215 posts in this topic

On 8/3/2017 at 0:41 AM, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

The Archmaester knows any knowledge Sam gleans from the old scrolls will be put to good use.

Plus, Sam has lots of experiences the other "learned" cannot claim.  (And a child to protect, apparently his own)  He is using all this to his advantage.

Edited by Lee Chapman
Learned needed quotes, it's also a verb

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On 8/3/2017 at 2:42 AM, Gaz0680 said:

Lol fair point. Teleportation seems to be commonplace now.

I have a mostly insupportable theory about that.

Since Westeros has Ravens and all kinds of different magic (a lot of which we probably haven't seen) they have many ways of communicating across great distances.

Surely every major character has spies and or Allies already in place all over Westeros. If they get the message to their stand-in and stand-in takes the place of so-and-so it's just as good as so-and-so being there while so-and- so is not actually there.

But for the purpose of entertainment and exposition replacing stand-in with so-and-so makes expoditious sense instead of explaining All the Above.

(Hopefully I made a little bit of sense there)

Edited by Lee Chapman
A misspell...

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49 minutes ago, Lee Chapman said:

K Harrington explain what his character was thinking there.  Jon had only heard wild rumors about this woman and had absolutely no idea what he was about to see.  That it was a young woman his own age and attractive was simply a total shock to him.

Frankly Kit should know better. The story of the birth of Daenerys Stormborn is common knowledge. He should know she was born towards the end of Robert's rebellion. He should also know that Jon himself was born towards the end of Robert's rebellion. Ergo... they are about the same age. Jon Snow would know that. After 7 years of playing Jon Snow you'd think Kit would be aware that Jon Snow would know that.

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2 hours ago, Super Mario said:

Frankly Kit should know better. The story of the birth of Daenerys Stormborn is common knowledge. He should know she was born towards the end of Robert's rebellion. He should also know that Jon himself was born towards the end of Robert's rebellion. Ergo... they are about the same age. Jon Snow would know that. After 7 years of playing Jon Snow you'd think Kit would be aware that Jon Snow would know that.

Sure, but he also has no idea (so far) who his parents are.  Certainly such an elaborate subterfuge would necessitate a Lot of other dancing around the truth.

He needs to stick to swordplay and military strategy and avoid Rumours about any *cough, cough*  Targaryans.

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4 hours ago, Super Mario said:

Frankly Kit should know better. The story of the birth of Daenerys Stormborn is common knowledge. He should know she was born towards the end of Robert's rebellion. He should also know that Jon himself was born towards the end of Robert's rebellion. Ergo... they are about the same age. Jon Snow would know that. After 7 years of playing Jon Snow you'd think Kit would be aware that Jon Snow would know that.

Apparently, Kit Harrington also knows nothing...

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5 hours ago, nara said:

Apparently, Kit Harrington also knows nothing...

Haha.. clearly.

I mean honestly, after 7 years playing Jon Snow did Kit not read the source material? Being raised in a noble house, Jon would know history and should know the story of Dany's birth. Even if he didn't, upon getting the summons wouldn't he ask his advisors what they knew of her? Certainly some Manderley or Royce, his Hand or Sansa would know the story so her age should be no mystery. As for her beauty? She's a Targ. They are famous for their striking looks. The beauty, the silver hair and often violet eyes. For Kit to assert that Jon is surprised that Dany is young and beautiful is idiotic. 

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Is there some hint or foreshadowing about Sansa in this episode? or a connection to Bran and Littlefinger?

Tyrion -  Sansa is smarter than she lets on                                                                                             Jon  - She is starting to show it

Littlefinger - fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind, everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend, every possible series of events is happening, all at once, live that way and nothing will surprise you, everything that happens will be something that you've seen before..

Bran -  immediately after Littlefinger's everything everywhere speech, Bran states he can see everything everywhere and proves it to Sansa.

 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Dizzy Walker said:

Is there some hint or foreshadowing about Sansa in this episode? or a connection to Bran and Littlefinger?

Tyrion -  Sansa is smarter than she lets on                                                                                             Jon  - She is starting to show it

Littlefinger - fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind, everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend, every possible series of events is happening, all at once, live that way and nothing will surprise you, everything that happens will be something that you've seen before..

Bran -  immediately after Littlefinger's everything everywhere speech, Bran states he can see everything everywhere and proves it to Sansa.

I think Littlefinger will end up exactly as he said he plans, sitting on the iron throne with Sansa at his side.

And then she will give him the stabby-stabby.

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17 hours ago, Dizzy Walker said:

Is there some hint or foreshadowing about Sansa in this episode? or a connection to Bran and Littlefinger?

Tyrion -  Sansa is smarter than she lets on                                                                                             Jon  - She is starting to show it

Littlefinger - fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind, everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend, every possible series of events is happening, all at once, live that way and nothing will surprise you, everything that happens will be something that you've seen before..

Bran -  immediately after Littlefinger's everything everywhere speech, Bran states he can see everything everywhere and proves it to Sansa.

 

 

 

That's a really good point. Maybe littlefinger's weird speech was just foreshadowing how Bran would help her / the North / the realm. If Sansa uses Bran's knowledge, then she'll be one step ahead of everyone (except Bran, obvs.). As well as knowing what people are doing, she'll also be able to get insider info on what makes people tick. Same for Jon & Dany when they all join forces. Although I suppose it's what they do with the knowledge that matters most. As Bran will have seen what happened in the last long night, he should be able to give good counsel as well as info.  Hand of the king in the north?  

It's interesting to see how emotionally detached he's becoming, now that he's seen 'everything'. I know a lot of people didn't like this, but I think it makes sense.  He must be completely overloaded, like someone who is extremely high-functioning multiplied by a billion and he's still only a child. That would surely change you considerably.  Plus, his focus and purpose is now on saving the world and stopping the long night, which will make the family reunions seem less of a huge thing compared to the big picture. Yes, wedding speech was pretty creepy, but was a clear way to show Sansa that everything means 'everything' and he's probably still not mastered the balance between knowing everything and being a dick. His training was pretty limited and cut short after all.

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4 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

It's interesting to see how emotionally detached he's becoming, now that he's seen 'everything'. I know a lot of people didn't like this, but I think it makes sense.  He must be completely overloaded, like someone who is extremely high-functioning multiplied by a billion and he's still only a child. That would surely change you considerably.  Plus, his focus and purpose is now on saving the world and stopping the long night, which will make the family reunions seem less of a huge thing compared to the big picture. Yes, wedding speech was pretty creepy, but was a clear way to show Sansa that everything means 'everything' and he's probably still not mastered the balance between knowing everything and being a dick. His training was pretty limited and cut short after all.

I see Bran as needing time to get things sorted too, but that scene really reminded me of something else... sorry, I am going off the rails here....

I was a big Dune BOOK (not movie) fan a long time ago, on a couch far, far away.  Littlefinger's speech and the way Bran acted with Sansa really reminded of the Paul Muad'dib character from Dune. Paul could see all future possibilities like a spider web. With that knowledge, Paul chose a path and had to make the choices that would cause pain and death of his loved ones and himself, all for the sake of a better future.  When Bran apologized to Sansa for the wedding,  I immediately thought of the Paul character.

 If Bran COULD manipulate the past, maybe he had set a course of events to get the end result of saving Westeros.   Unfortunately that course of events included Sansa having to go thru the wedding. If that was the case, Bran wasn't just trying to console or be supportive, he was actually apologizing to Sansa for making her go thru it. Most people saw creepy, I saw as guilt and dealing with what he had to do to his sister...

what is the point of Bran seeing everything if he can't do anything about it?  What was the point of the Blood raven just watching people? is it too be just like the Maesters, record history and nothing else?

I am wrong, I know, but it's what I first thought when I watched it...

 

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6 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

It's interesting to see how emotionally detached he's becoming, now that he's seen 'everything'. I know a lot of people didn't like this, but I think it makes sense.

No it doesn't.  He was not emotionally blunted nor socially dysfunctional in season 6 episode 6 when he met his uncle Benjen with Meera, at which point he already had all the world's knowledge at his fingertips -- in the short trip from the Wall to Winterfell, he's *somehow* acquired the emotional sensibility of an autist/psychopath?!  I understand that you're buying into D&D's convoluted explanations given in retrospect to fill in the gaps left by their lack of continuity, but the fact remains there's precious little attention paid to logical character development and narrative cohesion.  Let's just enjoy it for what it is, without having to pretend we're watching the unfolding of anything approaching meaningful storytelling anymore!  :cheers:

1 hour ago, Dizzy Walker said:

Littlefinger's speech and the way Bran acted with Sansa really reminded of the Paul Muad'dib character from Dune. Paul could see all future possibilities like a spider web. With that knowledge, Paul chose a path and had to make the choices that would cause pain and death of his loved ones and himself, all for the sake of a better future.  When Bran apologized to Sansa for the wedding,  I immediately thought of the Paul character.

 If Bran COULD manipulate the past, maybe he had set a course of events to get the end result of saving Westeros.   Unfortunately that course of events included Sansa having to go thru the wedding. If that was the case, Bran wasn't just trying to console or be supportive, he was actually apologizing to Sansa for making her go thru it. Most people saw creepy, I saw as guilt and dealing with what he had to do to his sister...

what is the point of Bran seeing everything if he can't do anything about it?  What was the point of the Blood raven just watching people? is it too be just like the Maesters, record history and nothing else?

How interesting -- and great question there at the end!  You're not the only one to have thought of Dune in connection with the greenseers, so I don't think you are 'going off the rails' at all.  Fittingly, even one of my own threads on the book forum is entitled 'the killing word'!

Edited by ravenous reader

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On 4/8/2017 at 10:30 AM, Lee Chapman said:

K Harrington explain what his character was thinking there.  Jon had only heard wild rumors about this woman and had absolutely no idea what he was about to see.  That it was a young woman his own age and attractive was simply a total shock to him.

Good to know what he tried to show.

But it seems his shock face is the same as any other face he does lol.

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On 06/08/2017 at 5:39 PM, ravenous reader said:

No it doesn't.  He was not emotionally blunted nor socially dysfunctional in season 6 episode 6 when he met his uncle Benjen with Meera, at which point he already had all the world's knowledge at his fingertips -- in the short trip from the Wall to Winterfell, he's *somehow* acquired the emotional sensibility of an autist/psychopath?!  I understand that you're buying into D&D's convoluted explanations given in retrospect to fill in the gaps left by their lack of continuity, but the fact remains there's precious little attention paid to logical character development and narrative cohesion.  Let's just enjoy it for what it is, without having to pretend we're watching the unfolding of anything approaching meaningful storytelling anymore!  :cheers:

Or let's just agree that I think something and you think something else and it's all down to different perspectives rather than right and wrong?  

Not buying into anything, the book and show are different things and I'm enjoying them separately on their own merits.  Maybe book-Bran will come across as less of an asshole or maybe his behaviour will be better explained with the benefit of hundreds of pages.

When he met Benjen he didn't actually say much. A normal response would have been "oh uncle Benjen, I'm so glad you're alive(ish)! And you saved us! *hugs*. Oh you've no idea what we've been through... this is my best friend Meera, I'd be dead without her... Do you know about father and mother? And Rob? And little baby Rickon? It's so sad... *weeps*...".  Ok, so he may be less close to Benjen if he was mostly at the wall with the occasional visit, so it may be more noticeable with people he should be closer with like his sisters. Poor Meera probably spent too much time dragging him around in a semi conscious state to notice how much he was changing, so it was really only noticeable when he didn't react to her leaving. I think they're trying to show that he's so full of info finding it hard to sort through what's 'him' and what's 'everything else', so meeting people, even family members, just throws up random visions and memories which he just says.  

Thats just what I think and you're welcome to your own opinion.

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On 06/08/2017 at 4:08 PM, Dizzy Walker said:

 

I see Bran as needing time to get things sorted too, but that scene really reminded me of something else... sorry, I am going off the rails here....

I was a big Dune BOOK (not movie) fan a long time ago, on a couch far, far away.  Littlefinger's speech and the way Bran acted with Sansa really reminded of the Paul Muad'dib character from Dune. Paul could see all future possibilities like a spider web. With that knowledge, Paul chose a path and had to make the choices that would cause pain and death of his loved ones and himself, all for the sake of a better future.  When Bran apologized to Sansa for the wedding,  I immediately thought of the Paul character.

 If Bran COULD manipulate the past, maybe he had set a course of events to get the end result of saving Westeros.   Unfortunately that course of events included Sansa having to go thru the wedding. If that was the case, Bran wasn't just trying to console or be supportive, he was actually apologizing to Sansa for making her go thru it. Most people saw creepy, I saw as guilt and dealing with what he had to do to his sister...

what is the point of Bran seeing everything if he can't do anything about it?  What was the point of the Blood raven just watching people? is it too be just like the Maesters, record history and nothing else?

I am wrong, I know, but it's what I first thought when I watched it...

 

Interesting notion! I haven't read Dune but I see what you're getting at. I wonder if Bran knows what he's supposed to do and how he fits into all of it. 

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2 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Or let's just agree that I think something and you think something else and it's all down to different perspectives rather than right and wrong?  

 Of course you're free to defend your appreciation of D&D's script -- just as I'm entitled to cast a more critical eye upon it.  It's not about 'right and wrong'; it's about 'logical and illogical' -- and by that distinction I'm not referring to you being illogical, but to the gaping holes in D&D's story.  If their script were so good, they wouldn't need to explain the story after the fact, nor would they need you to kindly explain it on their behalf (likewise, if the chemistry between the lead actors were so convincing, they wouldn't have to tell us that the characters find each other attractive...).  Talking about the story is not the same thing as telling it.  If it made sense, it would speak eloquently for itself as written, without all this exposition on the sidelines; and all these recent Bran threads and videos aghast at the change in the character would not exist.  People are perplexed, because the narrative is disjointed and perplexing.  That said, in principle I can understand, however, why being hooked up to the weirnet, the collective hivemind tree consciousness, would cause one to lose ones humanity over time.  In fact, I've explicitly described GRRM's peculiar characterisation of greenseeing using the metaphor of drowning or dissolving in a fluid medium, resulting in the dissolution of boundaries across person, time and space, and therefore threatening ones previous identity.  Currently, Bran is adrift in that 'green sea'.  

Quote

Not buying into anything, the book and show are different things and I'm enjoying them separately on their own merits.  Maybe book-Bran will come across as less of an asshole or maybe his behaviour will be better explained with the benefit of hundreds of pages.

When he met Benjen he didn't actually say much. A normal response would have been "oh uncle Benjen, I'm so glad you're alive(ish)! And you saved us! *hugs*. Oh you've no idea what we've been through... this is my best friend Meera, I'd be dead without her... Do you know about father and mother? And Rob? And little baby Rickon? It's so sad... *weeps*...".  Ok, so he may be less close to Benjen if he was mostly at the wall with the occasional visit, so it may be more noticeable with people he should be closer with like his sisters. Poor Meera probably spent too much time dragging him around in a semi conscious state to notice how much he was changing, so it was really only noticeable when he didn't react to her leaving. I think they're trying to show that he's so full of info finding it hard to sort through what's 'him' and what's 'everything else', so meeting people, even family members, just throws up random visions and memories which he just says.  

Thats just what I think and you're welcome to your own opinion.

Who's to say what a 'normal' response is?  What I can judge, however, is that there was nothing grossly 'abnormal' about Bran's reactions, facial affect, speech patterns, and general social demeanor back then (it's precisely because nothing stood out that we weren't having this conversation back then, were we?).  For example, he made more eye contact back then and his verbal responses were more appropriate to the conversation.  He was certainly not blunted the way he is now.  He may not have smothered his uncle in kisses, but no one would deny he was excited to see him and displayed curiosity in his uncle's story.  He was certainly not cruel to Meera.  Now, however, Bran does not seem to be paying attention to what is happening in front of him, being elsewhere occupied in his thoughts!  

I surmise GRRM in his stinginess when it comes to giving away his ideas, being unwilling to rain on his own parade, has refrained from coaching D&D through the logic of his thought process, depriving them of a cohesive plot.  He has only supplied them with the bare minimum of certain isolated 'end-goal' posts, one of which is probably that Bran 'goes over to the dark side' and has some sort of twisted relationship to the Night's King -- so this is D&D's slapdash interpretation of how that happened.  I have no doubt that GRRM will provide a more satisfying and nuanced account, should he ever get around to writing it. 

Edited by ravenous reader

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