Valyrian Fyrewyrm

Those Chains

75 posts in this topic

You know how in the books Tyrion chained off the Blackwater and in the show he didn't - well now we know why. Someone snuck the chains from Kings Landing up the the NK before Tyrion could get to them :D

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4 hours ago, ummester said:

You know how in the books Tyrion chained off the Blackwater and in the show he didn't - well now we know why. Someone snuck the chains from Kings Landing up the the NK before Tyrion could get to them :D

They showed the chain from the battle of Blackwater being made, being used in the battle, and discussed afterward.  It is on Bron's coat of arms.  They showed Bron pulling the chain tight and defending the fort on the shore that protected the mooring of the chain.

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7 hours ago, falcotron said:

Look, I'll admit that it makes no sense for someone who's never read the books to bring the books in, but that doesn't change the fact that you did bring the books in—as I quoted above—and you just did it again. It doesn't make sense that you'd do this, but you keep doing it.

Sir Dingleberry brought up the Thenns making steel, not me.  I said......IF.....that word is IF the Thenns make steel.....you replied to me that the Thenns make bronze.....

How is this so hard for you to follow?

Other people brought up the books and I replied to them.  Goodness.  This isn't rocket science.

7 hours ago, falcotron said:

Once again, it has nothing to do with being "too dumb", it has to do with living in a hunter-gatherer society with no settlements of more than a few dozen people. It doesn't matter how smart you are, or who you bribe or torture for information, a band of 50 people cannot forge steel. You keep talking about history, but you don't seem to understand this basic, fundamental difference between stone-age bands and iron-age settled cities.

Once again, in the show the wildlings aren't limited to be hunter/gatherers.  That's simply not in the show.  In the show the wildlings have "villages."  It is in the dialog in show.  So, once again, a person would need to bringing book perception of hte wildlings into the show in order to say they wouldn't have iron making due to being hunter gatherers......well, the show never establishes that and hints that that wildlings have "villages" and the only wildling we ever really spend time with has a keep (Craster).

7 hours ago, falcotron said:

Where are you even getting this from? You even quoted me saying "I don't have any problem with the chains". Do you not even read the posts you quote?

And again, why do you keep complaining about me bringing book canon in when you're the one who keeps talking about the books, even in this same very post where you complain about people bringing in the books?

This last bit is just me using the wrong word.  It isn't you.....as in just you....it is you as in the generic you (any person who does what I was describing).  But, my apologies.  I should have said......any person who does that.....but I didn't.

But this last sentence is just bad out of you.  I RESPOND to the book stuff.  Others bring it into the topic and then I address the book stuff.

Read the darn thread and you'll see that.

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43 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Once again, in the show the wildlings aren't limited to be hunter/gatherers.  That's simply not in the show.  In the show the wildlings have "villages."  It is in the dialog in show. 

What difference does it make?  In medieval times, a "village" is a community whose activity is essentialy subsistence agriculture.

When in the show do we meet a wildling baker, or carpenter, or wheelwright or any crafter? Never. They all depends on their ability to hunt, fish, pick, raise livestock or poultry, or plunder their neighbors…

As for Craster's "keep", it's clearly shown as a miserable slum…

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16 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

What difference does it make?  In medieval times, a "village" is a community whose activity is essentialy subsistence agriculture.

When in the show do we meet a wildling baker, or carpenter, or wheelwright or any crafter? Never. They all depends on their ability to hunt, fish, pick, raise livestock or poultry, or plunder their neighbors…

As for Craster's "keep", it's clearly shown as a miserable slum…

In fairness, the storytellers' interest in displaying the wildlings was not anthropological...they were interested in the relationship between the wildlings and the Westerosi and the wildlings and the others.  They didn't put hunting and gathering on display, either.  One can reasonably infer from the macro picture drawn of the wildlings that they have little technology, but we can't assume it explicitly just because we haven't seen it.

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21 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

What difference does it make?  In medieval times, a "village" is a community whose activity is essentialy subsistence agriculture.

When in the show do we meet a wildling baker, or carpenter, or wheelwright or any crafter? Never. They all depends on their ability to hunt, fish, pick, raise livestock or poultry, or plunder their neighbors…

As for Craster's "keep", it's clearly shown as a miserable slum…

Well, you just described the difference.

If in medieval times a "village" is a community whose primary activity is agriculture.......then, by definition, they are not "hunter-gatherers" anymore.

We don't meet them but we know they have baking skills and carpentry skills.....etc.  They build wooden shelters in the show so.....carpentry skills.  Do they have some few people who dedicate themselves to woodworking and crafting for trading purposes?  I don't know, it isn't addressed.  Maybe?

Maybe a master bow maker exists beyond the wall and to get the best bows up North you have to bring him 100lbs of fresh meat and 2 tanned animal skins and he'll make you a bow......

We simply don't know.

All we know is it is hinted at that not all of them are "hunter gatherers" because hunter-gatherers don't live in villages.

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7 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

In fairness, the storytellers' interest in displaying the wildlings was not anthropological...they were interested in the relationship between the wildlings and the Westerosi and the wildlings and the others.  They didn't put hunting and gathering on display, either.  One can reasonably infer from the macro picture drawn of the wildlings that they have little technology, but we can't assume it explicitly just because we haven't seen it.

Agreed.  So anybody saying they were this or that.....is somebody adding something the show never bothered with at all because it isn't important to the overall plot.

I also agree about little technology.  I'd say it is more they have inferior technology but little tech works too.

We can safely assume they have the technology to produce the stuff they have access to in the show.

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The wildlings in the show have used steel and chains multiple times in the show, so I don't think we need to know where chains came from.

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6 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

This last bit is just me using the wrong word.  It isn't you.....as in just you....it is you as in the generic you (any person who does what I was describing).  But, my apologies.  I should have said......any person who does that.....but I didn't.

But this last sentence is just bad out of you.  I RESPOND to the book stuff.  Others bring it into the topic and then I address the book stuff.

Read the darn thread and you'll see that.

The argument you're trying to push, that I'm responding to, is that it's unrealistic for the book Wildlings to not have steel.

If you don't actually believe that, or don't care, then fine, we can drop it.

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2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

The wildlings in the show have used steel and chains multiple times in the show, so I don't think we need to know where chains came from.

Yes, this is the key point. We know there were heavy metal chains in the Wildling camp at the siege on the Wall, and in Hardhome. Even if those are the only metal chains in all the lands beyond the Wall, that would still be enough for the Night King to use to raise Viserion.

There may be others that were even easier to find, there may not. They may have be recent wildling manufacture, remnants of their former now-collapsed civilization evidenced by Hardhome, or stolen from the Watch. But there's no plausible set of answers that makes the Viserion scene impossible.

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Just now, falcotron said:

The argument you're trying to push, that I'm responding to, is that it's unrealistic for the book Wildlings to not have steel.

If you don't actually believe that, or don't care, then fine, we can drop it.

It is fine with me if in the books the wildlings don't have steel.

It is fine with me if they are limited to hunter gatherers.

GRRM has unlimited pages to make sense of all that.

For tv reasons they would obviously simplify due to not wanting to explain in detail what they have and don't have and why that is why it is.  They'd want to avoid stuff like that so they did.....but simply upping the wildlings to having access to iron so that they can easily give them decent weapons and tools to do stuff they have to do in show (like climb the wall/tear down the gate at Castle Black).

Simple solution from the show writers perspective......

Just give the wildlings crude iron working skills.........now we can put chains on the wall and give them crampons and ice axes to climb the wall and cool giants with bows that can reach the top of the wall.......that'll be better for tv than the book way.......make the change....

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When I saw the chains my first thought was "Shit, so either Gendry has been sending chains to an anonymous buyer or we know what happened to the chains used in the Battle of the Blackwater".

 

The quarry/wilding/etc. idea is much more believable.

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I read somewhere it were chains used for a "ferry" to get a boat across the lake, for when it wasn't frozen.

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On 8/25/2017 at 3:01 PM, Nerevanin said:

Unless the NK did all the smith work himself of course.....

Well, according to popular consensus, he has had 8000 years, so even with his athletic scholarship (Javelin) and a masterclass in How To Trick A Dummy Into Giving You A Dragon I'm sure he had plenty of time for extracurricular activities.

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On 8/25/2017 at 7:01 PM, Lord Okra said:

But where they got the chains to retrieve him from is trivial and won't be addressed.

I suspect it will be addressed; not by way of having characters outright say "This is where he got the chains" but by means of revelation in the show which will reveal to the audience "Night King had foreknowledge of events, and planned for them": for instance, why did the Night King go to Hardhome in the first place? Was the addressed in the show? Was it just a random encounter? Or, was the purpose for his presence at Hardhome to retrieve the chains he was going to need?

But, if it's truly never addressed, I feel this would be very poor writing. I don't believe the writers can actually write such bad plot contrivances and feel justified in doing so, especially when they know their choices are going to be harshly scrutinized by a huge sea of fans expecting quality of writing above such plot contrivances.

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