Heresy 199 Once upon a Time in the West

[Brad Stark]

1 minute ago, JNR said:

I'd go even further; I don't think most online fans are even aware of them.  But the problems are many and spectacular.

Most of GRRM's fans, of course, aren't on the forums at all... and probably still do not even realize Jon's parentage might be a mystery other than "Who is his mother?" 

If you keep posting that problems exist without posting what the problems are, we can't be aware of them.

[Melifeather]

8 minutes ago, JNR said:

I'd go even further; I don't think most online fans are even aware of them.  But the problems are many and spectacular.

Most of GRRM's fans, of course, aren't on the forums at all... and probably still do not even realize Jon's parentage might be a mystery other than "Who is his mother?" 

I have an aunt like this, and I enjoyed walking her through a couple of different theories.

What's the connection to iron?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.  Dawn was Dayne's sword, and it was forged from meteoric iron.

I was just making a distinction between a penis "sword" versus a metal one. Because the spattering could signify death by childbirth, but I believe her death was by a metal sword. And I've got to throw this out the observation that I don't know of any woman that would have given birth in a full length gown, especially if you're trying to convince me that a C-section occurred. GRRM is no prude. If a woman gave birth and needed a C-section, Theon would have seen a naked woman with an incision in her abdomen. He didn't recall a dress torn in any manner, just the blood spattering. And didn't he see her weeping blood? So a visual of blood running down her face, which sounds more like the injury Myrcella took.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

I disagree. The author is pointing out that whereas with other parentaage genetic traits are passed down from both sides with Robert Baratheon this does not appear to be the case.

There are no know offspring of Robert that aren't black haired. It is proven in the books that the lannister kids are not his.

Robert is not Cat and vice versa and the fact that Cats children have mixed traits strengthens rather than weakens the point about Roberts.

In terms Of The seed is strong it surely means the genetics which meas both the black hair and general robustness for which Robert is famed.  No reason to infer it means one and not the other when every single known bastard has Black hair regardless Of The other parental hair colour.

Mixed???Cat has 5 kids for Ned."1" count em "1"  of those children of them looks like him.That isn't a mix.That's 1 in 5.4 are said to have Tully looks,not mixed traits.4 are said to look Tully per Cat.So noooo.

You miss the point Cat made and what GRRM alluded to.Cat was correct the Blondie not looking like Robert doesn't mean they aren't.As in the case with her kids for Ned.

As GRRM states some people tend to be superstitious.They don't about DNA and genes.

So Jon doesn't need to have black hair or blue eyes.He could have just gotten strength just as A hidden got Florent ears.

Again every known bastard has the hair,eyes of varying degrees of blues AND they are described as strong.

No where is it claimed by Ned or anyone that Robert "cannot" have kids that don't differ.It would be a stupid thing to say.Especially in light of the author having a character that understands that means nothing.The fact that the Blondies turned out to not be his was because Cersie cheated.

If Stannis didn't raise doubt no one wouldn't have cared.They just assume it looked like the other parent a reasonable assumption.

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

 If you think she either literally died, or had an orgasm in that scene, I'm afraid the burden of proof is definitely on you.  

Though that second possibility would definitely help explain her fascination with dueling in her teens...

I see, in your fervent (not to mention a tad facetious and obviously futile) quest to purge GRRM's language of all ambiguity, and despite dangling such far-fangled frenchified figurative notions as the petite mort in front of us, you are not even willing to admit the existence of the double entendre as a literary device?  Now we are arguing about whether a fictional character literally had an orgasm or not -- has it come to that!  Burden of proof?  Only Brienne will ever really know how her first experience at the pointy end of Jaime's legendary sword came or went!  Given that the event was reported solely from Jaime's POV, however, we can only conclude that from his perspective he found the whole 'rumpy pumpy' romp in the woods very satisfying...(well, to be exact, until they were rudely interrupted by the Mummers who put a damper on things). 

 

 

Charles Dance asks, 'Do you want a regular vanilla relationship...'

And so I ask you JNR, 'Do you want a regular vanilla text..?'

 

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

If you keep posting that problems exist without posting what the problems are, we can't be aware of them.

Well, I have repeatedly for years and years now.  I really thought every regular Heretic knew that stuff.

Here's a short list of problems that are routinely ignored:

1. In any scenario where Lyanna voluntarily ran away with Rhaegar, it's very difficult to imagine she never once tried to communicate with her family, all through the war: "Hi, it's me, and I'm not dead or raped."  But we're supposed to believe that she just never thought of that.

2. Or, if she did communicate, it's very difficult to imagine nobody in canon has ever said a thing along such lines, or did a thing with that info as a result.  If she had sent a raven to Ned, for instance, who arrived at Winterfell months after she disappeared, then we would certainly expect Ned to have told Robert, and some sort of action taken as a result (because Robert was fanatical on this topic).  There is no such reference.

3. It's also very hard to believe that after Rhaegar's father burned her father alive and had her brother Brandon strangled, her response was... to have sex with Rhaegar so often, she then got knocked up.  I mean, even if she doesn't in any way blame Rhaegar, a truly remarkable gesture on her part, isn't she worried their baby will inherit Targ insanity -- like its grandfather has just overwhelmingly demonstrated?  Isn't she worried Rhaegar himself will go insane as he ages (since Aerys wasn't remotely as insane in his youth)?  A friend of mine has a nine year old daughter who said "If I were Lyanna I would have slept with one eye open," and I laughed.

4. Sometimes this is all handwaved away: "The ToJ was off the raven network and she just had no idea any of it was ever happening."  Well, the premise that Lyanna would have had zero interest in the outside world -- no family, friends, nothing, for months and months -- is again just not at all plausible.  Try taking a cellphone away from a teen girl for one week and see how she responds!

I could easily write another ten such problems.  But you know what... in a while this post will be forgotten, just like all the earlier ones were, and some newbie will say "JNR, you know what?  You've never listed any problems with RLJ."  

So why I bothered doing this yet again is not clear to me.    Just a habit, I suppose.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Theon would have seen a naked woman with an incision in her abdomen. He didn't recall a dress torn in any manner, just the blood spattering.

He would if he were like Bran looking at a weirwood vision.  That's a factual representation of reality.

But it was a dream, and as GRRM has told us outright, our dreams are not always literal.  He also saw her wearing, in addition to the gown, the crown of blue roses, and I'd bet money that wasn't on Lyanna's head when and if she gave birth or was subsequently sick.

So there's a connection in Theon's dreaming mind between the crown of roses, the gown, Lyanna, and her being spattered with gore -- but what sort of connection, we don't yet know.

Perhaps it wasn't a C-section; perhaps it only represented her guilt over the bloodshed she perceived herself as having helped create in the Rebellion.  It's impossible to know yet.  I only suggest that gore would fit a C-section a lot better than it would fit a traditional birth that led to a bacterial infection.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

10 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Mixed???Cat has 5 kids for Ned."1" count em "1"  of those children of them looks like him.That isn't a mix.That's 1 in 5.4 are said to have Tully looks,not mixed traits.4 are said to look Tully per Cat.So noooo.

You miss the point Cat made and what GRRM alluded to

I didn't miss the point, we just disagree, my disagreeing with you isn't the same as me not understanding.

4/1 is objectively a mix no matter what the ratio the sample size is small. Compare is to 16/0 for Robert (admire we dont get to see all 16 to verify)  + all of The historical births as described in the book the End researches.

Jon looking like a Stark and being recognised as a Stark by Craster, Qhorin and others north Of The wall is highly suggestive of him having at least one Stark Parent be that Lyanna or Ne.or someone else entirely. There is little to suggest the other parent is Robert Baratheon given what we know about his clearly dominant gene pool (16/0 + history) Vs Neds clearly recessive Gene pool (4/1).

[Brad Stark]

32 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, I have repeatedly for years and years now.  I really thought every regular Heretic knew that stuff.

Here's a short list of problems that are routinely ignored:

1. In any scenario where Lyanna voluntarily ran away with Rhaegar, it's very difficult to imagine she never once tried to communicate with her family, all through the war: "Hi, it's me, and I'm not dead or raped."  But we're supposed to believe that she just never thought of that.

2. Or, if she did communicate, it's very difficult to imagine nobody in canon has ever said a thing along such lines, or did a thing with that info as a result.  If she had sent a raven to Ned, for instance, who arrived at Winterfell months after she disappeared, then we would certainly expect Ned to have told Robert, and some sort of action taken as a result (because Robert was fanatical on this topic).  There is no such reference.

3. It's also very hard to believe that after Rhaegar's father burned her father alive and had her brother Brandon strangled, her response was... to have sex with Rhaegar so often, she then got knocked up.  I mean, even if she doesn't in any way blame Rhaegar, a truly remarkable gesture on her part, isn't she worried their baby will inherit Targ insanity -- like its grandfather has just overwhelmingly demonstrated?  Isn't she worried Rhaegar himself will go insane as he ages (since Aerys wasn't remotely as insane in his youth)?  A friend of mine has a nine year old daughter who said "If I were Lyanna I would have slept with one eye open," and I laughed.

4. Sometimes this is all handwaved away: "The ToJ was off the raven network and she just had no idea any of it was ever happening."  Well, the premise that Lyanna would have had zero interest in the outside world -- no family, friends, nothing, for months and months -- is again just not at all plausible.  Try taking a cellphone away from a teen girl for one week and see how she responds!

I could easily write another ten such problems.  But you know what... in a while this post will be forgotten, just like all the earlier ones were, and some newbie will say "JNR, you know what?  You've never listed any problems with RLJ."  

So why I bothered doing this yet again is not clear to me.    Just a habit, I suppose.

1 my theory is that the Starks knew Lyanna wanted to be with Rhaegar.  Brandon didn't approve and got mad.  He clearly didn't know where to look but that isn't much surprise if she didn't want to be found.  

2 it isn't surprising at all details aren't given in canon, the same could be said for any other theory 

3 She could have been knocked up before Brandon was killed or before she found out.  She wouldn't be the first teenager to sleep with someone less mentally stable than would make a good father.

4 No one said Lyanna had no friends.  Ashara would be a good candidate for that role, but we don't know.  Someone besides Howland certainly could come forward and explain what happened.  RLJ implies Lyanna didn't want Robert to know Rheagar was involved, so anyone who knows has a reason not to say.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

I disagree. The author is pointing out that whereas with other parentaage genetic traits are passed down from both sides with Robert Baratheon this does not appear to be the case.

There are no know offspring of Robert that aren't black haired. It is proven in the books that the lannister kids are not his.

Robert is not Cat and vice versa and the fact that Cats children have mixed traits strengthens rather than weakens the point about Roberts.

In terms Of The seed is strong it surely means the genetics which meas both the black hair and general robustness for which Robert is famed.  No reason to infer it means one and not the other when every single known bastard has Black hair regardless Of The other parental hair colour.

More to the point I think, is that while the science is dodgy, it is an established and indeed vitally important plot device that Trouserless Bob's offspring are identified by this [and consequently those who are not his children identified as cuckoos by the lack of those features] and therefore hiding an unexpected child by giving him non-Baratheon markers is well dodgy.

[Black Crow]

52 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, I have repeatedly for years and years now.  I really thought every regular Heretic knew that stuff.

Here's a short list of problems that are routinely ignored:

1. In any scenario where Lyanna voluntarily ran away with Rhaegar, it's very difficult to imagine she never once tried to communicate with her family, all through the war: "Hi, it's me, and I'm not dead or raped."  But we're supposed to believe that she just never thought of that.

2. Or, if she did communicate, it's very difficult to imagine nobody in canon has ever said a thing along such lines, or did a thing with that info as a result.  If she had sent a raven to Ned, for instance, who arrived at Winterfell months after she disappeared, then we would certainly expect Ned to have told Robert, and some sort of action taken as a result (because Robert was fanatical on this topic).  There is no such reference.

3. It's also very hard to believe that after Rhaegar's father burned her father alive and had her brother Brandon strangled, her response was... to have sex with Rhaegar so often, she then got knocked up.  I mean, even if she doesn't in any way blame Rhaegar, a truly remarkable gesture on her part, isn't she worried their baby will inherit Targ insanity -- like its grandfather has just overwhelmingly demonstrated?  Isn't she worried Rhaegar himself will go insane as he ages (since Aerys wasn't remotely as insane in his youth)?  A friend of mine has a nine year old daughter who said "If I were Lyanna I would have slept with one eye open," and I laughed.

4. Sometimes this is all handwaved away: "The ToJ was off the raven network and she just had no idea any of it was ever happening."  Well, the premise that Lyanna would have had zero interest in the outside world -- no family, friends, nothing, for months and months -- is again just not at all plausible.  Try taking a cellphone away from a teen girl for one week and see how she responds!

I could easily write another ten such problems.  But you know what... in a while this post will be forgotten, just like all the earlier ones were, and some newbie will say "JNR, you know what?  You've never listed any problems with RLJ."  

So why I bothered doing this yet again is not clear to me.    Just a habit, I suppose.

There are problems of course, but whether we need to question them, ie; whether GRRM has actually bothered to think them through or consider them relevant may be another matter.

If we turn for a moment to the highly significant Bael story, the Bard abducts the Lord Stark's daughter and they hide in the Winterfell crypts for a year and a day before the daughter and the babe return.

We've had a lot of fun speculating over the years as to how this was managed - a Black Gate style portal into Faerie being the favourite - but by comparison, the hiding of R+L=J for a year and a day pales into insignificance.

[Brad Stark]

It seems clear to me GRRM intends the reader to believe RJL.  That doesn't imply it is true, the biggest problem I've seen is it is too obvious, it could be misdirection.  Agatha Christie wants us to believe someone is a murder, but that is redirection.  It certainly would be less obvious reading the series start to finish without years or decades waiting for the next book.

Besides RLJ, we have some evidence for Ned + Ashara.   It is hinted they liked eachother and she got pregnant and died at times inline with when Jon was born.  Why isn't anyone running with this instead of Robert?

Having Ned be the father would be the ultimate redirection. 

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, I have repeatedly for years and years now.  I really thought every regular Heretic knew that stuff.

Here's a short list of problems that are routinely ignored:

1. In any scenario where Lyanna voluntarily ran away with Rhaegar, it's very difficult to imagine she never once tried to communicate with her family, all through the war: "Hi, it's me, and I'm not dead or raped."  But we're supposed to believe that she just never thought of that.

Do we ever learn how Ned knew to go to the TOJ? Might that imply some communication (genuine question, I've just come back to the books after 2 years and can't recall).

I think the fact that if she had run off with Rhaegar and was knocked up by him that would give at least 1 plausible scenario as to why she might not communicate. There is more than one scene in relation to Cersei's children where it's made clear that if Robert knew he was not the father he would have them killed. Reasonable to apply the same logic to Lyanna even though he wasnt in formal relationship with Lyanna he at least in part went to war for her.

As any dad will tell you a mothers love and protectiveness towards her children far outweighs anything she will ever feel for friend, family or husband. If communication meant the death of her child that's certainly 1 viable reason for no communication.

 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

On 6/9/2017 at 8:44 PM, Matthew. said:

ADWD introduces the notion that Aegon VI was swapped with another baby, and smuggled out of Westeros. So, assuming he isn't a fake, we might also conclude that Rhaegar had ordered the KG to be there because this was Rhaegar's conspiracy to protect his son (TPTWP, mind you!) from potential disaster if the rebellion went poorly, and from Aerys.

Reasonably, House Dayne could have been involved in that conspiracy...

Would not surprise me a bit to discover (in the end) that the KG were escorting young Aegon to safety by way of Dorne... per orders... and that they fought Ned to protect either the child, or knowledge that the child had survived.

Young Aegon provides a much, much better explanation for a KG presence, than does Jon Snow. 

Though possibly Jon Snow was nearby... and we're looking at some sort of Life of Brian situation? 

 

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Do we ever learn how Ned knew to go to the TOJ? Might that imply some communication (genuine question, I've just back to the books after 2 years and can't recall).

I think the fact that if she had run off with Rhaegar and was knocked up by him that would give at least 1 plausible scenario as to why she might not communicate. There is more than one scene in relation to Cersei children where it's made clear that if Robert knew he was not the father would have them killed. Reasonable to apply the same logic to Luanna even though he was in formal relationship with Lyanna he at least in part went to war for her.

As any dad will tell you a mothers love and protectiveness towards her children far outweighs anything she will ever feel other friend, family or husband. If communication meant the death of her child that's certainly 1 viable reason for no communication.

 

No, all we've got is the dream and the catalogue of places where he had expected to see them, hence one reason for suggesting that he met them there by appointment rather than tracked them down.

Learning that they were somewhere civilised, such as Starfall, just for the sake of argument would be a lot more plausible than than finding them under the third rock from the left.

Notwithstanding the various places they weren't, its worth observing that Lord Eddard may not have been actively hunting them. After all, Hightower, so far as we know, had no involvement in the abduction of Lyanna. The whole business may therefore have been accidental. Lord Eddard is engaged in mopping up the last Targaryen forces; learns of the KIng's Guard and only then [and perhaps even from Ser Arthur Dayne's dying lips] that his long lost sister is still alive and at...

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Here's a short list of problems that are routinely ignored:

This is not a list of problems with the theory, so much as an articulation of why you, personally, do not find a particular permutation of the premise "RLJ" believable--in this case, a permutation where Lyanna is a willing participant in her own disappearance, is well-informed, and has not yet been impregnated at the time that she learns Brandon and Rickard are dead.

The problem is that none of the above is necessary for the premise of RLJ, which seems to be a persistent problem in attempts at RLJ criticism; for example, people often go down the road of "Jon is the hidden heir, and the hidden heir trope is bad," but it's not actually necessary for Jon to be in the line of succession - or for Rhaegar and Lyanna to be married - for RLJ to be true.

If we want to actually demonstrate the flaws of the theory, we must be willing to look at the idea in its most abstract, rather than arguing against various concrete interpretations.

In the abstract, there are only two necessary assumptions for RLJ: That Rhaegar Targaryen could have impregnated Lyanna Stark, and that the child he impregnated her with is Jon Snow. The former premise is easily plausible within the text, so only the latter is a contradictory assumption, in the sense that it goes against the idea that Eddard is Jon's father--a flaw that will be true of every Lyanna + X scenario.

To return to the stated criticisms, it's worth observing:
-Lyanna may have legitimately been abducted
-Her and Rhaegar's access to information may have been highly limited if the whole point was that they wanted to be hard to find
-If they had access to information, it was likely coming from Rhaegar's allies, which means Lyanna only knows as much as Rhaegar is willing to share
-If she learned something that disturbed her and she started getting cold feet, she might have gone from being a hostage in rumor to a hostage in truth--especially if she was pregnant

The point of all of this being that the problem with RLJ is primarily one of missing details, a problem that (again) applies to all Lyanna+X theories. There are a great deal of questions that need to be answered, and it may be that GRRM cannot answer them to every readers satisfaction. For example:
 

3 hours ago, JNR said:

4. Sometimes this is all handwaved away: "The ToJ was off the raven network and she just had no idea any of it was ever happening."  Well, the premise that Lyanna would have had zero interest in the outside world -- no family, friends, nothing, for months and months -- is again just not at all plausible.  Try taking a cellphone away from a teen girl for one week and see how she responds!

To me, the notion that they were off the raven network, and that their information was weeks (or months!) out of date is not only plausible, but would make sense if they're defying the wishes of their respective families, and strongly desire to not be found. 

This doesn't really make the case that RLJ is flawed, it makes the case that there are a lot of ways in which the author might disappoint you 

[Lord Wraith]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

I'd go even further; I don't think most online fans are even aware of them.  But the problems are many and spectacular.

Most of GRRM's fans, of course, aren't on the forums at all... and probably still do not even realize Jon's parentage might be a mystery other than "Who is his mother?" 

I have an aunt like this, and I enjoyed walking her through a couple of different theories.

Indeed because I feel that the RLJ Truthers are so virulent and unwilling to hear anything else on these forums. These threads are the exception of course. Too many Grey sheep.

[Matthew.]

48 minutes ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Do we ever learn how Ned knew to go to the TOJ? Might that imply some communication (genuine question, I've just come back to the books after 2 years and can't recall).

I threw my theory about this out on the first page, but I'll attempt a TL;DR summary:

-Eddard may have had an established relationship with House Dayne after the tournament at Harrenhal
-Ashara Dayne was a companion of Elia at King's Landing (according to GRRM)
-House Dayne may have been involved in whatever conspiracies Rhaegar was engaged in during his absence

Thus, assuming Ashara had any servants present at King's Landing - guards, maids, her own lady companions - there may have been someone present that trusted Eddard enough to pass the information that prompted his trip to Dorne: information about Lyanna's location, information about Arthur Dayne's location, information that his bastard was about to be born at Starfall, etc.

IMO, Eddard knew exactly where he was going and what he would find, and he made a deliberate choice to bring only those that he trusted. 

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There are problems of course, but whether we need to question them, ie; whether GRRM has actually bothered to think them through or consider them relevant may be another matter.

This is my line of thinking, which is what I was getting at with the above example of how informed Lyanna may or may not have been during her absence; certain readers will look at the text, and ask those questions, but did GRRM himself bother to consider those questions?

Personally, I think GRRM hasn't planned all of this stuff out to nearly the level of detail that some readers might hope - as reflected by the snail's pace at which new volumes are being released - and is just taking it as a given that certain unanswered questions won't be relevant to the vast majority of readers. To the rest, he'll offer up improvised, semi-flippant answers at some future Q&A, as he always does. 

[JNR]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I see, in your fervent (not to mention a tad facetious and obviously futile) quest to purge GRRM's language of all ambiguity, and despite dangling such far-fangled frenchified figurative notions as the petite mort in front of us, you are not even willing to admit the existence of the double entendre as a literary device?

Actually, la petite mort would be a double entrendre; that's why I suggested it. But Brienne never has any orgasms that we've heard of.  Nor any literal deaths.  She just doesn't fit the premise, because swordplay is not orgasm and it's not death either.

Hey, if people like the idea that freckles = death in these books, that's cool with me.  Similarly, if I say "But there are all these freckled people who don't die in any conceivable sense," that should be cool with them.

Re ambiguity... I'm the guy who keeps saying GRRM's books are loaded with ambiguity.  You're the guy who has a theory about ancient and original Others, never yet seen in canon, who will reveal themselves with ice spiders. 

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

She could have been knocked up before Brandon was killed

Well, if so, that would violate conventional RLJ... in the timeline of which Brandon gets killed some three months or more before she got knocked up... and hence would be a bigger problem than it's trying to solve, if the idea is to support RLJ.

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

whether GRRM has actually bothered to think them through or consider them relevant may be another matter

That's true, he may simply have screwed up. 

However, conventional RLJ constantly assumes he did not screw up.  See above answer, about the detailed timeline in which among other things, RLJ true believers are sure that Lyanna became knocked up three months into the war, that Jon was born around the time of the Sack, that all characters acted at all times based on information available to them then, etc.

In short, the theory of RLJ is founded on the idea that GRRM went about things carefully and only rarely made mistakes.   And in that, I actually think they're quite right! 

1 hour ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

I think the fact that if she had run off with Rhaegar and was knocked up by him that would give at least 1 plausible scenario as to why she might not communicate.

Well, bear in mind we're going by the RLJ timeline here.  It says:

1. She and Rhaegar disappear

2. Time passes, as Brandon and Rickard both travel to the Red Keep (Brandon far more quickly), and then Brandon and Rickard are killed

3. More time passes as Aerys calls for Ned and Robert, and Arryn calls banners.  The Rebellion begins.

4. At this time, Ned begins slowly to make his way to Winterfell to call his own banners... eventually proceeding over the mountains and across the Bite and across the North and finally getting home

5. About this time, finally! -- Lyanna becomes knocked up -- fully three months into the war -- so that Jon can be born nine months later, when the war has raged for about a year, and ends in the Sack.  Ergo the firm RLJ belief that Jon was born about the time of the Sack.

So, unless we imagine that Lyanna is totally incommunicado with the entire world, and oblivious to all that is going on, by her own design... she had several months to learn about Aerys, her father, and her brother.  And if she still chose to get knocked up at that time, just dismissing the many huge problems with that idea, I would be, let's just say, quite surprised.  I think highly of Lyanna's brainpower.

Of course, like some, we can just throw realism to the winds, and imagine Lyanna had interest only in hiding from the world with Rhaegar, and all she did for six months or more was immerse herself in constant love and sex, never once thinking of anything else... never communicating with anyone... etc.  Of course we can.

If we do, though, I think that would be what Wolfmaid would call, quite righly, a Disney fairy tale.  It's even mocked as such in ACOK:

Quote

"Is it love you fancy?" He'd decided that he liked this wench, whoever she was; her sharp wit was a welcome respite from the damp gloom of Pyke. "Shall I name my longship after you, and play you the high harp, and keep you in a tower room in my castle with only jewels to wear, like a princess in a song?"

Perhaps GRRM has actually written such a fairy tale/song.  It could be. 

Or perhaps, as he constantly reminds us, life is not a song.  

I side with Wolfmaid in believing (among many other things) that the fairy tale is just not even close to GRRM's style, and in believing that TWOW will tell us something much more plausible and fitting.

[Melifeather]

28 minutes ago, JNR said:

5. About this time, finally! -- Lyanna becomes knocked up -- fully three months into the war -- so that Jon can be born nine months later, when the war has raged for about a year, and ends in the Sack.  Ergo the firm RLJ belief that Jon was born about the time of the Sack.

Um...I'm sure people will correct me if I'm wrong, but Jon's birthday cannot be confirmed with absolute certainty. All we have to go by is that Dany was born roughly 9 months after Jon, and that bastards grow up faster than trueborn children. Jon very well could be older than Robb and Maester Luwin just told Cat that bastards grow up faster so that she wouldn't freak out any more than she already has about Jon. Old-gods forbid that he's not only Ned's son, but that he is the elder one too.

4 hours ago, JNR said:

He would if he were like Bran looking at a weirwood vision.  That's a factual representation of reality.

But it was a dream, and as GRRM has told us outright, our dreams are not always literal.  He also saw her wearing, in addition to the gown, the crown of blue roses, and I'd bet money that wasn't on Lyanna's head when and if she gave birth or was subsequently sick.

So there's a connection in Theon's dreaming mind between the crown of roses, the gown, Lyanna, and her being spattered with gore -- but what sort of connection, we don't yet know.

Perhaps it wasn't a C-section; perhaps it only represented her guilt over the bloodshed she perceived herself as having helped create in the Rebellion.  It's impossible to know yet.  I only suggest that gore would fit a C-section a lot better than it would fit a traditional birth that led to a bacterial infection.

So let me get this straight. Symbolism is OK if it suits your interpretation, but not mine?

I had suggested upthread that only Ned and Theon saw "blue" roses, that it doesn't necessarily mean that the actual crown was made of blue ones, and that the blue color symbolizes death.

Why would Theon dream of Lyanna? IMO it makes more sense that the dream was sent by a greenseer, since it's I theorize that Bloodraven is manipulating people via the use of dreams.

1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Would not surprise me a bit to discover (in the end) that the KG were escorting young Aegon to safety by way of Dorne... per orders... and that they fought Ned to protect either the child, or knowledge that the child had survived.

Young Aegon provides a much, much better explanation for a KG presence, than does Jon Snow. 

Though possibly Jon Snow was nearby... and we're looking at some sort of Life of Brian situation? 

 

Oh Lordy, look who's back! Long time no see!