Weinstein/Hollywood Sex Scandal Continues To Produce Headlines

[Theda Baratheon]

7 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

Okay Mankytoes, I said last time that was the last time and I’m saying it again. Here is another bit of emotional labor I am doing to educate you.

We are discussing an issue that statistically impacts women in vast numbers.

Yes it occasionally impacts men as well, and that can be discussed, just separately.

Women know a lot about this topic. Almost all of us experience it first hand. Almost all of us experience it more than once. Consequences result from it for the perpetrator almost none of the time but result for a female victim almost all of the time. We have firsthand knowledge. We discuss it among ourselves, with other possessors of firsthand knowledge. We do this a lot. We are extremely knowledgeable in this area, because being knowledgeable in this area is important to our survival.

Men don’t get forced to be as knowledgeable in this area. Some men are because they listen to people who are without getting childishly defensive about being excluded.

Your ignorance on this topic is not equal to our knowledge and experience with it. 

You can have an opinion on it, but until you’ve listened first extensively to the people who have to live with this on a daily basis as reality and not just an idea, that opinion is like you having an opinion on what tampon brand is best- uninformed and needlessly contrary.

Many needlessly stupid things have happened because men have power and don’t know anything about women’s lives but get to make the rules. That’s why viagra is always covered by insurance but birth control isn’t always because Mike Pence and people like him think that birth control isn’t a human rights issue for women (ask the UN, it is), and that it has no medical uses beyond preventing pregnancy (ask a doctor, it does). Or ask around about all the disasters men have planned for or taken control of that don’t take menstration and the supplies thereof into account. Women deal daily with policies made by men who are well intentioned but don’t know how our bodies and lives are different. In our government, in our healthcare, in our workplaces, in public bathrooms, in prisons- we have to find ways to live around male ignorance that is regarded as equal to our knowledge.

If Bill Nye, demonstrably likely to be more knowledgeable than you, was in here talking about science and space travel and physics- you’d probably not argue your opinions on that with him, you’d take advantage of the opportunity to ask him questions and listen and grow your own knowledge.

We are Bill Nye on this.

 

My God I want to print this and hand it out as a God damn leaflet, bravo

[Kelli Fury]

2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

If I needed just one good example of what is wrong with the dominating liberal culture of today, then "don't rape" education for boys would be it. Effectively it's saying among other things that sexual violence is inherently associated with men and possibly even that all men are prone to sexual violence if not educated against it. It puts boys into drastic choice: either accept the premise that men are inherently prone to sexual violence if not educated against it, and by doing that also start with the rejecting of manhood in it's essence, OR rebel against such education which in that age pretty much means that those boys will probably grow into angry outcasts.

Are you inherently prone to drunk driving? Were you educated not to do that? 

If almost every woman experiences sexual assault by a man, and a very small percentage of men experience it (as far as we know), many of them also by a man- DO YOU THINK ITS JUST ONE GUY DOING IT AND THEN GOING HOME AND RUBBING HIS HANDS TOGETHER ABOUT ALL THE EVIL HE’S SPREAD THAT DAY??

Or do you think maybe a large portion of these guys could be well meaning people who didn’t realize that what they were doing was assault and not acceptable flirting? 

Do you think maybe it’s worth hurting some male feelings by educating them about affirmative consent if it reduces the amount of people getting assaulted or raped? Like we agree rape is worse than sitting through a class you find patronizing, right? Because the amount of women who experience assault is about equal to the amount of men who went to public school at all.

[StepStark]

4 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Have you just gone and ignored the vast majority of this thread? 

And I'm not sure I've seen any men in this thread be specifically told: "you are being too emotional/angry/hostile/aggressive" 

I find it difficult to believe you genuinely don't understand the significance of female anger in a thread specifically about the Hollywood sexual scandal in which women are, for once, being heard (sometimes) and coming forward with their stories as they are statistically more likely to be victims of sexual assault than men. 

Who is this vague person you're describing. Hmm.

You're discussing something not with powerful Hollywood rapists, but with other posters. But you think that "female anger" in this thread should not only be acceptable but also seen as significant. No wonder I "genuinely don't understand" such a position.

[Theda Baratheon]

7 minutes ago, StepStark said:

If I needed just one good example of what is wrong with the dominating liberal culture of today, then "don't rape" education for boys would be it. Effectively it's saying among other things that sexual violence is inherently associated with men and possibly even that all men are prone to sexual violence if not educated against it. It puts boys into drastic choice: either accept the premise that men are inherently prone to sexual violence if not educated against it, and by doing that also start with the rejecting of manhood in it's essence, OR rebel against such education which in that age pretty much means that those boys will probably grow into angry outcasts.

Men are statistically far more likely to sexually harass or assault than women though...no matter how many times you want to use any variation of not all men; a SIGNIFICANT proportion of men don' understand boundaries or don't care about them. I think it should definitely be taught within sex ed classes - what is and isn't rape.

I can't believe when faced with a topic like this your first thought is "LIBERALS ARE SO BAD FOR WANTING TO CHILDREN ABOUT RAPE AND BOUNDARIES" good grief 

[Theda Baratheon]

3 minutes ago, StepStark said:

You're discussing something not with powerful Hollywood rapists, but with other posters. But you think that "female anger" in this thread should not only be acceptable but also seen as significant. No wonder I "genuinely don't understand" such a position.

What are you doing here?

What do you want to discuss in this thread? Do you have anything of substance to add? Go ahead and discuss it. But if you'e here to just here to tell women to shut up then no wonder we are angry. You'e being deliberately obtuse. 

[StepStark]

4 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

Are you inherently prone to drunk driving? Were you educated not to do that? 

If almost every woman experiences sexual assault by a man, and a very small percentage of men experience it (as far as we know), many of them also by a man- DO YOU THINK ITS JUST ONE GUY DOING IT AND THEN GOING HOME AND RUBBING HIS HANDS TOGETHER ABOUT ALL THE EVIL HE’S SPREAD THAT DAY??

Or do you think maybe a large portion of these guys could be well meaning people who didn’t realize that what they were doing was assault and not acceptable flirting? 

Do you think maybe it’s worth hurting some male feelings by educating them about affirmative consent if it reduces the amount of people getting assaulted or raped? Like we agree rape is worse than sitting through a class you find patronizing, right? Because the amount of women who experience assault is about equal to the amount of men who went to public school at all.

"Facts" you're quoting here are ridiculous. I don't live in USA and never have been there, but I happen to know quite a few people from there and I don't know anyone who'd agree with your statistics that "almost every woman experiences sexual assault" (whether by a man or another woman). In Europe where I live in, and I traveled throughout it, that is definitely not the case. Vast majority of women never experienced sexual assault. Almost every one of them experienced inappropriate approaching and hitting, but that is another matter. Not to equalize the two but I'll just say that almost every men experienced inappropriate response to appropriate approaching.

But even that is not the point. Let's say that you are right and that I'm wrong, and that almost every woman indeed experienced sexual assault by a man. That would mean that decades and decades (or even centuries) of modern education simply failed, and failed miserably, and created society that is evil in its core. If you think that more of the same (education) can solve that, I think you're in for quite a disappointment.

And also, if you really think that my post was about "hurting some male feelings", then I'm sorry but you're doing the very mansplaining only in the opposite direction.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

StepStark,

In Europe where I live in, and I traveled throughout it, that is definitely not the case. Vast majority of women never experienced sexual assault. Almost every one of them experienced inappropriate approaching and hitting, but that is another matter. Not to equalize the two but I'll just say that almost every men experienced inappropriate response to appropriate approaching.

Respectfully, you're quibbling over semantics.  It isn't appropriate in this thread.

[Week]

6 minutes ago, StepStark said:

"Facts" you're quoting here are ridiculous. I don't live in USA and never have been there, but I happen to know quite a few people from there and I don't know anyone who'd agree with your statistics that "almost every woman experiences sexual assault" (whether by a man or another woman).

You would be wrong -- as pointed out by many Americans. You're gaslighting here and it is pretty obnoxious.

6 minutes ago, StepStark said:

But even that is not the point. Let's say that you are right and that I'm wrong, and that almost every woman indeed experienced sexual assault by a man. That would mean that decades and decades (or even centuries) of modern education simply failed, and failed miserably, and created society that is evil in its core. If you think that more of the same (education) can solve that, I think you're in for quite a disappointment.

It has failed. Demonstrably. Care to offer a solution that has the reach and ubiquity of schools in the US? Or do you not know the subject matter and context discussed here to actually contribute?

6 minutes ago, StepStark said:

And also, if you really think that my post was about "hurting some male feelings", then I'm sorry but you're doing the very mansplaining only in the opposite direction.

Like reverse racism and ROUS's -- that does not exist.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

1 minute ago, StepStark said:

Almost every one of them experienced inappropriate approaching and hitting, but that is another matter. Not to equalize the two but I'll just say that almost every men experienced inappropriate response to appropriate approaching.

 

?!?!?

1.  Hitting is by definition battery, not assault, at least in most US jurisdictions.  So I guess that IS another thing (and a pretty terrible thing, and I'm sorry for the women you know)?  And I don't know what inappropriate approaching is, but that well could meet the legal definition of assault in the US (jurisdictions vary) which basically means a threat of bodily harm that is coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause that harm.

Now, I'll cop to being a bit of a sophist here, because I think you mean "inappropriate hitting on" meaning, women who have been made uncomfortable by a man who is putting pressure on her for or in respect of sex.  But I would refer you to the definition of assault.

2.  And I don't know what "appropriate approaching" is, but if the person you are approaching says "stop approaching" and you keep "approaching" geez, I dunno....

[StepStark]

14 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

a SIGNIFICANT proportion of men don' understand boundaries or don't care about them

If you really think that, then you're probably in the wrong species. Because if you're right, that would mean that for thousands and thousands of years and civilization men still didn't learn how to respect women. But that would also mean that great many women also didn't learn how to respect women, because the vast majority of those women-hurting men had mothers and other female influence in their childhood and still grew into women-hurting machines.

I happen to have an alternate explanation. I don't think women in general are as mistreated as you say. But some undoubtedly are and precisely by people like Harvey Weinstein. If you think you're helping them by throwing all those ridiculous accusation against men and against thousands of years of human civilization, you're not. Quite the opposite.

But if "female anger" makes you feel better, go on. I won't be in your way any more. If I ever was at all.

[StepStark]

4 minutes ago, Week said:

Like reverse racism and ROUS's -- that does not exist.

That's as closeminded as it comes, sorry to say.

[Week]

2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

If you really think that, then you're probably in the wrong species. Because if you're right, that would mean that for thousands and thousands of years and civilization men still didn't learn how to respect women. But that would also mean that great many women also didn't learn how to respect women, because the vast majority of those women-hurting men had mothers and other female influence in their childhood and still grew into women-hurting machines.

Insulting, condescending, and grossly inaccurate. What is your point of joining this discussion? What are you seeking to get out of this?

2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

I happen to have an alternate explanation. I don't think women in general are as mistreated as you say. But some undoubtedly are and precisely by people like Harvey Weinstein. If you think you're helping them by throwing all those ridiculous accusation against men and against thousands of years of human civilization, you're not. Quite the opposite.

Again, gaslighting. If you aren't familliar:

Gaslighting is a form of manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, hoping to make them question their own memory, perception, and sanity. Using persistent denial, misdirection, contradiction, and lying, it attempts to destabilize the target and delegitimize the target's belief

2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

But if "female anger" makes you feel better, go on. I won't be in your way any more. If I ever was at all.

Are you proud of yourself?

[Week]

2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

That's as closeminded as it comes, sorry to say.

It really isn't -- you've demonstrated a shocking lack of understanding, curiosity, and basic decency in, frankly, record-time.

[Theda Baratheon]

4 minutes ago, StepStark said:

If you really think that, then you're probably in the wrong species. Because if you're right, that would mean that for thousands and thousands of years and civilization men still didn't learn how to respect women. But that would also mean that great many women also didn't learn how to respect women, because the vast majority of those women-hurting men had mothers and other female influence in their childhood and still grew into women-hurting machines.

I happen to have an alternate explanation. I don't think women in general are as mistreated as you say. But some undoubtedly are and precisely by people like Harvey Weinstein. If you think you're helping them by throwing all those ridiculous accusation against men and against thousands of years of human civilization, you're not. Quite the opposite.

But if "female anger" makes you feel better, go on. I won't be in your way any more. If I ever was at all.

Well...I have a degree in ancient history and im working on a post-grad degree so I'm pretty happy with my knowledge on ancient civilisations and the truth is that lots of women are harmful. 

No one in this thread is declaring all men to be evil rapists and all women to be poor victims. This is a thread on sexual assault - I don't know what other narrative you're here for. 

[Theda Baratheon]

2 minutes ago, Week said:

It really isn't -- you've demonstrated a shocking lack of understanding, curiosity, and basic decency in, frankly, record-time.

It's almost impressive isn't it LOL!!

To act as abhorrent as possible to as many people as possible in an hour or so. 

I think he' managed to insult every woman in this thread must be proud of himself

[mankytoes]

42 minutes ago, Week said:

^^^Listen, read, internalize, and pause before responding flippantly to Kelli and the other women posting here. This is fucking life for women -- refusing to acknowledge the inherent difference in experience between men and women AND then refusing to adjust your behavior in discussing that difference is a problem. Not the place for whataboutism, devil's advocacy, or other bullshit.

Also, oh nice, a new wave of mansplainers. 

Ok, I will. I think the thread is kind of going over the same ground at this point, so I'll hold back, do some more thinking.

I suggest you think about how you are telling people not be dismissive, then using a stupid gendered buzzword to dismiss new people in the thread. I see this a lot, people say "it's really important to reconsider your beliefs"- but they only really apply that to people they disagree with. Are you actually doing the same thing?

Look at Kelli's post up there. Now look at the number of women that voted for Donald Trump. This board has very strong political leanings. If you only acknowledge people who agree with you, you are only really acknowledging yourself.

[StepStark]

4 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

And I don't know what "appropriate approaching" is, but if the person you are approaching says "stop approaching" and you keep "approaching" geez, I dunno....

If that satisfies definitions you adhere to, then I'm pretty sure that women are as guilty (or almost as guilty) as men. I'm in late thirties and it happened to me quite a few times that I express to a girl that I'm not interested but she continues to hit on me. It happened to every one of my friend and colleagues as well. And of course all of us were "guilty" of the same thing, because sometimes we do/did continue with hitting on even after we're told that she's not interested.

Most usually it resulted in an embarrassment for the person who'd continue to hit on (whether it's a man or a woman). Rarely it resulted in success, because the target actually changed his/her mind. But I don't know a single case where it resulted in any sexual violence.

Now of course, I'm not speaking for the entire gender. Of course that sometimes things like that go too far and someone gets really hurt. But if it was as often as people here are saying, I'd definitely see something like that at least once, especially considering that I happen to know quite a lot of people due top my profession and that my social circle is bigger than average.

[Theda Baratheon]

3 minutes ago, StepStark said:

If that satisfies definitions you adhere to, then I'm pretty sure that women are as guilty (or almost as guilty) as men. I'm in late thirties and it happened to me quite a few times that I express to a girl that I'm not interested but she continues to hit on me. It happened to every one of my friend and colleagues as well. And of course all of us were "guilty" of the same thing, because sometimes we do/did continue with hitting on even after we're told that she's not interested.

Most usually it resulted in an embarrassment for the person who'd continue to hit on (whether it's a man or a woman). Rarely it resulted in success, because the target actually changed his/her mind. But I don't know a single case where it resulted in any sexual violence.

Now of course, I'm not speaking for the entire gender. Of course that sometimes things like that go too far and someone gets really hurt. But if it was as often as people here are saying, I'd definitely see something like that at least once, especially considering that I happen to know quite a lot of people due top my profession and that my social circle is bigger than average.

What makes you think you'd see it or even recognise it? What makes you think all the women you know are going to tell you about all the times they'e been harassed or assaulted?  They're not.

[Week]

2 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Look at Kelli's post up there. Now look at the number of women that voted for Donald Trump. This board has very strong political leanings. If you only acknowledge people who agree with you, you are only really acknowledging yourself.

This is overly simplistic -- women are not a singular voting bloc, they are not all single-issue voters (even if they were -- are you suggesting that sexual assault is the single issue?). Why is their* voting for Trump relevant? Spoiler: it is not relevant. So ask yourself, why did you bother saying it?

*Predominantly white women -- not that we need to go there too.

[Kelli Fury]

How’d we get all these redpill castoff debatemebros? Thanks, HBO