likely, it would be terribly disappointing. If it doesn't affect him as a character and it doesn't affect his plot, they could have excluded the whole R+L=J story. 

Season 6 as a whole season was quite insufferable, and as you pointed it out too, unduely repetitive. Oh god no, no ironborn for me. Proper Dorne > Great Northern Conspiracy > Ironborn. i don't get why on god's earth they decided to do sandsnakes instead of Arianne. Cut Quentyn of course, Meereen was way too much as it was. But why cut Arianne? Because three stupid and "badass" female characters are better than one? 

I keep getting the feeling that they write the scripts without reading/watching back previous seasons. I still have no idea how no hbo intern or coffee person was sat in front of a screen to proofwatch for Melisandre's necklace. Who makes that kind of mistake? Well Darth Sansa has been cooking since season 4 episode 10. It's kinda straightforward that they are going with the dark and badass "player" Sandra. 

11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Everyone in black is beyond dull and unimaginative.  I mean, why is Dany wearing black?  Why does everyone have Joan Crawford shoulder pads?  If anything, Dany should be wearing something that is an equal mix of red and black.  Why Sansa is in black, who can say?  LOL.  I really dislike Cersei's weird outfit as well.  And same thing.  She's all about the Lannisters, but now, after 6 years, she's out of red and wearing black and silver.  But then I find a lot of the costuming leaves something to be desired......

I've been trying to rationalize the stupid black costumes for a while. One could argue that winter is hear and most backgrounds will be snowy so characters need to pop. After the trailer, this argument can be thrown out of the window because the north is still the only place where there's snow. One could justify Cersei's black gown with the death of all her children. Only, Tommen's death was ultimately her fault and she only ever wore black for the funerals before and never longer. One could also argue that Sandra is wearing black because she is mourning her brother. Only, not a single word or thought seemed to be wasted on Rickon as far as Sandra was concerned. I can't think of anything to justify Daenerys and Missandei's costumes. 

At the end of the day, the costumes are black because somebody stupidly thought that it would make everything more sinister and the female characters would look more "badass" in black leather (in my opinion). Please... 

 

[Meera of Tarth]

38 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I've taken it to be a really over the top way to emphasize winter and death.  While I like each outfit on it's own just fine (except the shoulder pads LOL) it is too much to have all of them in black.  Also makes Tyrion stand out strangely in his blue from the HBO pics.

Because he is the whitest character in the story!

[Cas Stark]

14 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

 

At the end of the day, the costumes are black because somebody stupidly thought that it would make everything more sinister and the female characters would look more "badass" in black leather (in my opinion). Please... 

 

Yeah, I agree.  Winter is dark: black.  Badasses wear black.  Winter+badasses=black. I can't decide which is worse, Dany, who has been badassedly burning people with her dragons for years now has been wearing white and neon blue, and is now in black, or Sansa Stark Lannister Bolton, allegedly reclaiming her Stark heritage, in black.  At least Cersei, you could sort of see it as mourning I suppose...it would help if these black costumes weren't also incredibly unflattering for the most part.  

[Lucius Lovejoy]

9 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

While that's quite likely, it would be terribly disappointing. If it doesn't affect him as a character and it doesn't affect his plot, they could have excluded the whole R+L=J story. 

Season 6 as a whole season was quite insufferable, and as you pointed it out too, unduely repetitive. Oh god no, no ironborn for me. Proper Dorne > Great Northern Conspiracy > Ironborn. i don't get why on god's earth they decided to do sandsnakes instead of Arianne. Cut Quentyn of course, Meereen was way too much as it was. But why cut Arianne? Because three stupid and "badass" female characters are better than one? 

I keep getting the feeling that they write the scripts without reading/watching back previous seasons. I still have no idea how no hbo intern or coffee person was sat in front of a screen to proofwatch for Melisandre's necklace. Who makes that kind of mistake?

I think the only reason why R+L=J is addressed in the TV show is for book readers.  Without much of the Azor Ahai stuff on the show or explanation of the prophecies other than "someone will save us from the white walkers" being said by all of the red priests it really doesn't need to be addressed.  Unless of course I'm wrong, which is probably more likely.

Iron Born might end up being cool in the books - whatever shitshow Euron is causing in the Shields could have been fun on TV.  I enjoyed the Kingsmoot in the books, TV was awful.  I don't need Vic going to Meereen, that we could skip (I'd rather have a Vic/Aeron composite character as a warrior/priest who Euron antagonizes).  Plus Asha and Theon with Stannis and tying in to a proper Stannis versus Roose showdown helps the northern plot significantly.  Proper Dorne (minus Quentyn who GRRM should have cut out) without Aegon is still a crapshoot.  They really screwed up my understanding of Varys in S6 - not sure at all what he and Illyrio are up to now.  Then again, HBO probably isn't either.  You're comment on them writing the scripts without reading/watching previous seasons literally made me laugh out loud and cringe at the same time, it's too damn spot on.

[RhaenysBee]

20 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

R+L=J became sort of accepted long time ago and people tend to think as part of canon, boring sort of. How it would serve and there comes vicious debates over claim, prophecy and other things. We need and fort that matter audience needs to know a lot more but they are trying to make it a bit too simplistic. Hopefully next season will show us why Rhaegar did what he did, and I presume it was simply because of love. I do think prophecy was a part of it. Some people still think Robert, Aerys, Ned or even Arthur Dayne could be Jon's father. They did revealed his mother and his Stark heritage, this season his Targaryen side will be revealed. I understand that but it was messy.

People like Ned and certainly more than Rhaegar and rather have Jon connected to the Starks than the Targaryens. They want Jon Stark and I must admit, I've always wanted to see Jon Stark. I understand that Jon will never be a Stark in name but always will be be in his spirit. That's how he was shapped to be as a person and perhaps the most important part. Stark name does not have the same value South of the Neck, this is not his future.

If Jon is ever to become a King or be legitimized, it will be as a Targaryen. Kit will make it beliveable that Jon is acting angry, confused and disorientated over this whole parentage thing. Ultimately he will have to accept it and certainly it will make or break his relationship with Daenerys. She will be happy, relieved and curious that she has another family relative who happens to be in love or as we think he will. Also, it will make her sad because Jon will be hurt by this reveal on many levels.

Arya's Braavos arc was a really bad  on the show, Bran also has so much potential. It looks like they enjoy write for characters like Jon, Sansa or Robb. It's tougher to write for Arya or Bran intricate arcs. Demi God, FM assassin. They have these super abilities but Lannisters are more interesting individuals, without any abilities like that.

You are a Jon fan.  

Yes, I do believe Rhaegar (and Lyanna) was led by love, instead of being a creepy psychopath as so many people like to claim, and saw the prophecy as justification for his otherwise questionable actions (he was married, Lyanna was engaged). And yes, I hope this will be touched on in the next two seasons (otherwise I really don't get why they aren't doing a Robert's Rebellion spinoff). The One theory to rule them all is that Benjen is Jon's father. 

No, Jon stark was never an idea I liked. To be honest only Jon Snow has a pleasant ring to my ears, but then I also want him to be a Targaryen. That's just my conflicted nature. Anyways, he is as Stark as anybody can get at this point in the show. 

Huh... let's hope Kit can make it believable. And Daenerys is definitely going to be delighted to have another Targaryen. But what's the way out of that? Not falling in love I hope. I would rather see either of them die an epic death. 

yeah, Bran is basically a plot device at this point and Sandra doesn't even have any special abilities. Well I guess now she is supposed to be a political mastermind, but realistically she is just boring and inconsistent. 

 

[Cas Stark]

Thank god for Arya, all I'm sayin.  Although much of her "plot" last year was, how shall I say, dumb as dirt, the character still resonates and is not as far off from her book character as many.

Sansa, I can't even grasp the idea that anyone, ANYONE, would see her awful traitorous behavior as something heroic.  Letting a bunch of Stark allies get killed because she didn't say anything about the Vale army, not caring about Rickon, and still listening to LF.  Also dumb as dirt on the show.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

1 hour ago, Lord Friendzone said:

R+L=J became sort of accepted long time ago and people tend to think as part of canon, boring sort of. How it would serve and there comes vicious debates over claim, prophecy and other things. We need and fort that matter audience needs to know a lot more but they are trying to make it a bit too simplistic. Hopefully next season will show us why Rhaegar did what he did, and I presume it was simply because of love. I do think prophecy was a part of it. Some people still think Robert, Aerys, Ned or even Arthur Dayne could be Jon's father. They did revealed his mother and his Stark heritage, this season his Targaryen side will be revealed. I understand that but it was messy.

People like Ned and certainly more than Rhaegar and rather have Jon connected to the Starks than the Targaryens. They want Jon Stark and I must admit, I've always wanted to see Jon Stark. I understand that Jon will never be a Stark in name but always will be be in his spirit. That's how he was shapped to be as a person and perhaps the most important part. Stark name does not have the same value South of the Neck, this is not his future.

If Jon is ever to become a King or be legitimized, it will be as a Targaryen. Kit will make it beliveable that Jon is acting angry, confused and disorientated over this whole parentage thing. Ultimately he will have to accept it and certainly it will make or break his relationship with Daenerys. She will be happy, relieved and curious that she has another family relative who happens to be in love or as we think he will. Also, it will make her sad because Jon will be hurt by this reveal on many levels.

I can see this IF Jon becomes King of Westeros whether willingly or not.  That's not the path I see for him, so I don't think his Targaryen heritage would be necessary.

I do believe Jon was a product of Rhaegar and Lyanna's love.  I'd rather it be the other way around because it makes more sense to me.  I know this is a fantasy series and I shouldn't read too terribly into author's motives, but do GRRM and D&D want to tell a story where the need to fulfill a prophecy trumped all of the little picture (dishonoring Elia) and big picture (everyone who died during RR)
 moral qualms of the person's act?  If Jon is the hero, the prince that was promised, it means that what Rhaegar and Lyanna did was worth it.  That makes Rhaegar as much of a religious fanatic as Melisandre, and with him being successful it would mean GRRM and D&D are co-signing on this fanaticism... doesn't seem likely to me.  R+L may have been in love and from their love a man who helped saved the world may have been born, but I can't see prophecy fulfillment being something that is positively recognized.  That's partly why I see Jon not caring or rejecting his lineage and still helping to save the kingdom anyway.  A lot of people have died in Westeros because various folks (e.g. Rhaegar, Stannis, Dany) thought they were chosen or even messianic like figures, and to have one of those rewarded would be a little discomforting to me.  Better story if it's an unfortunate selfish thing that R+L did, or even a violent crime that R did.  Just my opinion.

35 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Thank god for Arya, all I'm sayin.  Although much of her "plot" last year was, how shall I say, dumb as dirt, the character still resonates and is not as far off from her book character as many.

Sansa, I can't even grasp the idea that anyone, ANYONE, would see her awful traitorous behavior as something heroic.  Letting a bunch of Stark allies get killed because she didn't say anything about the Vale army, not caring about Rickon, and still listening to LF.  Also dumb as dirt on the show.

I don't think people blame Sansa or really any of the characters for their actions at this point.  They just blame D&D.

[Lord Friendzone]

3 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

You are a Jon fan.  

Yes, I do believe Rhaegar (and Lyanna) was led by love, instead of being a creepy psychopath as so many people like to claim, and saw the prophecy as justification for his otherwise questionable actions (he was married, Lyanna was engaged). And yes, I hope this will be touched on in the next two seasons (otherwise I really don't get why they aren't doing a Robert's Rebellion spinoff). The One theory to rule them all is that Benjen is Jon's father. 

No, Jon stark was never an idea I liked. To be honest only Jon Snow has a pleasant ring to my ears, but then I also want him to be a Targaryen. That's just my conflicted nature. Anyways, he is as Stark as anybody can get at this point in the show. 

Huh... let's hope Kit can make it believable. And Daenerys is definitely going to be delighted to have another Targaryen. But what's the way out of that? Not falling in love I hope. I would rather see either of them die an epic death. 

yeah, Bran is basically a plot device at this point and Sandra doesn't even have any special abilities. Well I guess now she is supposed to be a political mastermind, but realistically she is just boring and inconsistent. 

 

Forst and foremost Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire fan and I want a good story all around. Certainly I do like Dany and the Starks mor than anyone in this story. I also love the Targaryens in general and House Dayne and everything that comes with them controversy, beauty, dragons or madness. Plenty to talk about. Daynes are sort of underrated part of the story but I think in the books much more relevant than many people give them credit for.

Tbh Rhaegar was a bit obssessed with the prophecy but show wil make it look it was only out of love. Books will devolve into this more and show us various aspirations of Rhaegar that lead to what he did and what he thought was an acceptable for the sake of the future of Westeros.

Benjen and Jon's father,As incest between him and Lyanna? Benjen was during that time at Tourney of Harrenhal and then acting os Lod of Winterfell and Warden of the North during Robert's Rebellion. He might know or suspect Jon is Lyanna's as he knew her, been at Tourney of Harrenhal and knows who Ned is.

Kit makes a very good confused face expression, so I think he'll nail this aspect. Dany will for sure find it as incredible gift to her, someone she loves is also her family relative. She wanted a family and she has someone decent unlike Viserys. Jon has Starks ideals, principles and morals but with a bit of fiery, passionate and ruthless aspects on the side because of his Targaryen heritage.

I like Jon Stark, Targaryen or Snow. All would make sense but George and  D&D have their own ideas. Just hope legitimization or reveal is being done correctly. It's ap retty important aspect of the story.

Bran being a plot device is something I really dislike and Sansa. They ant her to make her look liek a badass, confident, independent female character, and in some parts it works, but in others it doesn't.

 

2 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I can see this IF Jon becomes King of Westeros whether willingly or not.  That's not the path I see for him, so I don't think his Targaryen heritage would be necessary.

I do believe Jon was a product of Rhaegar and Lyanna's love.  I'd rather it be the other way around because it makes more sense to me.  I know this is a fantasy series and I shouldn't read too terribly into author's motives, but do GRRM and D&D want to tell a story where the need to fulfill a prophecy trumped all of the little picture (dishonoring Elia) and big picture (everyone who died during RR)
 moral qualms of the person's act?  If Jon is the hero, the prince that was promised, it means that what Rhaegar and Lyanna did was worth it.  That makes Rhaegar as much of a religious fanatic as Melisandre, and with him being successful it would mean GRRM and D&D are co-signing on this fanaticism... doesn't seem likely to me.  R+L may have been in love and from their love a man who helped saved the world may have been born, but I can't see prophecy fulfillment being something that is positively recognized.  That's partly why I see Jon not caring or rejecting his lineage and still helping to save the kingdom anyway.  A lot of people have died in Westeros because various folks (e.g. Rhaegar, Stannis, Dany) thought they were chosen or even messianic like figures, and to have one of those rewarded would be a little discomforting to me.  Better story if it's an unfortunate selfish thing that R+L did, or even a violent crime that R did.  Just my opinion.

If Jon is to become the  King, he has o have Targaryen surname. Starks surname or Snow simply has not much of a political value or historical place there. This twist of him being legit and trueborn has to make sense storywise. Jon will or should bcome the King because of his actions and not name but his heritage will certainly help him in this aspect.

I agree and disagree.

On one hand making Rhaegar fanatic would not make him any more evil than some already think of him. He already made plenty of mistakes. If your scenario is to happen which I can't rue out in the books, it puts an interesting twist to it. That the whole debacle that he made was actually worth it thanks to Jon being one of the people leading humanity to fight against the dead. Show will make it about love, books might go a different route but they'll both arrive at the same place. Jon being one of the heroes and linked to prophecy thanks to this. Much like Shireen's death will under differen cirucumstances in the books as opposed to the show.

[ftheking]

16 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

They were expecting a baby. Good chance it would have been a healthy baby and Robb did not count on failure or him being dead.

Every parent knows a pregnancy is not a kid even today. Hence why people usually don't announce it right away. Seriously, you sound uninformed. Still even if naive, young, male Robb was 100% certain to be a father soon, he must have known it might be a girl. A girl is not an heir, outside of Dorne, not when she has uncles.

Quote

He would have to name someone who should be the next in line (it was his  right todo so) because King can for example exclude Bran and give the title to let's Rickon, Arya or Sansa. .

Uh, he can try, usually leading to bloodshed. But Robb wouldn't and he didn't. All he did was legitimising Jon when he thought Bran and Rickon and possibly the girls were dead and he therefore heirless. What makes you say he'd "have to" name an heir, we haven't seen other kings do that, with the exception of crazy Balon, and no one respected his decision/right there.

[A Ghost of Someone]

15 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Thank god for Arya, all I'm sayin.  Although much of her "plot" last year was, how shall I say, dumb as dirt, the character still resonates and is not as far off from her book character as many.

Sansa, I can't even grasp the idea that anyone, ANYONE, would see her awful traitorous behavior as something heroic.  Letting a bunch of Stark allies get killed because she didn't say anything about the Vale army, not caring about Rickon, and still listening to LF.  Also dumb as dirt on the show.

They squandered the sympathy she garnered from her abuse with Ramsay to make her take it out on her own family and countrymen.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

11 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

If Jon is to become the  King, he has o have Targaryen surname. Starks surname or Snow simply has not much of a political value or historical place there. This twist of him being legit and trueborn has to make sense storywise. Jon will or should bcome the King because of his actions and not name but his heritage will certainly help him in this aspect.

I agree with your assessment - IF Jon becomes King of Westeros, it is only as Jon Targaryen.  But I don't think he becomes King of Westeros.

[Lord Friendzone]

15 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Thank god for Arya, all I'm sayin.  Although much of her "plot" last year was, how shall I say, dumb as dirt, the character still resonates and is not as far off from her book character as many.

Sansa, I can't even grasp the idea that anyone, ANYONE, would see her awful traitorous behavior as something heroic.  Letting a bunch of Stark allies get killed because she didn't say anything about the Vale army, not caring about Rickon, and still listening to LF.  Also dumb as dirt on the show.

I don't think we're supposed to see it as heroic but rather just a simply revenge from her. To exact her revenge, she had to lie to Jon or be careful what to say and what to not say. She saw only revenge and in rather colldish way basically dismiss Rickon's fate, very unlike Stark nature would tells us. Sometimes acting like non-Stark might be a good idea.

11 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I agree with your assessment - IF Jon becomes King of Westeros, it is only as Jon Targaryen.  But I don't think he becomes King of Westeros.

I would certanly prefer Jon to just have his own cottage and be with his wife somewhere in the North. Jon's destiny will always be more than that and from the books or the show, we got good amount of hints that he'll become King of Seven Kingdoms. It follows the pattern of him being eager hero but a reluctant ruler.

I would say will have to change his firstname too from Jon to whatever Rhaegar and Lyanna intended to give him because it's a secret for a reason. This might be one of the steps to fully embrace his Targaryen heritage. 

9 hours ago, ftheking said:

Every parent knows a pregnancy is not a kid even today. Hence why people usually don't announce it right away. Seriously, you sound uninformed. Still even if naive, young, male Robb was 100% certain to be a father soon, he must have known it might be a girl. A girl is not an heir, outside of Dorne, not when she has uncles.

Uh, he can try, usually leading to bloodshed. But Robb wouldn't and he didn't. All he did was legitimising Jon when he thought Bran and Rickon and possibly the girls were dead and he therefore heirless. What makes you say he'd "have to" name an heir, we haven't seen other kings do that, with the exception of crazy Balon, and no one respected his decision/right there.

Show did not go too far into this way of thinking. He had an heir and thus no need for his will to be created, like in the books. This is the difference for GNC and how it will work in the books vs the show version. This was my point and you're just turning it into something else. I'm very well informed, don't worry about that.

[Cas Stark]

I really don't think the audience is supposed to see Sansa in a negative light.  

We are, I believe, supposed to say to ourselves 'she's a player now, look how she maneuvered with LF/Jon/Vale army.  I don't see it that way, I see what she did as straight up treason to the North, but I doubt most of the audience or critics see it that way.  In the same way, that her murdering Ramsay instead of having him formally executed for his numerous crimes is not supposed to be un Stark like, but it was her Boss Ass Individual moment.

[RhaenysBee]

15 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Yeah, I agree.  Winter is dark: black.  Badasses wear black.  Winter+badasses=black. I can't decide which is worse, Dany, who has been badassedly burning people with her dragons for years now has been wearing white and neon blue, and is now in black, or Sansa Stark Lannister Bolton, allegedly reclaiming her Stark heritage, in black.  At least Cersei, you could sort of see it as mourning I suppose...it would help if these black costumes weren't also incredibly unflattering for the most part.  

Daenerys looks horrible. (In my opinion, god forbid this comes off as a fact or someone else's opinion) Which is an insane achievement as she looked good even in Dothraki clothes with messy hair when they were starving in the desert at the beginning of season 2. Her hairstyle is terrible, her costume is terrible. And Lady Sandra's ascend to badassry must be presented in her clothing. 

15 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I think the only reason why R+L=J is addressed in the TV show is for book readers.  Without much of the Azor Ahai stuff on the show or explanation of the prophecies other than "someone will save us from the white walkers" being said by all of the red priests it really doesn't need to be addressed.  Unless of course I'm wrong, which is probably more likely.

Iron Born might end up being cool in the books - whatever shitshow Euron is causing in the Shields could have been fun on TV.  I enjoyed the Kingsmoot in the books, TV was awful.  I don't need Vic going to Meereen, that we could skip (I'd rather have a Vic/Aeron composite character as a warrior/priest who Euron antagonizes).  Plus Asha and Theon with Stannis and tying in to a proper Stannis versus Roose showdown helps the northern plot significantly.  Proper Dorne (minus Quentyn who GRRM should have cut out) without Aegon is still a crapshoot.  They really screwed up my understanding of Varys in S6 - not sure at all what he and Illyrio are up to now.  Then again, HBO probably isn't either.  You're comment on them writing the scripts without reading/watching previous seasons literally made me laugh out loud and cringe at the same time, it's too damn spot on.

I don't think they are doing anything for the book fans. Maybe, but I doubt it. I think it's just a good tool to make the story more about Jon and create some suspense and stray back to romance (as that's what R+L is - in my opinion) which they have been pretty low on as after Tyrion and Shae came to an ugly end, in the past two seasons the best excuse for romance has been Cersei and Jaime and Missandei and GreyWorm. 

I personally can't stand any of the ironborn chapters in the books, so I don't really see any plot version that would make me enjoy their story. I can see the need for Asha and Theon but the rest of them should have been cut. - in my opinion. 

11 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Forst and foremost Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire fan and I want a good story all around. Certainly I do like Dany and the Starks mor than anyone in this story. I also love the Targaryens in general and House Dayne and everything that comes with them controversy, beauty, dragons or madness. Plenty to talk about. Daynes are sort of underrated part of the story but I think in the books much more relevant than many people give them credit for.

Tbh Rhaegar was a bit obssessed with the prophecy but show wil make it look it was only out of love. Books will devolve into this more and show us various aspirations of Rhaegar that lead to what he did and what he thought was an acceptable for the sake of the future of Westeros.

Benjen and Jon's father,As incest between him and Lyanna? Benjen was during that time at Tourney of Harrenhal and then acting os Lod of Winterfell and Warden of the North during Robert's Rebellion. He might know or suspect Jon is Lyanna's as he knew her, been at Tourney of Harrenhal and knows who Ned is.

Kit makes a very good confused face expression, so I think he'll nail this aspect. Dany will for sure find it as incredible gift to her, someone she loves is also her family relative. She wanted a family and she has someone decent unlike Viserys. Jon has Starks ideals, principles and morals but with a bit of fiery, passionate and ruthless aspects on the side because of his Targaryen heritage.

I like Jon Stark, Targaryen or Snow. All would make sense but George and  D&D have their own ideas. Just hope legitimization or reveal is being done correctly. It's ap retty important aspect of the story.

Bran being a plot device is something I really dislike and Sansa. They ant her to make her look liek a badass, confident, independent female character, and in some parts it works, but in others it doesn't.

Yeah, we all are. I might be biased (no, I'm most likely biased), but I kind of feel like the audience overexaggerates this prophecy business. Yes, Rhaegar believed in that prophecy but I never got the impression that he was more obsessed with prophecy than any other character who knew about a prophecy.  

the theory claims that Benjen took the black because of the incestous relationship with Lyanna which resulted in her death. I don't know what role Rhaegar played in this, I'm not sure the owner of the theory thought about that. And yes, it obviously makes no sense. 

Yeah, that's about the only face Kit can make. I don't think d&d will bother with legitimizing Jon. What is law after all? 

I don't think it works at all. People have this misconception about what makes a female character strong and independent. Sandra is a stupid selfish little shit, not a strong and independent female character. catelyn was a strong and independent female character. Or book Ellaria. 

 

[Cas Stark]

4 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

 

the theory claims that Benjen took the black because of the incestous relationship with Lyanna which resulted in her death. I don't know what role Rhaegar played in this, I'm not sure the owner of the theory thought about that. And yes, it obviously makes no sense. 

Yeah, that's about the only face Kit can make. I don't think d&d will bother with legitimizing Jon. What is law after all? 

I don't think it works at all. People have this misconception about what makes a female character strong and independent. Sandra is a stupid selfish little shit, not a strong and independent female character. catelyn was a strong and independent female character. Or book Ellaria. 

 

LMAO.  If only one had the time to rank the stupidest theories.  Benjen probably took the black because of something that happened regarding Lyanna, like maybe he helped her leave with Rhaegar, or something went down...but incest, that's a non starter.  Like Mance is Rheagar.  Crackpot.

The show has his back story of who his parents are for a reason....so I think they are going to make him legitimate, but not sure it will prove to be very important to the end game, but then I don't think he will sit the IT.

Show Sansa is not a very good or very smart person, according to me.  But mileage varies, her character has gotten a lot of praise since she went 'basass/player'.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

31 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Show Sansa is not a very good or very smart person, according to me.  But mileage varies, her character has gotten a lot of praise since she went 'basass/player'.

I liked Sansa prior to S5, and was really intrigued by her black dress walk down the Eyrie and the look on LF's face as her S4 parting shot.  I thought "damn, she is going to be a player now, LF is going to want her and she's going to turn the tide and manipulate him."  Then the nonsensical Bolton marriage happened.  In S6 I think she literally told Lyanna Mormont "I did what I had to do to survive."  IIRC in that S5 horse carriage LF told her to say the word and he'd take her back, and she had a chance to go with Brienne at the inn.  Yeah, if she really thought her choice was marry Roose Bolton's bastard or LF will do something awful to me then LF doesn't make it out of S6E3 alive.  So not sure how marrying Ramsay = survival.  But you know all of these things - I think we have to accept that most show watchers don't remember most of these characters' names let alone what they said or their motivations were seasons ago, and so Sansa's general assertiveness and self confidence is being praised.

You know the most badass thing Sansa has done yet?  Speak up to save Dontos back in S2.

[RhaenysBee]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

LMAO.  If only one had the time to rank the stupidest theories.  Benjen probably took the black because of something that happened regarding Lyanna, like maybe he helped her leave with Rhaegar, or something went down...but incest, that's a non starter.  Like Mance is Rheagar.  Crackpot.

The show has his back story of who his parents are for a reason....so I think they are going to make him legitimate, but not sure it will prove to be very important to the end game, but then I don't think he will sit the IT.

Show Sansa is not a very good or very smart person, according to me.  But mileage varies, her character has gotten a lot of praise since she went 'basass/player'.

Yeah, and Quaithe is Elia. we really need a top 10 stupidest theories ranking. 

I have no clue what the show will do and I'm trying really hard not to have expectations. I can totally see King Jon Targaryen First of his name on the iron throne though. And I don't quite see how his Targ heritage will be relevant unless he is to sit on the iron throne (for a short while at least before he dies a heroic and we can install the famous republic of westeros with president Tyrion /sarcasm off). 

Yeah, it's baffling. After season 6 I tried watching a couple Sophie Turner interviews to make some sense of the character. It was a baaaaaaaaaad idea. Oh well, maybe season 7 will make sense of Sandra. Or not. 

55 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

You know the most badass thing Sansa has done yet?  Speak up to save Dontos back in S2.

YES! Exactly.  

[Lord Friendzone]

7 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

Yeah, we all are. I might be biased (no, I'm most likely biased), but I kind of feel like the audience overexaggerates this prophecy business. Yes, Rhaegar believed in that prophecy but I never got the impression that he was more obsessed with prophecy than any other character who knew about a prophecy.  

the theory claims that Benjen took the black because of the incestous relationship with Lyanna which resulted in her death. I don't know what role Rhaegar played in this, I'm not sure the owner of the theory thought about that. And yes, it obviously makes no sense. 

Yeah, that's about the only face Kit can make. I don't think d&d will bother with legitimizing Jon. What is law after all? 

I don't think it works at all. People have this misconception about what makes a female character strong and independent. Sandra is a stupid selfish little shit, not a strong and independent female character. catelyn was a strong and independent female character. Or book Ellaria. 

We all are slightly biased in favour of our favourite characters.

Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy at least we think so until George gives us more clues or reveal what really lead to this but he did said that Rhaegar was a lovestruck Prince. Maybe the main reason was truly a love and while he likes and respected Elia, he didn't loved her the way she did him. Many other characters were more obsessed with the prophecy or were paying even more attention ot it.

The time doesn't work for this theory, neither does characters traits. Do I believe Benjen fall in love with some woman, maybe but not Lyanna. He might've helped her run off with Rhaegar and took the blame for what happened to them. Incest to this extent is realy not their thing.

Kit is certainly capable of other facial expressions but he's the master of this in particular.

Cat did made couple of blunders and Sansa still has her age as an excuse and advantage in this debate. That's the way D&D sees her. Not exactly what many fans sees her but it's entirely up to people's perception of the character.

[RhaenysBee]

On 2017. 06. 01. at 1:04 AM, Lord Friendzone said:

We all are slightly biased in favour of our favourite characters.

Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy at least we think so until George gives us more clues or reveal what really lead to this but he did said that Rhaegar was a lovestruck Prince. Maybe the main reason was truly a love and while he likes and respected Elia, he didn't loved her the way she did him. Many other characters were more obsessed with the prophecy or were paying even more attention ot it.

The time doesn't work for this theory, neither does characters traits. Do I believe Benjen fall in love with some woman, maybe but not Lyanna. He might've helped her run off with Rhaegar and took the blame for what happened to them. Incest to this extent is realy not their thing.

Kit is certainly capable of other facial expressions but he's the master of this in particular.

Cat did made couple of blunders and Sansa still has her age as an excuse and advantage in this debate. That's the way D&D sees her. Not exactly what many fans sees her but it's entirely up to people's perception of the character.

Yes that's exactly my point. That he did what he did out of crazy stupid love and told himself it was fine to run off with Lyanna and leave his family because there was even a prophecy saying he needed a third child. And yes, there are other characters who we know to be way more obsessed with their prophecy than we suspect Rhaegar to be. 

I don't know why Benjen joined the NW but definitely not because of an incestous relationship that resulted in Jon. 

Yes, there are about two or three more facial expressions he uses. at least I don't think he is a particularly good actor. 

Okay so a strong and independent character means the character is also flawless? I don't think that being strong and idependet and making mistakes are mutually exclusive. Catelyn was certainly not above making mistakes but that didn't make her less strong or independent. And I don't even particularly like Catelyn