Weinstein/Hollywood Sex Scandal Continues To Produce Headlines

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, Eggegg said:

Well thats by todays standards. In many cultures you are an adult as soon as you hit puberty and are sexually ready at that point as well. We don't see things like that any more for a variety of reasons. I don't think it has anything to do with not viewing women as people at all, that is a strange spin on it IMO. 

Drink and drugs can make people do some absolutely terrible things, I've seen it in real life. Its hard to say whether it brings out a side of someone that was already there or whether it just creates these effects on its own. 

If someone uses drugs or alcohol to create an "altered state" for themselves they are liable for what they do in that state.  Or, are you going to argue you can't hold Drunk Drivers responsible for their actions because they were drunk at the time?

[Dr. Pepper]

3 hours ago, Eggegg said:

Well thats by todays standards.

Is there a time machine I don't know about whereby humans are interacting with the 'standards' from centuries ago?  Because if not then the only standards that matter are the ones that exist at present because this is the fucking time with which we live and interact.  

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In many cultures you are an adult as soon as you hit puberty and are sexually ready at that point as well. We don't see things like that any more for a variety of reasons. I don't think it has anything to do with not viewing women as people at all, that is a strange spin on it IMO. 

What you fail to mention is that this tends to be more true for girl children than boy children.  Maybe because girls tend to be viewed as having less autonomy than boys.  You know, less than own person and more an extension of those with power over them.

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Drink and drugs can make people do some absolutely terrible things, I've seen it in real life. Its hard to say whether it brings out a side of someone that was already there or whether it just creates these effects on its own. 

Sure, an alcoholic beverage used to wash down a hit of meth might make me say that someone with your views is a cesspool of pro-rape filth who should be scrubbed in a vat of bleach when I might not otherwise say such a thing, but it doesn't excuse it nor protect me from consequences.

The same should apply to those who physically or sexually harm others.  Stop trying to 'well actually' for the perpetrators.  

2 hours ago, Eggegg said:

Mothers were incredibly important parts of society, they were certainly viewed as people. Peoples roles were different back then I agree, but your view of it doesn't quite tie into mine. Either way this is an entirely off topic conversation and I find your tone quite aggressive so I'm just going to leave that there and choose not to respond.

Oh ffs.  You're excusing rape and child marriage and you think her tone is aggressive?  

I'm pretty sure you've now hit all of the blocks on the "How to be a shitbag male who contributes to the misogynistic rape culture of today's society" bingo card.  

[Eggegg]

25 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

If someone uses drugs or alcohol to create an "altered state" for themselves they are liable for what they do in that state.  Or, are you going to argue you can't hold Drunk Drivers responsible for their actions because they were drunk at the time?

No, not arguing that at all, if you choose to take those substances and abuse them then you are totally responsible for your actions when you are on them. No doubt about that. My point was more about questioning about whether those actions were part of some innate urges inside of him or whether he was so out of his mind that he didn't understand what he was doing. Again not excusing anyone, its a genuinely interesting question to me. 

12 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I'm pretty sure you've now hit all of the blocks on the "How to be a shitbag male who contributes to the misogynistic rape culture of today's society" bingo card.  

I mean yes I have more to say on your points, but clearly this is not the thread for it. I'd consider discussing it elsewhere, but it seems like you've just jumped down my throat for merely questioning a point. I think poster's above points seem very valid about the response to debate around here.

[Tywin et al.]

Mansplaining in general is poor form, but doing it in this thread is especially disgusting. Good god….

[mankytoes]

58 minutes ago, Lily Valley said:

WHAT THE EVERLOVING FUCK CESSPOOL????

Are y'all seriously defending child marriage and asking for a pat on the back because you no longer want to stone the gays????

WHAT?  WHAT?  WHAT?  

Arguing AGAINST "don't rape people" education for boys????

 

WHAT THE EVERLOVING FUCKING FUCK???

:hands de-victimisation spray back to KaIr and Theda and Kelli and DP.:

SHEEEIT.  I'm going to work.  FUCK YOU GUYS.  THIS THREAD IS A GODDAMN FILTHY TOILET AND YOU AREN'T FUCKING EVEN WORTH IT.

 

Please read my comment again. That isn't at all what I am saying. Look at the context. I'm discussing how you should speak to someone if you want them to move on. This woman puts it better than I can-

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

47 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

No, not arguing that at all, if you choose to take those substances and abuse them then you are totally responsible for your actions when you are on them. No doubt about that. My point was more about questioning about whether those actions were part of some innate urges inside of him or whether he was so out of his mind that he didn't understand what he was doing. Again not excusing anyone, its a genuinely interesting question to me. 

I mean yes I have more to say on your points, but clearly this is not the thread for it. I'd consider discussing it elsewhere, but it seems like you've just jumped down my throat for merely questioning a point. I think poster's above points seem very valid about the response to debate around here.

If someone chooses to put themself in that state...  I don't think it matters whether they would have done it sober.  It was done... they are responsible. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

22 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Please read my comment again. That isn't at all what I am saying. Look at the context. I'm discussing how you should speak to someone if you want them to move on. This woman puts it better than I can-

 

I assume you didn't mean to leave that blank?!?

[Dr. Pepper]

26 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I assume you didn't mean to leave that blank?!?

Considering the content of his other posts, I think it's quite intentional.  

[mormont]

5 hours ago, Eggegg said:

Well thats by todays standards. In many cultures you are an adult as soon as you hit puberty and are sexually ready at that point as well.

Can you identify these cultures, preferably providing a link?

Because I hear this 'other cultures' argument a lot, but I wonder about whether this is reliable understanding that a person has of those other cultures, or whether it's a vague impression they picked up second- or third-hand from a book or a TV programme they sort of remember.

After all, being 'an adult' means very different things in very different cultures and times. There's a persistent myth about teenage marriage in 'the middle ages', for example, which ignores the fact that a, the evidence is that this was quite rare, and b, in any case 'the middle ages' was far from being a monolithic culture. 

5 hours ago, mankytoes said:

This might amaze you, but sometimes men actually have opinions on things as well, and aren't just arguing for the sake of debate.

That's reasonable but it is not rebutting the point being made, that men tend to express their opinions much more and sometimes we do need to shut up to allow others the space to express their opinions. It's about dominating the conversation, which is a thing you can do online as well as verbally in person. 

[mankytoes]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Considering the context of his other posts, I think it's quite intentional.  

Ha, I'm not disagreeing with what you have written under your name, but that was quite a good one.

 

[Theda Baratheon]

A thread on sexual assault is NOT the right place to be telling women to be nicer and less angry...jesus. we've all been saying women are silenced and talked over constantly and lo and behold we have genuine tone policing of women's emotions in here. 

Good grief 

[Zorral]

Guys who keep asking the same questions as a guise for showing themselves as allies or sincere inquirers on this journey of sexual harassment, abuse and violation should certainly read this article.  If a guy who is doing this can read this honestly he might just see at least some aspect of what he's doing -- and then he will really have learned something, and not need to pretend-ask these questions, these same questions, over and over and over again, which thereby, reiterating the same question shows a certain lack of sincerity in learning, recognizing, understanding anything, yes?

https://www.salon.com/2017/11/13/wont-someone-please-think-of-the-men/

[mankytoes]

1 minute ago, Theda Baratheon said:

A thread on sexual assault is NOT the right place to be telling women to be nicer and less angry...jesus. we've all been saying women are silenced and talked over constantly and lo and behold we have genuine tone policing of women's emotions in here. 

Good grief 

Agreed, no one should say that to women specifically. Asking people generally to be civil, however, is totally different.

[King Ned Stark]

7 minutes ago, mormont said:

That's reasonable but it is not rebutting the point being made, that men tend to express their opinions much more and sometimes we do need to shut up to allow others the space to express their opinions. It's about dominating the conversation, which is a thing you can do online as well as verbally in person. 

Possibly true, but it doesn’t seem as if Mankytoes has tried to dominate the discussion, in my opinion.  Quite the opposite, actually, he has seemed to try and remain polite throughout, despite personal insults, being told to shut up, and a lot of oh ffs and then ignoring his questions.

While some may find his position wrong, or even insulting, it’s still presented in a polite manner.

I agree there are times that everyone or anyone, regardless of race or gender, probably need to shut up, but not to the point of generalizing an entire group, right?  Or is this okay now, with certain groups?

[StepStark]

7 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

A thread on sexual assault is NOT the right place to be telling women to be nicer and less angry

But it is for men to be told the same?

Someone should be told to be nicer and less angry if he/she is not nice and acting very angry. Gender doesn't have anything to do with it. Perhaps someone was told to be nicer and less angry not because she's a woman, but because she was acting in a way that wasn't nice and was very angry.

[Kelli Fury]

Okay Mankytoes, I said last time that was the last time and I’m saying it again. Here is another bit of emotional labor I am doing to educate you.

We are discussing an issue that statistically impacts women in vast numbers.

Yes it occasionally impacts men as well, and that can be discussed, just separately.

Women know a lot about this topic. Almost all of us experience it first hand. Almost all of us experience it more than once. Consequences result from it for the perpetrator almost none of the time but result for a female victim almost all of the time. We have firsthand knowledge. We discuss it among ourselves, with other possessors of firsthand knowledge. We do this a lot. We are extremely knowledgeable in this area, because being knowledgeable in this area is important to our survival.

Men don’t get forced to be as knowledgeable in this area. Some men are because they listen to people who are without getting childishly defensive about being excluded.

Your ignorance on this topic is not equal to our knowledge and experience with it. 

You can have an opinion on it, but until you’ve listened first extensively to the people who have to live with this on a daily basis as reality and not just an idea, that opinion is like you having an opinion on what tampon brand is best- uninformed and needlessly contrary.

Many needlessly stupid things have happened because men have power and don’t know anything about women’s lives but get to make the rules. That’s why viagra is always covered by insurance but birth control isn’t always because Mike Pence and people like him think that birth control isn’t a human rights issue for women (ask the UN, it is), and that it has no medical uses beyond preventing pregnancy (ask a doctor, it does). Or ask around about all the disasters men have planned for or taken control of that don’t take menstration and the supplies thereof into account. Women deal daily with policies made by men who are well intentioned but don’t know how our bodies and lives are different. In our government, in our healthcare, in our workplaces, in public bathrooms, in prisons- we have to find ways to live around male ignorance that is regarded as equal to our knowledge.

If Bill Nye, demonstrably likely to be more knowledgeable than you, was in here talking about science and space travel and physics- you’d probably not argue your opinions on that with him, you’d take advantage of the opportunity to ask him questions and listen and grow your own knowledge.

We are Bill Nye on this.

 

[Week]

^^^Listen, read, internalize, and pause before responding flippantly to Kelli and the other women posting here. This is fucking life for women -- refusing to acknowledge the inherent difference in experience between men and women AND then refusing to adjust your behavior in discussing that difference is a problem. Not the place for whataboutism, devil's advocacy, or other bullshit.

 

 

Also, oh nice, a new wave of mansplainers. 

[StepStark]

2 hours ago, Lily Valley said:

Arguing AGAINST "don't rape people" education for boys????

If I needed just one good example of what is wrong with the dominating liberal culture of today, then "don't rape" education for boys would be it. Effectively it's saying among other things that sexual violence is inherently associated with men and possibly even that all men are prone to sexual violence if not educated against it. It puts boys into drastic choice: either accept the premise that men are inherently prone to sexual violence if not educated against it, and by doing that also start with the rejecting of manhood in it's essence, OR rebel against such education which in that age pretty much means that those boys will probably grow into angry outcasts.

[Theda Baratheon]

5 minutes ago, StepStark said:

But it is for men to be told the same?

Someone should be told to be nicer and less angry if he/she is not nice and acting very angry. Gender doesn't have anything to do with it. Perhaps someone was told to be nicer and less angry not because she's a woman, but because she was acting in a way that wasn't nice and was very angry.

Have you just gone and ignored the vast majority of this thread? 

And I'm not sure I've seen any men in this thread be specifically told: "you are being too emotional/angry/hostile/aggressive" 

I find it difficult to believe you genuinely don't understand the significance of female anger in a thread specifically about the Hollywood sexual scandal in which women are, for once, being heard (sometimes) and coming forward with their stories as they are statistically more likely to be victims of sexual assault than men. 

Who is this vague person you're describing. Hmm. 

14 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Agreed, no one should say that to women specifically. Asking people generally to be civil, however, is totally different.

Not everyone is referring to or about you...

 

I just think there is significance and credit in emphasising the point that this should be a thread where female anger is allowed. Because we are angry about a very real and pervasive thing (sexual assualt/harrassment) that we've had to grow up keeping in the forefront of our minds even as many men don't believe us because NOT ALL MEN. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

28 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Ha, I'm not disagreeing with what you have written under your name, but that was quite a good one.

 

Thanks for updating.