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NBA 2017: Fleecing the East

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Im might be in the minority, well im sure i am, but i like the Rose signing. I think you unload Irving to someone for a two-way shooter and some picks and role players. I think Rose, if healthy, could fit in well with James and Love. I never seen it coming, but i like it. And, i think there's an opportunity here to improve the Cavs. And, that sounds crazy, but i feel its possible, even likely possible if they get the right deal for Kyrie.

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11 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Im might be in the minority, well im sure i am, but i like the Rose signing. I think you unload Irving to someone for a two-way shooter and some picks and role players. I think Rose, if healthy, could fit in well with James and Love. I never seen it coming, but i like it. And, i think there's an opportunity here to improve the Cavs. And, that sounds crazy, but i feel its possible, even likely possible if they get the right deal for Kyrie.

He can't shoot.  So no, he does not fit in with LeBron.  LeBron wants people who can shoot.

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He can play D. And the have plenty of shooters and can get more for Kyrie. Dont count out D-Rose, this might be what he needs to get his game going again. 

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Derrick Rose is terrible. Like a net negative to a basketball team. This will play out like all the other burnt out vets Cleveeland has tried to resurrect.

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10 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Im might be in the minority, well im sure i am, but i like the Rose signing. I think you unload Irving to someone for a two-way shooter and some picks and role players. I think Rose, if healthy, could fit in well with James and Love. I never seen it coming, but i like it. And, i think there's an opportunity here to improve the Cavs. And, that sounds crazy, but i feel its possible, even likely possible if they get the right deal for Kyrie.

Depending on who they get back for him, Rose might end up starting

And possibly he has a bounce back season. It is his last chance IMO.

But it doesn't look good right now, it looks like he really is a shell of the player he was.

Critical for the Cavs to get a really good player back in return for Irving, or 2 or 3. Scenario of Irving staying has pretty much been ruled out.

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55 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

Critical for the Cavs to get a really good player back in return for Irving, or 2 or 3. Scenario of Irving staying has pretty much been ruled out.

I think it's hilarious that the Cavs think that they're going to get a huge haul in return for Kyrie. The timing of his trade demand makes it nearly impossible for that to happen.

And on that note, I have no idea why people think the Wolves should trade Wiggins for Kyrie. That would be a horrible move, roster construction wise, and IDK why Thibs would want a guy who's defense ranked 440 out of 465 qualifying players. 

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

I think it's hilarious that the Cavs think that they're going to get a huge haul in return for Kyrie. The timing of his trade demand makes it nearly impossible for that to happen.

And on that note, I have no idea why people think the Wolves should trade Wiggins for Kyrie. That would be a horrible move, roster construction wise, and IDK why Thibs would want a guy who's defense ranked 440 out of 465 qualifying players. 

 

Wiggins is an atrocious defender as well, one of the worst in the league. And Kyrie is a much, much better player than Wiggins. Seems like a trade you'd make in a heartbeat if you were Minnesota.

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1 hour ago, sperry said:

 

Wiggins is an atrocious defender as well, one of the worst in the league. And Kyrie is a much, much better player than Wiggins. Seems like a trade you'd make in a heartbeat if you were Minnesota.

And have two starting PGs? Good luck with that. Kyrie and Wiggins offer you basically the same thing, and Wiggins is a much better fit roster wise. Plus he's younger and a wing. It would be really stupid of the Wolves to  swap the two.

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3 hours ago, Calibandar said:

Depending on who they get back for him, Rose might end up starting

And possibly he has a bounce back season. It is his last chance IMO.

But it doesn't look good right now, it looks like he really is a shell of the player he was.

Critical for the Cavs to get a really good player back in return for Irving, or 2 or 3. Scenario of Irving staying has pretty much been ruled out.

We are in total agreement. But, if Rose could bounce back and stay healthy and be 85% of the player he was as a MVP, its a win for the Cavs. Its a long shot, i know. But,  i agree @Tywin et al. that the Cavs are carazy if they think theyll get back anything close to what Kyrie is worth. There best result is a decent two-way wing or for that matter any position would do and some picks.

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3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

And on that note, I have no idea why people think the Wolves should trade Wiggins for Kyrie. That would be a horrible move, roster construction wise, and IDK why Thibs would want a guy who's defense ranked 440 out of 465 qualifying players. 

I make that trade straight up, but I doubt the Cavs would.

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1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I make that trade straight up, but I doubt the Cavs would.

They wouldn't and the Wolves shouldn't either. Again it's about the roster construction. If we didn't sign Teague then sure, you could make a good argument for the trade. But as it stands now it would really mess up the starting lineup.

Also, I don't think it's smart long term. Building a win now roster while sacrificing your future is a bad idea, methinks. Kyrie, Butler and KAT won't get you past the Warriors in the next two years, and there's no guarantee that Kyrie and Butler resign in two years. Personally I think it's smarter to build around the idea of having KAT and Wiggins for at least the next 6 seasons. 

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 I don't know Ty, that seems too juicy to pass up. I doubt it's on the table, but if it is I snap it up if I'm the T-wolves. And i like Wiggins.

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, sperry said:

Wiggins is an atrocious defender as well, one of the worst in the league. And Kyrie is a much, much better player than Wiggins. Seems like a trade you'd make in a heartbeat if you were Minnesota.

Zero chance I would take Wiggins for Irving if I'm the Cavs.  That's an awful, awful trade for them.  Wiggins is not a good player, and he's about to be massively overpaid.  He's also somehow worse than Kyrie on the defensive end, and Kyrie has always been known as a poor defender.  Wiggins gives even less effort defensively than Irving does, and that's saying something.

I'd rather have a potential Suns package of Bledsoe/Jackson/pick (or with Booker in place of Jackson) by far if that were available.  Hell, there are probably a dozen teams that could put together a significantly better trade package for Irving than Minnesota could.  Unless the Cavs are getting back Butler or Towns (both probably not happening, obviously), I have no interest in a deal with the Wolves.  

Also, the Wolves would absolutely, 100% take a deal of Wiggins for Irving in a fucking heartbeat.  Anyone who claims otherwise is delusional.  That would be a huge win for them.

Edited by briantw

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3 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 I don't know Ty, that seems too juicy to pass up. I doubt it's on the table, but if it is I snap it up if I'm the T-wolves. And i like Wiggins.

It makes sense in a vacuum, but once you start looking at all the factors it becomes a bad trade. 

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44 minutes ago, briantw said:

Zero chance I would take Wiggins for Irving if I'm the Cavs.  That's an awful, awful trade for them.  Wiggins is not a good player, and he's about to be massively overpaid.  He's also somehow worse than Kyrie on the defensive end, and Kyrie has always been known as a poor defender.  Wiggins gives even less effort defensively than Irving does, and that's saying something.

What are you talking about? Wiggins is one of the best young players in the league, and he's not nearly as bad on defense as you make him out to be. He's a good one on one defender, and he's spent his entire young career defending the opposing team's best wing. That's nothing to scoff at. What he's bad at is defending off the ball, and he can always improve considering how young he is and who his coach is. Kyrie is a finished product for the most part. You get what you get. And he is truly a dreadful defender. Kyrie gets you points, and that's it. To some extent that's what Wiggins gets you too, but he is a better roster fit at a more valuable position (the NBA is loaded with good PG, and versitile wings are in demand).

Also, Wiggins defensive rankings mainly get killed by advanced analytics. He looks good on the eye test though. 

48 minutes ago, briantw said:

I'd rather have a potential Suns package of Bledsoe/Jackson/pick (or with Booker in place of Jackson) by far if that were available.  Hell, there are probably a dozen teams that could put together a significantly better trade package for Irving than Minnesota could.  Unless the Cavs are getting back Butler or Towns (both probably not happening, obviously), I have no interest in a deal with the Wolves.  

There isn't a GM in the country that would trade KAT for Kyrie. That's a joke. KAT's already a better player, he's 4 years younger, and his ceiling is infinitely higher than Kyrie's. That said, you're right to want a package like the Suns could offer. Problem is, teams are going to be reluctant to give it up considering they're probably viewing Kyrie as a two year rental if you weren't on his list of ideal landing sports. And really, what's a two year rental worth if you're not a good team who doesn't think they can resign him. The team that should actually trade for him is the Knicks. They should consider trading Melo and the rookie from France for Irving and something else. Not the greatest trade for the Cavs, but it would make LeBron happy, which should be priority number one.

52 minutes ago, briantw said:

Also, the Wolves would absolutely, 100% take a deal of Wiggins for Irving in a fucking heartbeat.  Anyone who claims otherwise is delusional.  That would be a huge win for them.

I doubt it. Again, you have to look at how that affects the rest of the roster. They'd go nowhere with Kyrie as their 2 guard. The Teague contract makes it difficult to trade for Kyrie without him being a part of the deal. A deal that actually works for both teams is Kyrie for Teague, the two first round picks they have next year and another player of the Cavs choosing not named KAT, Butler and Wiggins or the 2019 first round pick. 

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

What are you talking about? Wiggins is one of the best young players in the league, and he's not nearly as bad on defense as you make him out to be. He's a good one on one defender, and he's spent his entire young career defending the opposing team's best wing. That's nothing to scoff at. What he's bad at is defending off the ball, and he can always improve considering how young he is and who his coach is. Kyrie is a finished product for the most part. You get what you get. And he is truly a dreadful defender. Kyrie gets you points, and that's it. To some extent that's what Wiggins gets you too, but he is a better roster fit at a more valuable position (the NBA is loaded with good PG, and versitile wings are in demand).

Wiggins was rated as one of the worst defenders in the entire league last year.  538 named him the Least Defensive Player of the Year, and when they ran the math they found out that being guarded by Wiggins is only slightly more difficult than being wide open.

Here's the quote:

  • Possession by possession, there are a few defenders who are as bad as Wiggins. When Wiggins contests a shot, opponents have a 56.1 effective field goal percentage; when they are unguarded, they have a 56.4 eFG percentage. Fundamentally, getting a shot up against Andrew Wiggins is the same as getting an open shot.

Wiggins was ranked 290 in DRPM, 305 in defensive points saved, 234 in FG differential, 288 in on/off differential.  He truly is one of the most atrocious defenders in the entire NBA.  Keep in mind, these numbers were all under Coach Thibs, generally regarded as one of the best defensive coaches in the league.

He's also not one of the best young players in the league.  There are probably thirty guys 25 or under who are better than him, or at least have better long-term outlooks.  All Wiggins is, at his core, is a guy who gets you 20+ relatively inefficient PPG.  He also doesn't rebound well for his size or position and he's not a good passer.

Edited by briantw

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What brian is saying about Wiggins right now is accurate. I do have higher hopes for his long term future. I think there's a chance he can figure it out, and Butler and Thibs should help. But right now Kyrie is miles ahead of him. Also, Wiggins positional value is only a thing if he starts playing some defense. There are plenty of wings who can score inefficiently and can't defend.

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17 minutes ago, sperry said:

What brian is saying about Wiggins right now is accurate. I do have higher hopes for his long term future. I think there's a chance he can figure it out, and Butler and Thibs should help. But right now Kyrie is miles ahead of him. Also, Wiggins positional value is only a thing if he starts playing some defense. There are plenty of wings who can score inefficiently and can't defend.

I'd consider Wiggins starting on the Cavs to be a downgrade from JR Smith right now.  Wiggins is worth more, obviously, but Smith is the player I'd rather have out there if I'm trying to win.  He had a rough regular season last year due to some personal issues, but he plays defense, knows his role, and he's an elite shooter.

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Playing fictional Danny Ainge, I'd offer Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder for Kyrie, but no way the Cavs do business with the Celtics.

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4 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Playing fictional Danny Ainge, I'd offer Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder for Kyrie, but no way the Cavs do business with the Celtics.

If I'm the Cavs, I'd demand at least one good draft pick to go with that package.  They still have a Brooklyn pick or swap, right?

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