Lightning Tiger

Why do the Vale Lord's & Knight care about north exactly?

28 posts in this topic

Seriously, before they showed up help beat Ramsay i was under the impression that Little Finger was running things over there, and yet these days its like Sansa is the Lord of the Vale, abandoned Little Finger ass after she spoke some words.

They are loyal to John Snow King of the north for what reason?

Edited by Lightning Tiger

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The Vale lords are all in open rebellion against the crown. Littlefinger originally told Cersei he was going to retake the North for her because the Boltons had turned traitor, but everyone now knows that he retook it for the Starks because the Boltons were still loyal. So, their only real options are:

  • Go begging on their knees to Cersei and try to convince her that Littlefinger duped them into rebelling.
  • Declare the Vale to be its own independent kingdom, and either crown Sweetrobin or fight over the crown among themselves, and then prepare to defend themselves.
  • Support Jon as King in the North. Since they fought for the North, the North will probably fight for them, so it's better than going it alone.

Which would you choose?

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5 minutes ago, falcotron said:

but everyone now knows that he retook it for the Starks because the Boltons were still loyal.

Except that entire Sansa thing. I guess Sansa is now pardoned since Olenna's death because she send an emissary to the meeting. I mean we know what is supposed to happed with the Jeyne replacement ... but still ... Ramsay still married the official murderer of Joeffrey.

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One more thing: Many of the Vale Lords like the Starks. They're the last known living relatives of Lysa, Sweetrobin, the Blackfish (who was their Knight of the Gate for 20 years), and Ned (who many of them grew up with, and then served under during Robert's Rebellion), and their family has a history of intermarrying with the Royces.*

In fact, on the show, the Starks seem to be the best possible heirs to Sweetrobin.** Not that I think they really want Sansa or Bran ruling them, or that any of the Starks particularly want to rule the Vale instead of the North—but that's a bonus reason to have Jon as their liege, so he can appoint a new Lord Paramount. Probably better than letting Cersei do it, even if they weren't traitors to her realm.

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* In the books, there's more rivalry among the Vale lords, and Littlefinger makes it even worse by playing them against each other. But on the show, once they get through the trial for Littlefinger at the end of S4, everyone happily defers to Yohn Royce, and he's named Commander of the Armies, and then no other named Vale lord ever appears on the show again. So, I think if Royce is happy, the Vale Lords are happy.

** In the books, Jon Arryn's sister Alys had a mess of daughters, and the second one has a living son, Harrold Hardyng, and the Vale Lords have all gotten together to agree that he's Sweetrobin's heir. But not only was that plot left out of the show, the HBO viewer's guide showed Alys as having died without heirs.

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19 minutes ago, falcotron said:

One more thing: Many of the Vale Lords like the Starks. They're the last known living relatives of Lysa, Sweetrobin, the Blackfish (who was their Knight of the Gate for 20 years), and Ned (who many of them grew up with, and then served under during Robert's Rebellion), and their family has a history of intermarrying with the Royces.*

In fact, on the show, the Starks seem to be the best possible heirs to Sweetrobin.** Not that I think they really want Sansa or Bran ruling them, or that any of the Starks particularly want to rule the Vale instead of the North—but that's a bonus reason to have Jon as their liege, so he can appoint a new Lord Paramount. Probably better than letting Cersei do it, even if they weren't traitors to her realm.

---

* In the books, there's more rivalry among the Vale lords, and Littlefinger makes it even worse by playing them against each other. But on the show, once they get through the trial for Littlefinger at the end of S4, everyone happily defers to Yohn Royce, and he's named Commander of the Armies, and then no other named Vale lord ever appears on the show again. So, I think if Royce is happy, the Vale Lords are happy.

** In the books, Jon Arryn's sister Alys had a mess of daughters, and the second one has a living son, Harrold Hardyng, and the Vale Lords have all gotten together to agree that he's Sweetrobin's heir. But not only was that plot left out of the show, the HBO viewer's guide showed Alys as having died without heirs.

The claim to the Vale runs through the Arryn half of Sweetrobin's parentage, not the Tully. The Starks are most likely his closest family, but have no claim at all to the Vale or to be Robert's heir (unless it is very far removed from some Royce marriage way back when). 

As an aside, I wish they had kept Waynwood and Corbray from Season 4. One problem this show has is making everything seem small by reducing each region down to just one major player (here, Royce). 

Also, I wonder how pissed Royce will be at Jon bent the knee. He was certainly very anti-Targaryen in the early moments of this season. Of course the Wall coming down changes everything, but there are definite possibilities for conflict there

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8 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Except that entire Sansa thing. I guess Sansa is now pardoned since Olenna's death because she send an emissary to the meeting. I mean we know what is supposed to happed with the Jeyne replacement ... but still ... Ramsay still married the official murderer of Joeffrey.

I'm not sure Cersei has actually pardoned Sansa. Just because she knows Sansa isn't guilty doesn't mean she doesn't want Sansa dead. Tywin admitted that he knew Tyrion wasn't guilty, and didn't pardon him. The fact that she invited Sansa to the meeting doesn't mean anything—it's an armistice parley, and surely she hasn't pardoned Jon or Dany for treason and rebellion, right?

I'll admit that I may have guessed Littlefinger's plan wrong with the Sansa-Ramsay thing,* but the only way it makes sense to me is if Littlefinger lied to Roose and told him that he wa getting Sansa with Cersei's blessing. So Littlefinger basically tricked them into rebelling without knowing he was doing it. Because if Roose had actually been intentionally rebelling, he wouldn't still have been allied with the Freys, who were definitely not rebelling.

Not that Roose wasn't thinking about betraying the Lannisters after Tywin's death—he even talks about it with Ramsay early in S5—but there was nobody to betray them for. Certainly not Stannis or Jon. And then, the next episode, he announces the Sansa deal, and nobody mentions the idea of betraying the Lannisters again. Roose isn't crowning himself King in the North or supporting a pretender for the Iron Throne. Ramsay is still showing off his legitimization from King Tommen. They don't seem to know they're rebelling against the crown through S5, and possibly not even until the Vale army shows up at the end of S6.

Which, I'll admit, is a little strange—wouldn't someone have sent a raven one way or the other that might have raised some eyebrows during the entire year or more they were accidentally rebelling against the crown? But it seems to be what happened.

---

* The show never actually explained most of it, not even after the fact when Sansa demanded that Littlefinger explain it, and neither did D&D off-screen, even when directly asked about it…

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Just now, HelenaExMachina said:

The claim to the Vale runs through the Arryn half of Sweetrobin's parentage, not the Tully. The Starks are most likely his closest family, but have no claim at all to the Vale or to be Robert's heir (unless it is very far removed from some Royce marriage way back when).

That would be true under Salic law or a modern peerage, but Westerosi tradition is not really strict primogeniture. It's closer to Norman tradition, but even less well defined than that. When things get complicated and there is no heir, they'll look for whatever family they can find.

That's why the Manderlys were one of the potential claims on the Hornwood estate, through Donella (who wasn't even the mother of a Lord Hornwood, only the widow of one). House Dustin seems set to go to one of Barbrey's Ryswell kin after she dies. And, most obviously, Cersei is Queen.

Of course this is the kind of thing you'd refer to the liege unless you want to fight over it, just as we saw Lady Hornwood do. But that's the point—you'd rather refer the succession to Jon than to Cersei.

(By the way, on TV, Robin is Sweetrobin's actual name, not his nickname. There's no Robert Arryn.)

Just now, HelenaExMachina said:

As an aside, I wish they had kept Waynwood and Corbray from Season 4. One problem this show has is making everything seem small by reducing each region down to just one major player (here, Royce). 

Yeah, but without the rivalries between the families and the little foibles for Littlefinger to play off (and teach Sansa about), they really weren't serving much purpose. And they weren't particularly like Lady Waywood and Vance Corbray from the novels. I'd almost rather they just give random names to some of the background lords, and then they can use different names if they can't get the actors to come back, and that would be fine.

Just now, HelenaExMachina said:

Also, I wonder how pissed Royce will be at Jon bent the knee. He was certainly very anti-Targaryen in the early moments of this season. Of course the Wall coming down changes everything, but there are definite possibilities for conflict there

I'm pretty sure they are going to have one scene of argument about it before the news comes in about the Wall and everyone sensibly decides to deal with it later.

And they don't really have enough Northern lords left as characters to sustain an argument, so I'm guessing Royce may be the one who voices the anti side.

Which actually makes sense. Not only did he have some negative things to say about Targaryens, he can also raise the point that Jon screwed the Vale more than his own lords. I realize the Vale had been de facto annexed to his kingdom, but if he's not actually king, there is no such thing, and he isn't speaking for them, he's just putting them in a spot where they have no choice but to do the same thing as him but still take responsibility for doing it.

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The simplest explanation for their initial behavior in the show is that Sweetrobin more or less told them to (he was manipulated by Littlefinger, but still.) and Royce & Co follows his command: "She's (Sansa) my cousin, we should help her."

By this stage they are in open rebellion against the crown (at least according to LF), so they might as well continue supporting the north, especially after the fact that they hear about Daenerys and her armies attacking the crown from the east. I'd also like to know what Royce himself thinks about the AotD, but I assume that he believes Jon.

Edited by MinscS2

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Lysa accused the Lannisters of poisoning Lord Arryn. IIRC, the lords knew it. So keeping their distance from Cersei is logical. More so with all the shit raining everywhere in the south and winter coming. Sweetrobin is their Lord. He is not very smart but has a soft spot for Sansa. Who is a no nonsense woman, and of Lysa's kin. I image many of the Vale's lords would be happy to marry Sansa with Robin. An alliance Stark-Arryn would make sense anyway. And, if as it seems they believe the threat of the Others, it makes sense to contribute in the North, to the defense of the 7K.

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10 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

I'd also like to know what Royce himself thinks about the AotD, but I assume that he believes Jon.

Yeah, it would be pretty odd to not say anything about "this fairytale again" if he didn't believe in it during, say, the argument about Jon going to Dragonstone.

And, from a pragmatic point of view, not only does it make a lot more sense to fight the dead together than to fight them separately, it also makes sense to fight them in Winterfell and let the North deal with the fallout than to wait for the dead to come south of the Neck and screw up their realm.

But I'm not sure Jon has done a great job communicating how immediate the threat is, and maybe even how dangerous it is. When they get word that the Walkers have broken through the Wall, not many people will be surprised that they have to deal with the problem, but some of them may be surprised that they have to deal with it right now or everybody dies.

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8 minutes ago, ChuckPunch said:

Because a lord in a castle told them to.

Lol. Thats as good as reason as any.

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I find that they're loyal to Sansa, moreso than Jon, but since Jon is the King In The North, that makes the Vale one of their vassel houses. But like I said, I look at them being more loyal to Sansa, because Sansa is essentially the heiress of House Tully, along with Edmure, whom I'd assume is free now since the entirety of House Frey seems to be a thing of the past. But Edmure can just as easily claim House Frey through his wife and make them another Vassal house to the King In The North and his Stark/Tully cousin. But it was obvious that the Battle Of The Bastards was lost until Sansa & Littlefinger arrived bringing along the Knights of the Vale. So why do they care about the North? Easy, because Sansa is the North along with her cousin.

Edited by RhaegoTheUnborn

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1 hour ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

I find that they're loyal to Sansa, moreso than Jon

This is true, but there's probably a reason for it: Sweetrobin ordered the Vale-knights to go and aid his cousin: Sansa.
Jon on the other hand, isn't related to Sweetrobin in any way.

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4 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

I find that they're loyal to Sansa, moreso than Jon, but since Jon is the King In The North, that makes the Vale one of their vassel houses. But like I said, I look at them being more loyal to Sansa, because Sansa is essentially the heiress of House Tully, along with Edmure, whom I'd assume is free now since the entirety of House Frey seems to be a thing of the past. But Edmure can just as easily claim House Frey through his wife and make them another Vassal house to the King In The North and his Stark/Tully cousin. But it was obvious that the Battle Of The Bastards was lost until Sansa & Littlefinger arrived bringing along the Knights of the Vale. So why do they care about the North? Easy, because Sansa is the North along with her cousin.

Arryn House is not located in the north. The knights of the valley are not vassals of the king of the north, they went to the battle because their Mr. Robin Arryn asked them to help their cousin sansa, but the valley has nothing to do with Jon.

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1 hour ago, The Prince who was not pro said:

Arryn House is not located in the north. The knights of the valley are not vassals of the king of the north, they went to the battle because their Mr. Robin Arryn asked them to help their cousin sansa, but the valley has nothing to do with Jon.

Prettty sure vassel house simply means they're loyal to a greater lord or heiress and can be called upon in the time of war, not necessarily where they're placement is. In that case House Arryn is definitely a vassel house of the Stark cousins. I could be wrong though, but that appears to be the situation, they'll fight for Sansa, Bran & Arya, and by extension, Jon as well in the nearing war with the Night King, and possibly House Lannister.

Edited by RhaegoTheUnborn

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14 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Prettty sure vassel house simply means they're loyal to a greater lord or heiress and can be called upon in the time of war, not necessarily where they're placement is. In that case House Arryn is definitely a vassel house of the Stark cousins. I could be wrong though, but that appears to be the situation, they'll fight for Sansa, Bran & Arya, and by extension, Jon as well in the nearing war with the Night King, and possibly House Lannister.

The show has not really given us any reason to think otherwise at this point. 

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1 hour ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Prettty sure vassel house simply means they're loyal to a greater lord or heiress and can be called upon in the time of war, not necessarily where they're placement is. In that case House Arryn is definitely a vassel house of the Stark cousins.

No, a vassal is not just anyone who will fight for you, it's someone who has a formal obligation to fight for you, and who holds their land as part of the same agreement that obligates them.*

House Arryn are not vassals of the Starks. They may be allies, but that's a very different thing.

And the Starks are not greater lords,** they're at the exact same level as the Arryns, both sworn directly to the crown as Lords Paramount of their respective former kingdoms.

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* At least in the developed kind of feudalism they have in Westeros. Before Charlemagne it was a bit different, but that isn't relevant here.

** Of course that changes when Jon is elected King in the North. Especially since most of Robin's vassals seem to have participated in that election. That might even mean that the Vale has been annexed to the North. But still, there hasn't been a commendation ceremony to make Robin a vassal to Jon; the two haven't even talked.

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3 hours ago, jcmontea said:

The show has not really given us any reason to think otherwise at this point. 

Yup. 

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