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Joffrey Baratheon Discussion


norwaywolf123

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In this thread i wanna discuss who joffrey baratheon was how he ended up being like he was. Joffrey is Argueably the most dissapointing character in all of ASOIAF. He had the world in front of him and did nothing.

Questions

1. Did Joffrey die a Virgin?

- I  think that since Joffrey wanted to be like his "father" he might show signs of a large libido.

2. How was joffrey built? Do we have any sense of how tall he is metricly? Was joffrey physically wellformed?

Quote

Joffrey has the Lannister look and is tall for a boy his age, with blond curly hair. Known to be handsome, he has bright green eyes, pouty lips and an evil sneer. Jon Snow thinks that Joffrey looks like a girl.

- We know he had golden hair with curls aswell as green colored pupills. It is said he is handsome, do many characters agree with the statement? Jon Snow thinking Joffrey looks like a girl suggest that he attractive or Jon being jealous of Joffrey body?

Quote

 Arys Oakheart thinks the only good thing that could be said of Joffrey is that he was tall and strong for his age.[65]

Arys says Joffrey was tall for his age, what is the average height of a westerosi?

3. How did Joffrey end up with is mentallity? Is it more nature of nurture?

- A suggestion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVSdLrpiXfY

 

4. Did Joffrey have any martial skill? Do anyone have any quotes of Joffreys martial encounters and descriptions of his martial ability?     (Do anyone have the text of the encounter?)

- During Joffreys fight with Arya he seems to have the upper hand against her but gets disarmed by Nymeria, Arya's direwold. Joffrey as is male, and 5 years older than her he should have gotten physically stronger, mentally more developed and get more training. It is not great victory for joffrey to beat Arya armed with a tree stick while he is armed with a sword.

Sources

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Joffrey_Baratheon

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Some interesting physical descriptions of Joff which speak to the subjectivity of appearance.

AGOT Sansa VI

Sansa stared at him, seeing him for the first time. He was wearing a padded crimson doublet patterned with lions and a cloth-of-gold cape with a high collar that framed his face. She wondered how she could ever have thought him handsome. His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel. "I hate you," she whispered.

ACOK Sansa V

"I would, but my uncle the Imp says my uncle Stannis will never cross the river. I'll command the Three Whores, though. I'm going to see to the traitors myself." The prospect made Joff smile. His plump pink lips always made him look pouty. Sansa had liked that once, but now it made her sick.

ASOS Sansa II

"King Joffrey has such beautiful lips," Megga gushed, oblivious, "oh, poor Sansa, how your heart must have broken when you lost him. Oh, how you must have wept!"


 

#2 about wanting to be like Robert, I doubt Robert's influence directly or indirectly over Joff because of this passage.

ACOK Sansa I

"I am sorry for your loss as well, Joffrey," the dwarf said.

"What loss?"

"Your royal father? A large fierce man with a black beard; you'll recall him if you try. He was king before you."

"Oh, him. Yes, it was very sad, a boar killed him."

#4 Cersei was very protective of Tommen learning to fight so given that Robert was hands-off, I'm assuming this was also the case with Joff so I imagine his training was inferior. I seem to recall where he was shooting animals with a crossbow and was missing a great deal. Interestingly, Jaime hates archers because he sees them as cowardly for being distant and relatively safe during battle.

ASOS Jaime I

The galley was skimming downriver, a great wooden dragonfly. The water around her was churned white by the furious action of her oars. She was gaining visibly, the men on her deck crowding forward as she came on. Metal glinted in their hands, and Jaime could see bows as well. Archers. He hated archers.

 

The Hound’s relationship with Joff intrigues me a great deal. He’s one of the few whom Joff seemed to admire and trust. Given the Hound would stand up to Joff, one really wonders why he admired the Hound so as Joff reacted poorly to anyone else standing up to him.

It can be argued that the Hound knew Joff better than anyone if the Hound was so trusted. I think that this is why he was so compelled to protect Sansa. Young Hound sounded a lot like young Sansa: both innocent, idealistic and believing in knights and good things. No proof to back this up, but it seems likely that the Hound saw himself in Sansa and Gregor in Joff and feared a repeat of his own mistreatment through Joff and Sansa. If the Hound saw Gregor in Joff, I wonder if it was unconscious or not and if it meant that the Hound on some level never truly accepted that Gregor didn’t love him deep down and sought a different outcome in the Gregor-esque Joff.

I thought Cersei’s reaction to Frankengregor was a bit too personal. My crackpot is that Gregor has Joff’s head. If the Hound saw Joff as a way to relive his relationship with Gregor with a better outcome this time, wonder at his reaction to Gregor with Joff’s head.

Haven’t checked out the links yet. Another to consider is Radio Westeros’ podcast on Joff:

 

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2 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Questions

2.

- We know he had golden hair with curls aswell as green colored pupills. It is said he is handsome, do many characters agree with the statement? Jon Snow thinking Joffrey looks like a girl suggest that he attractive or Jon being jealous of Joffrey body?

Jon, with his Stark horse-face, was envious of Joffrey's handsomeness. And that all the hawt! girls were tittering about the Prince. So he "trash talked" Joffrey in his mind to make himself feel better.

He's more handsome than me? No! He looks like a girl! Yeah, like a sissy! A poof!

A very typical coping mechanism.

BTW - Jon thought that Jaime looked like a King, so he was not simply "not into blonds".

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8 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Questions

1. Did Joffrey die a Virgin?

2. How was joffrey built? Do we have any sense of how tall he is metricly? Was joffrey physically wellformed?

3. How did Joffrey end up with is mentallity? Is it more nature of nurture?

4. Did Joffrey have any martial skill? 

1. Given how sheltered a life Joffrey seemed to live, it seems highly doubtful he would have had any sexual encounters. They would have need to be have effectively set up for him by someone else. Robert is the only possible person who might have been motivated to do that, and he most likely would have just figured that was something a guy needed to go out and take care of for himself. 

2. He's never described as scrawny or particularly thick, so given his age (13) he's likely of a thin/fit build. Tall for that age would, at a guess, be 5 feet 8 inches or taller.

3. Nurture. Joffrey grew up on stories about his father taking the throne by force, and idolized the idea of strength. Combine tha with the superiority complex and disregard for those of a lesser station that his mother brought to the table, and his behavior isn't that surprising.

4. Aron Santagar (master-of-arms at the Red Keep) was encouraging Joffrey to fight Robb Stark with live steel when they visited Winterfell. It seems highly doubtful a man in that position would do such a thing if his pupil didn't at least have some competency. However,  Joffrey also had the deep-seeded cowardice common among many bullies, which would have put a psychological restraint on his martial skills if confronted with an opponent of equal or greater abilities.

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Joffrey ended up the way he was because he was spoiled. Robert wasn't much of a father, Cersei was too permissive when it came to her firstborn, and since he was the heir to the throne far too many people did whatever he wanted them to do. His positives might have been encouraged but without his negatives being discouraged he ended up with no checks to his temper or his behavior.

If that weren't enough, he comes to the throne at a time of change and upheaval. Puberty has at times been described as temporary insanity, from a brain chemistry standpoint. 

Combine those two things with the power handed to him (wrongly, as he was underage), and it's a recipe for exactly what we saw. Given enough time, and with a strong Regent doing the actual running of the government and teaching Joff how to be a king, the kid might have turned around.

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15 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Jon, with his Stark horse-face, was envious of Joffrey's handsomeness. And that all the hawt! girls were tittering about the Prince. So he "trash talked" Joffrey in his mind to make himself feel better.

He's more handsome than me? No! He looks like a girl! Yeah, like a sissy! A poof!

A very typical coping mechanism.

BTW - Jon thought that Jaime looked like a King, so he was not simply "not into blonds".

Success breeds jealousy

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9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Joffrey ended up the way he was because he was spoiled. Robert wasn't much of a father, Cersei was too permissive when it came to her firstborn, and since he was the heir to the throne far too many people did whatever he wanted them to do. His positives might have been encouraged but without his negatives being discouraged he ended up with no checks to his temper or his behavior.

If that weren't enough, he comes to the throne at a time of change and upheaval. Puberty has at times been described as temporary insanity, from a brain chemistry standpoint. 

Cersei seem to have tolerated or ignored jofferys relationships with his younger siblings. Joffery skinning tommens fawn seems to indicate a bad relationship.

9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Combine those two things with the power handed to him (wrongly, as he was underage), and it's a recipe for exactly what we saw. Given enough time, and with a strong Regent doing the actual running of the government and teaching Joff how to be a king, the kid might have turned around.

Tywin tried to be a storng regent and teacher for Joffrey unfortuantly he died before his time, they both(Joffery & Tywin) did. I think Cersei is to selfcented to be a good regent. Tyrion too is to self centered to be a good regent, aswell as being rival of joffery not a partner they also despised each other. Kevan is to meek i think to be good regent for joffery. Randyll Tarly could maybe be a good choice but i worry he is not of a high enough social standing for joffery to respect him. To me Tywin seems like the only one who could tame joffery and keep the court orderly.

9 hours ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

1. Given how sheltered a life Joffrey seemed to live, it seems highly doubtful he would have had any sexual encounters. They would have need to be have effectively set up for him by someone else. Robert is the only possible person who might have been motivated to do that, and he most likely would have just figured that was something a guy needed to go out and take care of for himself. 

If joffery had any lust i doubt i he would be stopped, but he did not seem like a lustful person or womanizer in the books. Only courting Sansa to please his "father", mother, make the right impression on standbys and to torment Eddard.

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16 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Some interesting physical descriptions of Joff which speak to the subjectivity of appearance.

 

AGOT Sansa VI

 

Sansa stared at him, seeing him for the first time. He was wearing a padded crimson doublet patterned with lions and a cloth-of-gold cape with a high collar that framed his face. She wondered how she could ever have thought him handsome. His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel. "I hate you," she whispered.

 

ACOK Sansa V

 

"I would, but my uncle the Imp says my uncle Stannis will never cross the river. I'll command the Three Whores, though. I'm going to see to the traitors myself." The prospect made Joff smile. His plump pink lips always made him look pouty. Sansa had liked that once, but now it made her sick.

 

ASOS Sansa II

 

"King Joffrey has such beautiful lips," Megga gushed, oblivious, "oh, poor Sansa, how your heart must have broken when you lost him. Oh, how you must have wept!"

 

 


 

#2 about wanting to be like Robert, I doubt Robert's influence directly or indirectly over Joff because of this passage.

ACOK Sansa I

 

"I am sorry for your loss as well, Joffrey," the dwarf said.

 

"What loss?"

 

"Your royal father? A large fierce man with a black beard; you'll recall him if you try. He was king before you."

 

"Oh, him. Yes, it was very sad, a boar killed him."

 

#4 Cersei was very protective of Tommen learning to fight so given that Robert was hands-off, I'm assuming this was also the case with Joff so I imagine his training was inferior. I seem to recall where he was shooting animals with a crossbow and was missing a great deal. Interestingly, Jaime hates archers because he sees them as cowardly for being distant and relatively safe during battle.

ASOS Jaime I

 

The galley was skimming downriver, a great wooden dragonfly. The water around her was churned white by the furious action of her oars. She was gaining visibly, the men on her deck crowding forward as she came on. Metal glinted in their hands, and Jaime could see bows as well. Archers. He hated archers.

 

The Hound’s relationship with Joff intrigues me a great deal. He’s one of the few whom Joff seemed to admire and trust. Given the Hound would stand up to Joff, one really wonders why he admired the Hound so as Joff reacted poorly to anyone else standing up to him.

 

It can be argued that the Hound knew Joff better than anyone if the Hound was so trusted. I think that this is why he was so compelled to protect Sansa. Young Hound sounded a lot like young Sansa: both innocent, idealistic and believing in knights and good things. No proof to back this up, but it seems likely that the Hound saw himself in Sansa and Gregor in Joff and feared a repeat of his own mistreatment through Joff and Sansa. If the Hound saw Gregor in Joff, I wonder if it was unconscious or not and if it meant that the Hound on some level never truly accepted that Gregor didn’t love him deep down and sought a different outcome in the Gregor-esque Joff.

 

I thought Cersei’s reaction to Frankengregor was a bit too personal. My crackpot is that Gregor has Joff’s head. If the Hound saw Joff as a way to relive his relationship with Gregor with a better outcome this time, wonder at his reaction to Gregor with Joff’s head.

 

 

Haven’t checked out the links yet. Another to consider is Radio Westeros’ podcast on Joff:

 

 

 

A good comment, than you.

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12 hours ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

1. Given how sheltered a life Joffrey seemed to live, it seems highly doubtful he would have had any sexual encounters. They would have need to be have effectively set up for him by someone else. Robert is the only possible person who might have been motivated to do that, and he most likely would have just figured that was something a guy needed to go out and take care of for himself.

Tyrion specifically WAS motivated to do that, to get some carrot for his troublesome ward, and discussed the matter but never got around to carrying it out.

What were the opportunities available to Joffrey?

We don´t know. For example, in medieval England, royal and lordly households were almost all-male affairs, having scullions rather than scullery maids in kitchens, et cetera - only very few maids in direct service of ladies.

Red Keep seems to have a bit more maids. Pycelle was served by a maid, and had an opportunity for a relationship. Aegon later III had an opportunity to impregnate a maid at Red Keep.

So what were the numbers, duties and discipline of servants in Red Keep of Robert? If Joffrey had exerted any initiative to propose to a low-status serving maid, how would Hound and Cersei have reacted?

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On 8/25/2017 at 2:42 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

1. Did Joffrey die a Virgin?

2. How was joffrey built? Do we have any sense of how tall he is metricly? Was joffrey physically wellformed?

3. How did Joffrey end up with is mentallity? Is it more nature of nurture?

4. Did Joffrey have any martial skill? Do anyone have any quotes of Joffreys martial encounters and descriptions of his martial ability?     (Do anyone have the text of the encounter?)

I think we are distracted by Joffrey's nastiness, and he is actually an important symbolic character. For instance, he has three swords - Lion's Tooth, Heart Eater and Widow's Wail - similar to the three swords of Azor Ahai. I suspect there are hidden meanings in a number of his statements and actions, but we might not know why they were meaningful until the last two books come out. For instance, Joffrey participates in the ongoing pattern of statements linking Tywin to the hidden passages under Casterly Rock:

Joffrey had that sullen, sulky look he got. Cersei had him firmly by the shoulder, but perhaps she should have had him by the throat. The boy surprised them all. Instead of scuttling safely back under his rock, Joff drew himself up defiantly and said, "You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him."
Oh, my, hasn't this gotten interesting? Tyrion thought.
Lord Tywin studied his grandchild in silence, gold flecks shining in his pale green eyes. "Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather," said Cersei.
He wrenched free of her. "Why should I? Everyone knows it's true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock." The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk."
"Thank you for that wisdom, Your Grace," Lord Tywin said, with a courtesy so cold it was like to freeze their ears off.
(ASoS, Tyrion VI)
 
I don't know why Tywin is often mentioned with the underside of Casterly Rock, but maybe Joffrey is giving us an important clue about Tywin by telling us that Tywin was scared of Aerys. No one else has said that, but what if it's true?
 
As for your questions, I think Joffrey did die a virgin. There is ironic foreshadowing that tells us Joffrey was fated to die at his wedding:

"Surely you know me better than that, Lord Varys," Tyrion said. "Why, all I want is for Joffrey to love me."

The eunuch had promised to look into the matter. The war made its own demands, though; Joffrey's initiation into manhood would need to wait. "Doubtless you know your son better than I do," he made himself tell Cersei, "but regardless, there's still much to be said for a Tyrell marriage. It may be the only way that Joffrey lives long enough to reach his wedding night."

(ACoK, Tyrion VIII)
 
But here again, we may be underestimating his symbolic role: Sansa feels all fluttery with bats in her tummy after Joffrey looks at her. Other threads in this forum have discussed this as a symbolic pregnancy for Sansa, with Joffrey as the father. Maybe we will know more about this as Sansa's arc develops and if the bats are "born".
 
Joffrey was physically well-formed but he is referred to as a monster. Many babies are called monsters, so this may not be a unique characteristic of Joffrey.
 
I think the surface Joffrey is Cersei, Jr. I think the symbolic Joffrey is Jaime, Jr. So his mentality was his inheritance from his mother as well as her nurture. Some of his words and actions are a reflection of Jaime and (I suspect) follow a more heroic arc.
 
Joffrey had no martial skill. I believe the only time he used his sword was to destroy the book that Tyrion gave him as a wedding present. His only battle experience was to order the antler men loaded into the trebuchets known as the three whores, and to have the men thrown over the walls toward the army of Stannis. Also, when you compare Joffrey's groom gifts to other gifts in the books (including Dany's wedding gifts) he is given lots of equipment for riding - boots, a saddle, a tourney pavilion, etc. - but no one gives him a horse. I think this may be symbolic of the all-talk-no-action life that Joffrey lived. He was a pretentious braggart, but had no martial skill of his own.
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I don't know if it has been mentioned (didn't read all the posts), but i think when the Baratheons and Lannisters visit Winterfell, Joffrey is taller than some of the older kids (Robb and Jon, or just Robb).

 

Considering his mother and father are Cersei and Jaime it's safe to say that he has a huge possibility of being handsome as well. Jon does remark on his girly looks, he also calls Myrcella insipid (if I'm right) when she's beside Robb 9which i think goes on to show his jealousy).

 

For his martial prowess, we've never actually seen Joffrey fight. let's not forget that he was carrying a real sword against Arya and Mycah. Also that one time Sandor comments sarcastically on Joffrey "a brave boy" when he's told that Joffrey shot someone with a crossbow, leads me to believe that Joffrey is all talk. And keep in mind that as Joffrey is the crown prince, people might let him win for fear of punishment.

 

As for his sex drive, i think he did die a virgin. Tyrion took notice of what Joffrey was doing to Sansa (not just abusing her but also humiliating her by having Kingsguard rip her clothes) and attributed it a sexual interest and wanted t take him to a brothel. But I don't think that plan ever comes to fruition and all throughout ACOK, Joffrey is prancing around either shooting people or being there as encouragement for the soldiers. So i don't think he had much time or interest then (I think he liked violence better).

 

As for his upbringing, i think the responsibility falls mostly on Cersei, because Joffrey's beliefs andactions seemed to mirror those of Cersei's. And she never disciplines him, instead he always gets his way and other people are punished for his wrongdoings. Robert was also absent from Joffrey's life as a role model. He tried to discipline him once, but Cersei intervened.

 

The other role model for Joffrey is the Hound. He really seems like a bad role model to be honest. Although he himself does have some potential for good, he stands for more sinister things. And there's the whole valyrian dagger thing. Who was Joffrey trying to impress? Robert or the Hound after all? I personally think the Hound. Which leads me to believe that he admires the wrong things about Sandor perhaps? And at some point Sandor could control him and dissuade him from doing stupid shit, but after he becomes King and the power goes to his head he stops listening to anyone.

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While a great deal of Joffrey's nastiness definitely comes from Cersei and Robert's "parenting", there is definitely more to it, given that Tommen and Myrcella are quite normal. There is complete lack of empathy on his part, towards anyone and anything, even his siblings, and while Cersei goes on about how much he means for her, I don't actually recall him showing any affection to his mother. He certainly goes to her for protection,  but nothing shows he cares. And that incident with the pregnant cat, IMHO, is there to show us a psychiatric diagnosis - dunno if psychopath is the correct one but for the general purpose it will do, I guess. So, Joffrey was a psychopath by nature and the nurture brought out the worst in him.

Physically, Joffrey seemed quite attractive - tall for his age, with the Lannister genes for beauty, with perhaps the lips a bit too full for a male, but the perception by the characters mostly differs according to their disposition towards him. A positive disposition provides a favourable description, and vice versa, which might suggest that although generally handsome, he was not such a paragon of male beauty like Jaime (or Rhaegar).

I think he most likely died a virgin - while his sexuality was definitely developing (see his treatment of Sansa: not just having her stripped but also the sexual threats he was making), I don't think he made any move on the castle maids because his sadism would have shown, and we would have been told. I think GRRM refrained from this because of the way he wanted to depict his death - the death of a child of thirteen, and sexual maturity would undermine that goal, IMHO.

As for martial skills, he definitely received some training but he apparently had none of Jaime's natural talent (or courage): 

“I am a prince. And I grow tired of swatting at Starks with a play sword.”
“You got more swats than you gave, Joff,” Robb said.

I think that this exchange pretty much indicates his personality - he got a beating in the previous round, so he either wants to increase his chances by using sharp swords, to which Robb is unused, or merely get out of it knowing that sharp swords won't be allowed but he can pretend that sticks or blunt swords are below him. I also think that as a spoilt brat and a coward he was, he probably didn't train very hard, and that his sparring partners, knowing his sweet personality, might have been easy on him to spare themselves trouble.

 

 

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On 25/08/2017 at 7:42 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

2. How was joffrey built? Do we have any sense of how tall he is metricly? Was joffrey physically wellformed?

He's supposed to be handsome I think people forget this because as great as an actor he is Jack Gleeson isn't really the most attractive of men. I picture Joffrey to look like William Moseley in the Narnia movies, Ed Speelers from Eragon, or even Tom Felton.

Joffrey's around 14 in GoT so I he'd still be growing I'd say he'd be around 5'6".

On 25/08/2017 at 7:42 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

3. How did Joffrey end up with is mentallity? Is it more nature of nurture?

I think it was a mix of both, he was born out of incest so that obviously affected his mental health but his terrible parenting didn't help. His mother saw his violence as strength whilst his father was too busy whoring to care, also becoming king at such a young age didn't help either.

But most of the blame for him lands chiefly on Cersei and Robert; both Tywin and Kevan wanted to get Cersei away from Tommen before she turned him into another Joffrey.

On 25/08/2017 at 7:42 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

4. Did Joffrey have any martial skill? Do anyone have any quotes of Joffreys martial encounters and descriptions of his martial ability?     (Do anyone have the text of the encounter?)

Well if a 9 year old girl with no training could knock him out with a wooden sword then I doubt it

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4 minutes ago, palaeologos said:

Joffrey doesn't seem to have had interest in sex, unless it was in the context of harming or humiliating someone else.  All indications from the books point to classic sadism.

Well, during one of the times he humiliates Sansa he does order the Kingsguard to strip her from the waist up and  Tyrion after witnessing this does considering Joffrey's interest in sex. So he plans to take him to some brothels (but never gets the opportunity what with preparing for the battle against Stannis and his attempt to isolate Joffrey from the Hound).

 

So you could say, in a twisted way he is interested in sex. Just still in a way that involves sadism and/or humiliation 9he also threatens Sansa with rape). Not to forget that cersei's interest in sex is also not healthy/genuine. She either uses it to gain something, fuck Jaime whom she considers an extension of herself or use it to feel dominant (the case with Taena)

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The sex and sadism issues in Joffrey's character may both be summed up by the brief passage featuring the trebuchets known as "The Whores". Joffrey says that his mother gave him permission to operate The Whores, and Tyrion concedes that it is a way to make Joffrey feel useful until the trebuchets are needed again for real combat. (Where do whores go?)

Since Jaime later threatens to launch Edmure Tully's baby in a trebuchet, I suspect there is something related going on in Joffrey's scene with pregnancy and delivery. Except Joffrey is delivering antler men to Stannis, not delivering a "whore's" baby. I suppose the antler men might be symbolic children of Stannis.

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On 28-8-2017 at 10:39 PM, Seams said:

The sex and sadism issues in Joffrey's character may both be summed up by the brief passage featuring the trebuchets known as "The Whores". Joffrey says that his mother gave him permission to operate The Whores, and Tyrion concedes that it is a way to make Joffrey feel useful until the trebuchets are needed again for real combat. (Where do whores go?)

Since Jaime later threatens to launch Edmure Tully's baby in a trebuchet, I suspect there is something related going on in Joffrey's scene with pregnancy and delivery. Except Joffrey is delivering antler men to Stannis, not delivering a "whore's" baby. I suppose the antler men might be symbolic children of Stannis.

I sniggered at the where do where's go.

I think you may be on to something here. Very interesting! I never thought of that scene as being symbolic. I do think your wrong about the antler men symbolising Stannis' children, I think they symbolise Robert's. Many of Robert's bastards were fathered on whores, and Joffrey is throwing them in Stannis's face, because the truth of Robert's children didn't win Stannis any alliances. 

He's throwing the truth right back at Stannis, and that truth is, that the truth doesn't win you any wars. 

Wasn't Joffrey also the one who ordered all Robert's bastards to be killed, or was that just show? 

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On 1.9.2017 at 1:25 AM, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I sniggered at the where do where's go.

I think you may be on to something here. Very interesting! I never thought of that scene as being symbolic. I do think your wrong about the antler men symbolising Stannis' children, I think they symbolise Robert's. Many of Robert's bastards were fathered on whores, and Joffrey is throwing them in Stannis's face, because the truth of Robert's children didn't win Stannis any alliances. 

He's throwing the truth right back at Stannis, and that truth is, that the truth doesn't win you any wars. 

Stannis used or intended to use Robert's bastards to prove Joffrey was a bastard and that Stannis was Robert's heir. Seems like blood is not the only thing you need to make a claim if you want to suceed.

On 1.9.2017 at 1:25 AM, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Wasn't Joffrey also the one who ordered all Robert's bastards to be killed, or was that just show? 

A Clash of Kings

Five gold cloaks come upon Yoren's band of Night's Watch recruits with the intent of seizing Gendry, a royal bastard, but are driven away. On Cersei's orders, Slynt sends his right hand man, Allar Deem, to murder the infant Barra, another royal bastard.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/City_Watch_of_King's_Landing#A_Clash_of_Kings

This is all i found for now.

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On 1. 9. 2017 at 1:25 AM, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Wasn't Joffrey also the one who ordered all Robert's bastards to be killed, or was that just show? 

Just the show, book Joffrey never issued such an order, and it is dubious he even knew about the bastards' existence.

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