Adam Yozza Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 19 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said: But Sam would have joined me in executing Jon to stop him from starting a war. No he wouldn't. On 15/11/2017 at 5:37 PM, Widowmaker 811 said: Mel doesn't know about the baby switch. Prove it. I personally believe there is enough implied in the text to reasonably conclude that Mel does know about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yet Another ASOIAF Fan Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 On 11/19/2017 at 10:50 PM, bemused said: Mel knows that Mance didn't become a king based on his bloodline. Why would she think his son possessed king's blood? By contrast Robert's (and therefore Stannis') claim relied on his Targaryen ancestry ... and we know that Mel wanted to burn Edric for his king's blood. To be fair, the rules of king's blood are so vague that it is difficult to know who has king's blood and if it has powers that differ from normal blood. Where does kings blood come from and when is it obtained? If Hotpie called himself the King of Pies would that give him kings blood? On topic, I would be surprised if anyone though Sam could hate Jon. Sam was clearly no happy with Jon using the candle's flame to threaten Gilly, but unless I am majorly mistaken Sam understood why Jon had to do the baby switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 If you think about it, Craster rules his own lands, with nobody, not even Mance above him, maybe that's enough to make his sons of "royal blood"? What is a king, but a ruler of a large piece of land with nobody else above him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, Orphalesion said: If you think about it, Craster rules his own lands, with nobody, not even Mance above him, maybe that's enough to make his sons of "royal blood"? What is a king, but a ruler of a large piece of land with nobody else above him? Which makes the Others having a lot of King's Blood among their members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 17 hours ago, Adam Yozza said: No he wouldn't. Prove it. I personally believe there is enough implied in the text to reasonably conclude that Mel does know about it. It's obvious that Mel doesn't know. She's not supposed to know until she tries to sacrifice the baby. It was Mel who reminded Jon that they have Mance Rayder's baby and they could use the boy to force Mance to run Jon's illegal errands. Jon agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 On 10/3/2017 at 8:52 PM, Intel XEON said: Who will be left to tell Mellisandre that the baby she now has is not the son of Mance. And this, I think, will be another one of GM's tragedies. Mel will burn who she thinks is the son of the King Beyond the Wall but her firewood is really baby Craster. What gift will come out of that flame after little Craster-Stark turns to charcoal will be interesting. Craster is a Stark and his blood may not be totally useless. Maybe burning a Stark will produce some kind of miracle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 On 15/11/2017 at 5:37 PM, Widowmaker 811 said: Mel doesn't know about the baby switch. I thought Mel was aware that Jon had "tricked her" or rather she knew that he "thought he had tricked her". I can't think of a way this would make sense other than she knows he got The Monster away from The Wall in place of Gilly's baby (the trick) and yet he has not pulled her claws as she still has Shireen for king's blood (the trick not kyboshing her plans). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said: It's obvious that Mel doesn't know. She's not supposed to know until she tries to sacrifice the baby. It was Mel who reminded Jon that they have Mance Rayder's baby and they could use the boy to force Mance to run Jon's illegal errands. Jon agreed. IIRC this is said in front of Mance. That does not mean she does not know about the switch, only that she is going to use the baby to keep Mance loyal. 56 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said: And this, I think, will be another one of GM's tragedies. Mel will burn who she thinks is the son of the King Beyond the Wall but her firewood is really baby Craster. What gift will come out of that flame after little Craster-Stark turns to charcoal will be interesting. Craster is a Stark and his blood may not be totally useless. Maybe burning a Stark will produce some kind of miracle. Prove that he is a Stark. Until you do so, don't present opinions as statements of fact. I, for one, do not believe Craster is a Stark. The thread discussing such did not convince me. But until proven otherwise I won't definitively say he is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagganaro Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Adam Yozza said: IIRC this is said in front of Mance. That does not mean she does not know about the switch, only that she is going to use the baby to keep Mance loyal. Yes I do believe she said that in front of Mance as well. At this point, it is still really unclear whether Mel knows about the baby switcheroo or not. I recall Val telling Jon that Mel definitely knows about it and allowed it to happen for her own reasons, but Jon is unconvinced. 4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said: And this, I think, will be another one of GM's tragedies. Mel will burn who she thinks is the son of the King Beyond the Wall but her firewood is really baby Craster. What gift will come out of that flame after little Craster-Stark turns to charcoal will be interesting. Craster is a Stark and his blood may not be totally useless. Maybe burning a Stark will produce some kind of miracle. Yeah...I don't really think Craster is a Stark. Possible but unlikely. In any case, I don't think Mel is gonna burn Monster. It seems like she is more likely to burn poor Shireen IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 22 minutes ago, Tagganaro said: Yes I do believe she said that in front of Mance as well. At this point, it is still really unclear whether Mel knows about the baby switcheroo or not. I recall Val telling Jon that Mel definitely knows about it and allowed it to happen for her own reasons, but Jon is unconvinced. Yeah...I don't really think Craster is a Stark. Possible but unlikely. In any case, I don't think Mel is gonna burn Monster. It seems like she is more likely to burn poor Shireen IMO. I would also say that is many times more likely, but even then I'm not yet 100% convinced that even Shireen will get burned (might just be wishful thinking on my part). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Lovejoy Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 On 11/21/2017 at 6:16 AM, Yet Another ASOIAF Fan said: To be fair, the rules of king's blood are so vague that it is difficult to know who has king's blood and if it has powers that differ from normal blood. Where does kings blood come from and when is it obtained? If Hotpie called himself the King of Pies would that give him kings blood? On topic, I would be surprised if anyone though Sam could hate Jon. Sam was clearly no happy with Jon using the candle's flame to threaten Gilly, but unless I am majorly mistaken Sam understood why Jon had to do the baby switch. Agreed on both counts. Sam will remain loyal to a fault - I am sure he will continue to be deferential to Jon even when Jon does stuff he does not like. The only way I could see him standing against Jon is if Jon comes back as a villainous character, then GRRM could live out his brave hero fantasy through Sam stopping Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckPunch Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 I would imagine Sam will be mad, but will forgive Jon. Jon was his first and best friend and ally, and Sam will see the logic behind what Jon had to do. Aemon was complicit in the arrangement as well so we can assume it was the best thing to do for the good of everyone. Plus the entire point of the switch was to prevent Mel from killing any babies. If she were to try and burn Gilly's babe Jon is supposed to tell her that it's not really Mance's son. The conflict will arise when she burns Gilly's babe while Jon is dead, which I'm certain will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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