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Crona

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  1. Crona

    Quentyn

    they did not mention his face in that description. It could have been body language This is a thread about Quentyn’s body not his narrative purpose. We don’t know what is in store for him in Winds nor has GRRM has said any of the things you said above. I do have one thing to say, why waste all these chapters on him if he added nothing to story? Only serves as a plot device for Dany and Doran. Which btw doesn’t make sense cause Arch is going to deliver the body by walking and they are fighting in Meeren right now and Arianne is on her way to Aegon. She will reach Aegon way before Arch and Gerris reach Dorne and would have to make a decision before knowing about Quentyn’s fate. There’s already a reason for her to switch sides to Aegon because A. He’s Elia’s child and B. There’s already rumors of Dany’s death.
  2. Crona

    Quentyn

    There were 50 men with Tatters, perhaps they were able to grab Quentyn while leaving? The ending of the dragontamer chapter is ambiguous at best. We don’t know exactly what happened. I would say this may be a detail he missed, but he repeatedly mentions the mask and his dead body shows up a chapter later. I really don’t think he would forget this detail after describing what happens with direct heat on the mask. also in GRRM’s 2021 calendar, the front page has Quentyn with a mask on in the dragonpit
  3. Crona

    Quentyn

    We were in Quentyn’s POV while in the dragonpit, he is noted wearing the mask while going into the dragonpit. In the scene there is no indication that he took it off, Arch and Gerris could be lying and it was probably visible from his body language like shaking. I wouldn’t think Martin would know the semantics of actual melted metal and this is probably the reason the first man who was killed had melted metal. If his brain was cooked then why was he responsive to Missandei?
  4. Crona

    Quentyn

    Actually the crossbowman took a direct hit and his mask had melted and didn’t disintegrate. I would think melted metal would be stuck the skin and bones of Quentyn by then quite difficult to take off. Especially his skull. I do agree that there are a lot of differences but that still doesn’t explain why there isn’t melted brass on the body. There were fifty men with Tatters, they could have not had masks on either.
  5. Crona

    Quentyn

    I was re-reading ADWD and I found something interesting regarding Quentyn's dead body. In the Dragontamer chapter, Quentyn, Gerris, and Arch all wear brass masks "I'll be the bull," Arch announced. Quentyn handed him the bull mask. "The lion for me." "Which makes a monkey out of me." Gerris pressed the ape mask to his face. "How do they breathe in these things?" "Just put it on." The prince was in no mood for japes. Quentyn wears the mask while going into the dragon pit and doesn't take off the mask. Here is a description of what happens to someone who has the mask on while being burned: The crossbowman was fumbling for another quarrel as the dragon's teeth closed around his neck. The man wore the mask of a Brazen Beast, the fearsome likeness of a tiger. As he dropped his weapon to try and pry apart Viserion's jaws, flame gouted from the tiger's mouth. The man's eyes burst with soft popping sounds, and the brass around them began to run. The dragon tore off a hunk of flesh, most of the sellsword's neck, then gulped it down as the burning corpse collapsed to the floor. So the brass melts and runs down the body Here is the body Barristan sees: How can you tell? He has no lips. It would have been kinder if the dragons had devoured him. That at least would have been quick. This … Fire is a hideous way to die. Small wonder half the hells are made of flame. "Cover him." the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell's face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus. What I find odd is the body has no sign of melted brass. Barristan doesn't even note any type of melted metal to be seen on the body. The skin on his face is almost gone, so maybe the metal fell off the face. However, the brass should have dripped past his neck and to his chest. It would have been difficult to take the melted metal off him. When Quentyn's body is discovered, I am not sure Barristan had checked the body, he says the Brazen Beasts had found the dornishmen and he commanded the body to lie on Dany's bed. Nobody took care of the body except Missandei and I am not sure if she would be able to take melted brass off of him. She seemed mostly to comfort him and give milk of the poppy. Neither of the Dornishmen had offered any resistance. Archibald Yronwood had been cradling his prince's scorched and smoking body when the Brazen Beasts had found him, as his burned hands could testify. He had used them to beat out the flames that had engulfed Quentyn Martell. Gerris Drinkwater was standing over them with sword in hand, but he had dropped the blade the moment the locusts had appeared. "They share a cell. At his command, Quentyn Martell had been laid out in the queen's own bed. He had been a knight, and a prince of Dorne besides. It seemed only kind to let him die in the bed he had crossed half a world to reach. The bedding was ruined—sheets, covers, pillows, mattress, all reeked of blood and smoke, but Ser Barristan thought Daenerys would forgive him. Missandei sat at the bedside. She had been with the prince night and day, tending to such needs as he could express, giving him water and milk of the poppy when he was strong enough to drink, listening to the few tortured words he gasped out from time to time, reading to him when he fell quiet, sleeping in her chair beside him. Ser Barristan had asked some of the queen's cupbearers to help, but the sight of the burned man was too much for even the boldest of them. And the Blue Graces had never come, though he'd sent for them four times. Perhaps the last of them had been carried off by the pale mare by now The body was removed when he came back: By the time the old knight returned to the queen's rooms atop the pyramid, Prince Quentyn's corpse had been removed. So what happened to Quentyn's mask? I checked back in the Dragontamer chapter and all but one person wore a mask. Pretty Meris was not wearing a mask: Five wore the cloaks and masks of Brazen Beasts, but Pretty Meris had not troubled to disguise herself. "Where is your lord?" he asked Meris. "I have no lord," she answered. "If you mean your fellow prince, he is near, with fifty men. Pretty Meris and Quentyn look very different and on glance I would imagine Barristan would know the difference. But he may have only seen the body after it was already placed on the bed and a partial skull left for a face. As for Pretty Meris' fate, Barristan remarks they have the Windblown however he doesn't specify which he has. There is a chance here. "We still have Windblown in the dungeons. Those feigned deserters." "I remember," said Yronwood. "Hungerford, Straw, that lot. Some of them weren't so bad for sellswords. Others, well, might be they could stand a bit of dying. What of them?" Arch says that Tatters will give them to Pretty Meris, but again this is Arch talking and this may be a lie. Ser Archibald grimaced. "Rags and Tatters is more like to give the two of us to Pretty Meris. He won't do it." During the dragon pit scene, Viserion had separated Quentyn and Drinkwater then he heard Pretty Meris say step aside: Pretty Meris was screaming at someone to step aside. Then she pulled back: The other Windblown were pulling back. This was more than even Pretty Meris had the stomach for. I am not sure if Drink or Arch had used Pretty Meris' body instead of Quentyn but I do find it odd that Pretty Meris is the only one without a mask in the pit and the body shows no sign melted brass.
  6. I would go on a rampage and kill every Lannister until they kill me.
  7. coincidence or am I on to something? if you take Mellario and Lemore and cross out the double letters you get Elia. o.o
  8. Ok well I’m going to take a shot at some unconventional opinions I have: - Rhaegar having Jon with Lyanna completed a self fulfilling prophecy and instead brought destruction. - Varys hatched his plot to destroy the Lannisters during the sack of King’s Landing and found his tool for a civil war with Joffrey’s birth. - Lemore’s child was switched with Aegon. This is the reason Lemore has stretch marks but no child and the reason Aegon was only switched. - “Serra” is actually Elissa Farman, whom Illyrio inherited the dragon eggs from. “Serra’s hands” may actually refer to Elissa’a fate. I think Elissa eventually contracted greyscale and went to Asshai to look for a cure. This is the reason her ship was last seen there.
  9. I think it was actually very similar to the switch at the Wall. I believe the “Gilly” in this scenario would be Septa Lemore. If Septa Lemore was the wet nurse for Aegon (Elia was noted as having small breasts) then it would mean there would be another infant roughly the same age as Aegon and she does have stretch marks indicating pregnancy. I think she switched her child with Aegon, this would also explain why only one child was switched and Elia protecting the baby as the child would be familiar to her.
  10. Could you tell me what is straw man about the argument. Is not the fake Aegon Blackfyre theory means Varys/Illyrio raises a person who is really a Blackfyre as Aegon. Then ends up ruling as Aegon, not as a Blackfyre and Varys/Illyrio not telling him he’s a Blackfyre. Which begs the question of why even make Aegon fake, when if he’s real it still makes sense without making the storyline complicated. i don’t get it, are you saying he killed in this manner to mimic the kids death to throw off Cersei only? Even if he done it for this reason only, it still does not prove Aegon is fake, he could still do this even if Aegon is real. we don’t have much information from Varys time during Aerys reign. He seemed to not care for Rhaegar but we don’t know how he felt towards Elia. Perhaps, he felt that his council was rejected and lead to their horrible deaths and feels guilt. He also always talked about Rhaenys and Aegon in a sad or deep tone. Elia found Tyrion cute and was described as having sweet wit, perhaps Varys and her got along. We also don’t know Elia’s mother’s consort, who may be related. We just don’t know yet. Thats really not the argument, Aegon and Rhaenys are just two people he cares for and others not. Going by your example, Cat treating Jon bad would mean that she was a bad mother for her children or would not be able to empathize with Brienne. i don’t think the same thing applies to Varys, I think it only applies to some scenarios. Varys was able to listen to the council meeting undetected, and had kids hidden in the chambers, I am pretty sure he would know if there are others around. Also, if he wasn’t sure of the ears around him then he shouldn’t have said anything, which Varys should know.
  11. I am thinking there may be a Martell connection with Varys and Illyrio as they seem to favor Aegon and Rhaenys. The rulers in Dorne do take Essosi partners, perhaps Illyrio or Varys are related to Elia. Also, we don’t know the consort of Elia’s mother, could the consort be related to Illyrio?
  12. He could be but I really can’t tell what his background is. I think the bigger question for me is what connection does Varys and Illyrio have with Rhaenys and Aegon (both). Could it just be guilt or something more? Illyrio seems to be very knowledgeable about westeros especially during Aerys time as a foreigner. I think he may have lived in westeros during Aerys reign for a time.
  13. Not only that but his story of her hand in his home could not be true as the hand would carry greyscale. He also had offered Tyrion to visit the prince’s menagerie meaning he was not barred from the palace
  14. This is a great point, I can definitely see this happening
  15. Alright I give you two scenarios: Varys raises a fake Aegon to get power for the Blackfyres then teaches this fake Aegon that he is Aegon but really not and will not tell the Fake Aegon that he is really a Blackfyre. And these Blackfyres hate the Lannisters instead of the Martells and Targs. Then has Pycelle die of blunt force trauma and has Kevan stabbed multiple times while holding a crossbow for shits and giggles because he doesn’t care about the children. or Varys has the real Aegon, raises him, and wants him to take his rightful throne. Killed Kevan and Pycelle in this manner as revenge for Rhaenys and the pisswater prince. which one makes more sense? i don’t think it takes much for Cersei to go off and in fact she’ll probably finger Tyrion, Tyrells, and Dorne for this, even Varys says so. I don’t think he cares to control her reaction as long as it’s not rational. we don’t know what happened during the sack regarding the child’s possible swap. No point in trying to speculate, GRRM has not given this information for a reason. However we can’t deny supporting arguments for either one as either possibility could be true. I didn’t know you were allowed to only have one secret prince in a story and are we sure Jon will take the title as Prince? I am not familiar with War of the Roses but I doubt GRRM will take everything from war of the roses, I did not make an argument that Varys cared for children, I said he cared for only Rhaenys and Aegon, he is indifferent towards others. So because LF doesn’t know who’s around him to listen, this somehow applies to Varys? Why even tell Kevan about Aegon then?
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