Weinstein/Hollywood Sex Scandal Continues To Produce Headlines

[Theda Baratheon]

Anyone else think the thread title joke is a bit dismissive and in poor taste or am I just being a humourless harpy lol

[The Anti-Targ]

6 hours ago, Yukle said:

History is kind of sad in that most people see it as a journey of progress. It's not, because there is no fixed destination. So in a few decades, you will see almost the same headlines as now, just with different names.

 

I dunno, I think in the long sweep of history humanity has generally progressed socially and ethically, but it's not been a constant upward climb. There have definitely been major backward steps. As a religious person myself I think there is a grand plan and while there is probably not a destination per se, because life individually and collectively will always be a learning process, there is a direction.

[Yukle]

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I dunno, I think in the long sweep of history humanity has generally progressed socially and ethically, but it's not been a constant upward climb. There have definitely been major backward steps. As a religious person myself I think there is a grand plan and while there is probably not a destination per se, because life individually and collectively will always be a learning process, there is a direction.

That's a fair view to take, and certainly much more enticing that what I wrote.

[Lily Valley]

10 hours ago, Kelli Fury said:

Little known fact- since it’s very tiring to explain the nuances of the female experience the mods put all the women of GenChat into a pool and draft whose job it is to explain things and deal with dominant group defensiveness about it. It’s like jury duty. This week is just my turn. The pool is a lot smaller on indigenous issues so I catch that one most times it comes up.

Thanks Kelli, we're rolling into finals.  I'm back in rotation December and January.  I had that long stretch in the diversity thread last month, got me a pass.    Besides, you're killing this one.

[polishgenius]

5 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Why segregate people when instead you can just not harass people and not assault people?  

Coz that would mean making an effort and perhaps having to think about what we're doing wrong, duh. The path of least self-reflection has to be the one we take.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

On 11/12/2017 at 0:59 AM, Yukle said:

Because Republicans, as they say right now with Roy Moore, say time and time and time again: "Well it's better than having a Democrat in office."

It is also revealing to see a recent poll in the Washington Post: the majority of Americans say that women have a harder time in general than men. The only demographic that disagreed were Trump voters, who say that either there is no difference or that men have it harder.

I know, it’s just stunning to watch a party that proclaims to be the standard bearer of family values and morality not care at all when one of its own brags about getting away with sexually assaulting woman.

[Dr. Pepper]

6 hours ago, ummester said:

Most of my life I've worked for government - which seems to have a bigger problem with nepotism than anything else. I've heard stories of younger women getting promoted because of their relationships - but never being given a job because they took their top off for the boss or something like that. If that happened, all the older women in the government would come down on the boss like a ton of bricks.

Either in this thread or the previous one someone attempted to casually dismiss the allegations by expressing disbelief that the rich powerful Angelina Jolies of the world would 'allow' the abuse from the Weinsteins of the world to occur or continue.

This is exactly what you are doing here.  Just think...if your coworkers hear some version of this from you or several of like you in your department they are that much more unlikely to come forward.  

4 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Anyone else think the thread title joke is a bit dismissive and in poor taste or am I just being a humourless harpy lol

Yes, it's awful.  And I hate that you have to worry that you're being a humorless harpy for not liking it, but that's pretty much the single reason that I didn't already comment on it.  

[Zorral]

13 hours ago, mankytoes said:

 

. . . . why do you think most rapists and sexual assaulters don't think that is what they did? Is that just based on legal pleas or statements of the accused? You look at someone like Weinstein, he'll say he felt it was all just a misunderstanding, but then he's hiring ex-Mossad guys to follow his accuser, it's kind of hard to believe. I think they know that society considers what they do to be wrong, but they don't think the same rules apply.

Because studies show it to be so:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/health/men-rape-sexual-assault.html

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/01/lots-of-men-dont-think-rape-is-rape.html

https://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/columns/the-sexist/blog/13118502/rapists-who-dont-think-theyre-rapists

As the first article tells, after many interviews with convicted rapists, murders -- those have committed such terrible crimes that many would classify them as monsters, those same men believe that other guy over there is the rapist, the pedophile, the murderer, the monster -- but I am not!  Because, reasons.

[Zorral]

6 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Anyone else think the thread title joke is a bit dismissive and in poor taste or am I just being a humourless harpy lol

Yes -- in very poor taste, and too much of a joke.

[Theda Baratheon]

2 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

 

Yes, it's awful.  And I hate that you have to worry that you're being a humorless harpy for not liking it, but that's pretty much the single reason that I didn't already comment on it.  

I feel like I constantly have to be explaining myself an reassuring people I'm not a man hating feminist! The amount of abuse I've gotten online fro random men is ridiculous lol and I'm actually a very friendly person IRL who laughs a lot and has lots of male friends but I hate having to preface some things I say because I cant be bothered with being accused of being humourless lol

29 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Yes -- in very poor taste, and too much of a joke.

Yep. Im not impressed or amused by it 

[Darth Richard II]

I never really noticed the topic title, which probably says something about my brain state, but yeah that is....not funny.

[Darth Richard II]

35 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Because studies show it to be so:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/health/men-rape-sexual-assault.html

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/01/lots-of-men-dont-think-rape-is-rape.html

https://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/columns/the-sexist/blog/13118502/rapists-who-dont-think-theyre-rapists

As the first article tells, after many interviews with convicted rapists, murders -- those have committed such terrible crimes that many would classify them as monsters, those same men believe that other guy over there is the rapist, the pedophile, the murderer, the monster -- but I am not!  Because, reasons.

That's what really struck me about Dreyfus statement. He thought the attraction was mutual...just...wtf.

[mankytoes]

18 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Because studies show it to be so:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/health/men-rape-sexual-assault.html

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/01/lots-of-men-dont-think-rape-is-rape.html

https://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/columns/the-sexist/blog/13118502/rapists-who-dont-think-theyre-rapists

As the first article tells, after many interviews with convicted rapists, murders -- those have committed such terrible crimes that many would classify them as monsters, those same men believe that other guy over there is the rapist, the pedophile, the murderer, the monster -- but I am not!  Because, reasons.

Thanks for the links, interesting reading. I guess a lot of people still can't disconnect the idea of a rapist from the guy prowling through the park carrying a knife and wearing a balaclava. They aren't thinking of the guy who ignores his girlfriend telling him to stop during foreplay, or the guy who takes advantage of someone passed out at a party. I remember being on a student forum a few years ago, and this girl said she was in bed with her boyfriend, he initiated sex, she said no, he just ignored her and kept going. She asked him to stop, he just smiled and said he was nearly finished. Everyone agreed this was bad, he was in the wrong- but people were very split on whether she was raped. A lot of people felt like rape was too strong of a term for this- it was her boyfriend, he might not have realised she was serious, etc. That was pretty shocking to me. Man asks for sex- woman says no- man has sex with her anyway. That's like the definition of rape. That is not "grey area". I guess it was hard to see the guy in the story as a "monster"- and we all know rapists are monsters.

I just don't think these guys are going to accept the label of "rapist", even if they know it applies to them. Because there's no respect to it. A killer, a thief, these are powerful images, even romanticised, respected in certain circles. But everyone hates (or at least will proclaim to hate) a rapist. Rapists get beaten up in prison and shunned outside of it. No one wants to associate with a rapist.

[Kelli Fury]

7 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I don't get this whole "battle of the sexes approach". Just mentioning men doesn't make it "all about men". Should Kevin Spacey's (alleged) victims have kept quiet for now because they are men and this is "women's time" and they are "distracting"? I'm sure your intentions are good, but I really think these aren't produtive ideas you're spreading.

You asked me about breast cancer, I stated a biological fact (which was hilarious to you...).

But I don't think you are, I've been supportive of all the women talking about their experiences. We can have more than one discussion.

I don't use twitter myself, but I always want to encourage people coming forward, I wouldn't want to slag off someone for using the wrong hashtag. Like in England, some male footballers came forward with stories of abuse, they got this reply on twitter from one of our most famous darts' players- "Might be a looney but if some football coach was touching me when i was a kid as i got older i would have went back and sorted that poof out."Dart players tough guys footballers wimps".

I think anyone who has faced injustice should stand up and speak out, no matter their race, sex, gender identity, religion or sexuality. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Fair, thanks for sharing. I would doubt their sincerity a lot of the time, but as you say, you have the personal experience here. I've only got one experience like that, and I didn't get an explanation, the dude just tried to punch me for pushing him (hard) away.

I will try one more time to explain it to you- people of a dominant group intrinsically have more power than the non dominant group. It took ONE man accusing Spacey to cancel his show and reshoot his upcoming movie and kill his career. Only one. Donald Trump became president AFTER being accused by about 15 women and bragging himself on tape that he does this all the time and that he gets away with it because he’s powerful. Cosby didn’t face consequences even though women had been talking about it for decades. What brought him down? Hannibal Burris mentioning it, a man. People just listen to men more and that is a huge part of why women don’t speak up. With #metoo, women are saying hey, you guys aren’t listening to us, here’s what you are missing. Like, I get you’re saying you wish gender wasn’t a factor and I understand the feeling - BECAUSE SO DO WE. But it is a factor whether we like it or not. I would love nothing more than to live in a world where my gender doesn’t play a role in every goddamn thing I experience. We can’t have a meaningful conversation about it and how to solve it without addressing the gender aspect. It is exactly the same as when people talk about how a black or indigenous person is many times more likely to be killed by police than a white person in the same interaction. You’re the guy jumping in saying all lives matter and that it’s a problem for everyone and about police abuse of power and not race. But that guy needs to stop talking and listen because those are both issues but they are separate issues with separate solutions. These are too. It’s not the same people doing this to men, they probably don’t have the same motivations and they probably aren’t assuming this is okay like the men who do this to women. They also don’t have tons of messages in media saying this is how you court people normally the way men approaching women do. So the solutions to these problems are going to be different. So basically it’s like if your friend falls down the stairs and says “I broke my arm, we need to go to the hospital” and you are replying “I need to get my oil changed” in that moment. Yes, you do need to get your oil changed and your friend agrees, but since they started the conversation and are asking for your help you are being a jerk for interrupting them with it at that time.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

10 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

I will try one more time to explain it to you- people of a dominant group intrinsically have more power than the non dominant group. It took ONE man accusing Spacey to cancel his show and reshoot his upcoming movie and kill his career. Only one. Donald Trump became president AFTER being accused by about 15 women and bragging himself on tape that he does this all the time and that he gets away with it because he’s powerful. Cosby didn’t face consequences even though women had been talking about it for decades. What brought him down? Hannibal Burris mentioning it, a man. People just listen to men more and that is a huge part of why women don’t speak up. With #metoo, women are saying hey, you guys aren’t listening to us, here’s what you are missing. Like, I get you’re saying you wish gender wasn’t a factor and I understand the feeling - BECAUSE SO DO WE. But it is a factor whether we like it or not. I would love nothing more than to live in a world where my gender doesn’t play a role in every goddamn thing I experience. We can’t have a meaningful conversation about it and how to solve it without addressing the gender aspect. It is exactly the same as when people talk about how a black or indigenous person is many times more likely to be killed by police than a white person in the same interaction. You’re the guy jumping in saying all lives matter and that it’s a problem for everyone and about police abuse of power and not race. But that guy needs to stop talking and listen because those are both issues but they are separate issues with separate solutions. These are too. It’s not the same people doing this to men, they probably don’t have the same motivations and they probably aren’t assuming this is okay like the men who do this to women. They also don’t have tons of messages in media saying this is how you court people normally the way men approaching women do. So the solutions to these problems are going to be different. So basically it’s like if your friend falls down the stairs and says “I broke my arm, we need to go to the hospital” and you are replying “I need to get my oil changed” in that moment. Yes, you do need to get your oil changed and your friend agrees, but since they started the conversation and are asking for your help you are being a jerk for interrupting them with it at that time.

I agree with your overall point, but the Spacey stuff didn't happen in quite the way you are posing it. It started with Anthony Rapp, which resulted in a problematic "apology" from Spacey which involved an excuse (I was drunk) and an impromptu coming out of the closet. This in turn prompted a slew of other accusers and then an HR sort of interview of many staffers, crew and co-stars of his House of Cards show by Netflix. At that point, he lost his job. It happened very quickly, I grant you that, but it didn't happen on the back of one accusation. One accusation set off a veritable firestorm.

[Theda Baratheon]

2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I agree with your overall point, but the Spacey stuff didn't happen in quite the way you are posing it. It started with Anthony Rapp, which resulted in a problematic "apology" from Spacey which involved an excuse (I was drunk) and an impromptu coming out of the closet. This in turn prompted a slew of other accusers and then an HR sort of interview of many staffers, crew and co-stars of his House of Cards show by Netflix. At that point, he lost his job. It happened very quickly, I grant you that, but it didn't happen on the back of one accusation. One accusation set off a veritable firestorm.

It still took one accusation to kick it off though...

 

[Kelli Fury]

5 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I agree with your overall point, but the Spacey stuff didn't happen in quite the way you are posing it. It started with Anthony Rapp, which resulted in a problematic "apology" from Spacey which involved an excuse (I was drunk) and an impromptu coming out of the closet. This in turn prompted a slew of other accusers and then an HR sort of interview of many staffers, crew and co-stars of his House of Cards show by Netflix. At that point, he lost his job. It happened very quickly, I grant you that, but it didn't happen on the back of one accusation. One accusation set off a veritable firestorm.

Spacey handled it badly, sure. Do you think Trump handled allegations .....well?? And if you don’t like that example just take Cosby then 30 women’s word < one man’s word about the 30 women

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, Kelli Fury said:

Spacey handled it badly, sure. Do you think Trump handled allegations .....well?? And if you don’t like that example just take Cosby then 30 women’s word < one man’s word about the 30 women

No, I'm granting you all of that. Cosby skated by for decades until the Hannibal Buress bit that drug the story kicking and screaming into the light. It certainly says something that it took a man saying something to get the allegations to be taken seriously. 

I'm not sure how Trump figures into this, as he was rewarded with the most powerful political position in the nation despite these allegations.

Honestly, I wish this scandal had broke in October or November of last year. I think it likely would've sunk Trump's chances had it been a big headline then. 

[Kelli Fury]

3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

No, I'm granting you all of that. Cosby skated by for decades until the Hannibal Buress bit that drug the story kicking and screaming into the light. It certainly says something that it took a man saying something to get the allegations to be taken seriously. 

I'm not sure how Trump figures into this, as he was rewarded with the most powerful political position in the nation despite these allegations.

Honestly, I wish this scandal had broke in October or November of last year. I think it likely would've sunk Trump's chances had it been a big headline then. 

It figures into it because nobody listened to the women who accused him which is exactly my point. Men are usually believed when they say it, and women are usually not believed. Spacey doesn’t get to be on Netflix anymore, Clarence Thomas got a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court, Donald Trump and Bill Clinton got to be president, Harvey Weinstein got to make every movie ever, Roman Polanski still gets Oscar nominations. People don’t listen to women.

[Morpheus]

That one initial accusation against Spacey was taken seriously by the press, enough so that Spacey tried to out himself to deflect from the larger issue of pursuing a minor. Multiple women coming forward still elicits disbelief as with Moore and with Trump. More Republicans are coming around to condemning Moore but Trump still gets away with calling all of his accusers liars.