My take on the Tower of Joy

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Regardless of how old Jon is when Cat first meets him at Winterfell, we know for a fact that Jon and Robb are very close in age. Therefore, for the underlined above to work, Robb would have to be almost the same age, i.e., ~ 24 months old, and we know he wasn't. 

Do we? I don't think we do...

I am claiming that Jon is about 3 months older than Robb.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Bloodraven does everything. That's how all the baseless tinfoil works 

Thanks  

if you really want to see all the shit BR has done, just follow the link in my signature and waste 10 hours of your life reading my grand theory  

Of course... it is all baseless tinfoil, so I'm not sure it is worth reading. It was definitely worth my time coming up with and writing over 26,000 words of baseless tinfoil, but I'm weird like that  

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Bloodraven does everything. That's how all the baseless tinfoil works 

Course he does! That little time-travelling skinchanging little

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, sgtpimenta said:

Mendelian Genetics have no place in ASOIAF, I think "always he found the gold yielding before the coal" proves that well enough.

And yet Ned thinks that Arthur Dayne was the finest knight he ever saw. That's a big compliment for someone who was willing to sacrifice your beloved sister.

The quote you referenced fully supports the idea that Mendelian genetics are at work. And why would Mendelian genetics have no place in a story written by an author who has previously applied the concept of Mendelian genetics to telepathic abilities in Nightflyers and more generally in his Thousand Worlds Universe? The entire main plot of AGOT, as you alluded to, is centered around the fact that Joffrey has golden hair because he is a bastard and black hair is genetically dominant. And the guy who acquired the most scientific knowledge of dragons and their breeding was Septon Barth who may be both a reference to Barth's syndrome, an X chromosome-linked genetic disorder, and the asoiaf counterpart to the real life monk and father of genetics Gregor Mendel. Your "proof" is far from convincing to say the least.

And I am not sure Ned put all the pieces together on what was going to happen at the ToJ. He probably thought Arthur Dayne was just fighting for the sake of duty and honor. It's hard to say.

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Do we? I don't think we do...

I am claiming that Jon is about 3 months older than Robb.

We do. Can't look up the quote now b/c I have two elephants here who want their dinners, but will do so later when I get home. 

I still think that 3 months in babies and toddlers is a long time... maybe it is possible, but I don't believe it. For instance the diff in appearance between a 3 mo baby and a 6 mo one is huge!

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 hours ago, Wolfgirly said:

I might've mentioned this already, of not on this thread, then it was on another thread. I pointed out/asked a question really as to why anyone should think the KG would harm Lyanna and Jon? The KG were there to guard the tower as the prince asked them to do so. But fighting Ned and his group were just seen as trying to break in. I don't know and not sure why they couldn't allow just Ned to go in unless they didn't trust him. Lyanna was having Rhaegar's child. Why wouldn't Lyanna contact her family while she was staying at the tower of joy?

That sentence is exactly why your explanation doesn't make any sense. You are basically accepting the story we are told at face value, but the story is nonsense.

And I happen to think blood magic is a pretty good reason to harm at least Lyanna, at least in the view of Rhaegar.

[sgtpimenta]

2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The entire main plot of AGOT, as you alluded to, is centered around the fact that Joffrey has golden hair because he is a bastard and black hair is genetically dominant.

That's not how genetics work. If black hair is dominant, then it should be possible to black haired people to have recessive genes hidden in their lineage and, eventually, to breed golden haired descendants.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

We do. Can't look up the quote now b/c I have two elephants here who want their dinners, but will do so later when I get home. 

I still think that 3 months in babies and toddlers is a long time... maybe it is possible, but I don't believe it. For instance the diff in appearance between a 3 mo baby and a 6 mo one is huge!

LOL we don't.  

If you can find a quote that says otherwise when unfettered by hungry elephants I will be surprised. Here is the main quote where we get the info from Cat:

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

So we don't know how much time has passed between Robb's birth and Cat arriving at WF. The only thing we know for sure is that Jon's wet nurse is still there, and presumably still nursing, which implies Jon is likely younger than 24 months, but that's as accurate as we can get without more info. A lot of people assume it was about 1 year because Cat says "they had spent that year apart", but "that year" is simply referring to the first year of their marriage, in which Ned had purportedly fathered Jon.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 minutes ago, sgtpimenta said:

That's not how genetics work. If black hair is dominant, then it should be possible to black haired people to have recessive genes hidden in their lineage and, eventually, to breed golden haired descendants.

Yeah, eventually you could get golden-haired Baratheons. But the fact is that Ned is not talking about a large number of Baratheons, and most Baratheons did not marry golden-haired people. Here is the quote from Ned:

The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.

So going 120 years back, we have exactly 4 children between Baratheons and Lannisters. And Ned specified that all children between Baratheons and Lannisters had black hair. But Baratheons have only been around since the conquest, less than 300 years. So how many children between Baratheons and Lannisters were there in the remaining 180 years? 5 or 6 would be a reasonable guess. So the question is, is it feasible that with Mendelian genetics in play, 10 children between a black-haired family and a blonde family all have black hair? Absolutely.

[sgtpimenta]

23 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Yeah, eventually you could get golden-haired Baratheons. But the fact is that Ned is not talking about a large number of Baratheons, and most Baratheons did not marry golden-haired people.

When you take into account all those black-haired bastards Robert left behind, then we are not talking about a small number anymore...

Feasible? Yeah. Probable? Not very much.

Say what you must, but I don't think that GRRM have planned his magnum opus as a mendelian genetics school problem. The color of one's hair is a plot device, used to tell a bigger story. George will use genetics when is convenient, but I don't think his universe is bound by the same laws our universe is.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

26 minutes ago, sgtpimenta said:

When you take into account all those black-haired bastards Robert left behind, then we are not talking about a small number anymore...

Feasible? Yeah. Probable? Not very much.

Say what you must, but I don't think that GRRM have planned his magnum opus as a mendelian genetics school problem. The color of one's hair is a plot device, used to tell a bigger story. George will use genetics when is convenient, but I don't think his universe is bound by the same laws our universe is.

But if Robert only had dominant black-haired geens and no recessive blonde genes, then all his children could have black hair. And we only actually see 3 of them if I remember correctly.

Feasible? Yeah. Probable? YEAH.

Again, GRRM has an entire universe where a bunch of stories take place (not ASOIAF) in which Mendelian genetics applies, at least in some sci-fi fashion. Why couldn't he do the same for his magnum opus? If anything, I would expect it, since we know he has borrowed other concepts from his Thousand Worlds Universe like skinchanging.

[Bernie Mac]

29 minutes ago, sgtpimenta said:

When you take into account all those black-haired bastards Robert left behind, then we are not talking about a small number anymore...

 

Unfortunately Robert only ever acknowledged one of those bastards. The rest being secret bastards. 

[sgtpimenta]

8 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Feasible? Yeah. Probable? YEAH.

Yeah... we'll have to agree to disagree, here. At any rate, we are WAY off topic by now. Should we go back to the Tower of Joy?

 

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And I am not sure Ned put all the pieces together on what was going to happen at the ToJ. He probably thought Arthur Dayne was just fighting for the sake of duty and honor. It's hard to say.

So, in you version of ToJ, Ned is just wrong about Dayne? He thinks, for some reason, that the Sword of Morning is this swell guy, when in truth Arthur Dayne was a just-following-orders-soldier who was willing to practice human sacrifice with Lyanna? Some kind of lousy Nazi officer?

And how we, the readers, are supposed to finally find out about that? I mean, if Ned is oblivious to this, so must be Howland Reed... Who will do the reveal in your scenario?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

36 minutes ago, sgtpimenta said:

So, in you version of ToJ, Ned is just wrong about Dayne? He thinks, for some reason, that the Sword of Morning is this swell guy, when in truth Arthur Dayne was a just-following-orders-soldier who was willing to practice human sacrifice with Lyanna? Some kind of lousy Nazi officer?

And how we, the readers, are supposed to finally find out about that? I mean, if Ned is oblivious to this, so must be Howland Reed... Who will do the reveal in your scenario?

Where are you getting that Ned thought he was a "swell guy"? I'm pretty sure this quote is the only reference we have on Ned's opinion:

Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. "No longer," he answered, "but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world."

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

So nothing about him being a swell guy, just that he was the "finest knight" Ned ever saw, and I assume based on context that he is simply referring to fighting abilities. Ned never knew Arthur. His only major interaction with the man was fighting him to the death.

And all ToJ info could be potentially revealed by Howland Reed, or Bran via the weirnet.

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

it is all baseless tinfoil, so I'm not sure it is worth reading. It was definitely worth my time coming up with and writing over 26,000 words of baseless tinfoil, but I'm weird like that

I like your baseless tinfoil (although the three-part tome is a bit daunting).  Once in a while, you're able to transmute that 'base' metal into 'gold' .

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I like your baseless tinfoil (although the three-part tome is a bit daunting).  Once in a while, you're able to transmute that 'base' metal into 'gold' .

LOL thank you very much! 

My grand theory definitely is a mixed bag of hard evidence and crackpottery. Funny enough, my main motivation for creating such a daunting "tome" was because I would often make seemingly ridiculous claims based on the grand theory contained inside my brain, without also posting a bunch of evidence to back them up, such as the statement that BR sent the assassin after Bran and planted LF's dagger on purpose to start the Wot5K, or that the Undying are still alive, or that the attack on LC Mormont was a false flag operation. So I ended up finally writing everything down just so when people say to me "No, that's ridiculous tinfoil and there is no evidence!" now I can just be like, please see the link in my signature  

[Wolfgirly]

4 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

That sentence is exactly why your explanation doesn't make any sense. You are basically accepting the story we are told at face value, but the story is nonsense.

And I happen to think blood magic is a pretty good reason to harm at least Lyanna, at least in the view of Rhaegar.

How is that? I don't believe the Kings Guard intended to harm Lyanna at all. Why should they?

[Crona]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Mayhaps the kingsguard were following someone else's orders, not Aerys' or Rhaegar's, or were carrying out their own plot and both Rhaegar and Lyanna were taken against their will, in which case Jon might not be a Targaryen at all (he doesn't seem to have any Targ traits) and "promise me, Ned" means something else entirely.

Never heard of this one before but I find it very intriguing

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 minutes ago, Wolfgirly said:

How is that? I don't believe the Kings Guard intended to harm Lyanna at all. Why should they?

As a sacrifice, to create a savior to fight against the Long Night. Recall that in the legend of Azor Ahai, AA sacrifices his wife. Mel, who like Rhaegar is also super familiar with the AAR prophecy and trying to fulfill it, is always going on and on about sacrificing King's Blood to the flames to wake dragons from stone, yada yada. And there are a couple clues pointing to the fact that there may have been wildfire in the base of the ToJ for some reason, namely the missing wildfire from KL, the fact that Ned somehow brought down the entire tower single-handedly, and the potential parallel of Cersei bringing down the Tower of the Hand with wildfire. Another big clue into Rhaegar's intentions is the Tragedy at Summerhall, the event at which Rhaegar was born. This was yet another attempt by Targaryens to fulfill prophecy and hatch dragons utilizing wildfire. I'm not sure what Rhaegar thought would happen exactly as a result of sacrificing Lyanna, but his actions would be perfectly in line with Mel and with previous Targaryens. I assume he thought that his newborn daughter Visenya would be magically endowed with super powers or something along those lines. Or maybe Rhaegar put dragon eggs in the ToJ as well and thought they might hatch from the sacrifice, and later Visenya could ride one. This would be quite similar to Dany hatching the eggs on Drogo's pyre.

And that scenario would explain why the KG fought Ned. Ned was trying to save Lyanna, and the KG had orders to sacrifice her after she gave birth. It would also be a great twist on the whole "romance" angle.  

[Wolfgirly]

2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

As a sacrifice, to create a savior to fight against the Long Night. Recall that in the legend of Azor Ahai, AA sacrifices his wife. Mel, who like Rhaegar is also super familiar with the AAR prophecy and trying to fulfill it, is always going on and on about sacrificing King's Blood to the flames to wake dragons from stone, yada yada. And there are a couple clues pointing to the fact that there may have been wildfire in the base of the ToJ for some reason, namely the missing wildfire from KL, the fact that Ned somehow brought down the entire tower single-handedly, and the potential parallel of Cersei bringing down the Tower of the Hand with wildfire. Another big clue into Rhaegar's intentions is the Tragedy at Summerhall, the event at which Rhaegar was born. This was yet another attempt by Targaryens to fulfill prophecy and hatch dragons utilizing wildfire. I'm not sure what Rhaegar thought would happen exactly as a result of sacrificing Lyanna, but his actions would be perfectly in line with Mel and with previous Targaryens. I assume he thought that his newborn daughter Visenya would be magically endowed with super powers or something along those lines. Or maybe Rhaegar put dragon eggs in the ToJ as well and thought they might hatch from the sacrifice, and later Visenya could ride one. This would be quite similar to Dany hatching the eggs on Drogo's pyre.

And that scenario would explain why the KG fought Ned. Ned was trying to save Lyanna, and the KG had orders to sacrifice her after she gave birth. It would also be a great twist on the whole "romance" angle.  

Erm that was pretty wild stuff but interesting.

I don't think that Rhaegar wanted to sacrifice Lyanna and the baby. Or what you said being the case.