Chrissie

A Who Sent the Catspaw Theory

232 posts in this topic

12 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Well it certainly seems to steer away from Mance but doesn't discount any other theory and doesn't point to Joffrey at all especially as there's tons of evidence that points to it not being Joffrey in the first two books.

There isn't, though. No evidence points away from Joffrey. 

12 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Oh really? Almost everything in the story has multiple possibilities from Jon's parentage to the purple wedding to just about anything.

We know who killed Jon Arryn. We know who the maiden with the purple serpents in her hair is, and we know who poisoned Joff's wine. Lots of minor mysteries have been resolved: this is on that list. 

12 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Martin is very careful about not revealing things to fans and will give misleading answers.

He doesn't. He gives ambiguous or non-committal answers, but never misleading ones. 

The above quotes are clear and not ambiguous at all. This mystery is solvable from information in the first two books and is resolved in ASOS. 

12 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I really don't know how you get from that to confirmation Joffrey did it.

I have explained that, but to recap: GRRM introducing a red herring in the very book where he says the mystery will be resolved would be nonsensical. No alternative explanation is provided in that book and no alternative theory receives any support. We may presume that if the issue has been 'resolved', it will not be reopened, so what purpose would be served by trying to pull the wool over the readers' eyes in this manner? That goes directly against what he says - that ASOS will resolve the question, not that ASOS will further muddy the waters. 

12 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

The story has multiple red herrings everywhere. The quote implies Mance is a red herring that is obviously intentional. I would love to know why Martin does it so much if there's some philosophy behind it or whatever. But you can't deny it's effective it has people talking about these mysteries years later. 

Red herrings are one thing. Playing silly buggers with the reader is quite another. An author can always 'cheat' the reader because only the author can say what the 'truth' is in their story. GRRM likes his mysteries, but he plays them straight: if he says you can figure it out from the first two books, you can. If he says ASOS will resolve the question, it does. 

12 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Where are you getting the "wanted to be stronger than Robert" motive from? That's not Jaime's conclusion. Jaime's conclusion that he wanted to impress Robert to get "a pat on the head".

Slightly different ways of expressing similar motives. I prefer my way, but the difference is of absolutely no importance. Cruelty undoubtedly also played a part. Few people do a thing for one clear, easily described psychological motive. 

No other candidate fits better, as I have already noted. Their personalities, their motives, their opportunities, none of these fit. None would have done this the way it was done, and it's not credible that some would have done it at all. 

12 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Ultimately it seems that you're saying that Martin has concluded this mystery in a very clumsy, illogical and vague way full of author error.

No. I'm saying that if the author resolves a mystery in a way you don't find satisfactory, that doesn't mean it has not been resolved at all. 

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3 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Robert, we're told, agrees with this but it's also clear he would never go through with it. 

How so?

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1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

There are two relevant quotes in SSM:

Another SSM:

Quote

[Did Littlefinger influence Joffrey to try and kill Bran?]

Well, Littlefinger did have a certain hidden inflouence [sic] over Joff... but he was not at Winterfell, and that needs to be remembered.

In his response Martin doesn't deny Joffrey's blame, just casting doubt on Littlefinger being involved . If Martin intended for LF or Mance to be the culprit, he might have responded with something like, "Oh, so you believe Joffrey sent the assassin?"

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1 hour ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

It's really not enough, not even close. And Joffrey is not the only one considered, that's false I'm afraid. I don't really put any value in the first two quotes I don't think any of that points to Joffrey.

George clearly states that ASOS resolves the mystery of who sent the murderer.

The only thing that can be constructed as a "resolution" to the mystery is Tyrion and Jaime's deduction that Joffrey did it, specially because both their thoughts reach to the conclusion that there's no doubt about it. In the whole book no other candidate is put forward by anyone. And of course there's not any clear hint or revelation that could let us identify the culprit, as that would have been detected by now (or would be so obscure that could not be defined as a "resolution").

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1 hour ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Same for any of them. The dagger is a mystery in all of the cases, most of all Joffrey.

 

Not in Myrcella's case. For her it was only random plain dagger. She picked it up accidentally or maybe just because it looked plain. Dagger's mystery solved.

Only people think I am crazy because of this Myrcella theory.

But it causes least of contradictions.

Motive mercy killing, Myrcella good girl, she cares about mercy and minds Robert's and Jaime's judgement on that matter.  Opportunity terrible plan, easily caught, but only because she was stranger to Valyrian steel. She had easy access to Robert's weapons.

Hiring a catspaw - that's a bit complicated. But Myrcella was royal princess and people obey her. Knights of the KG beat Sansa, because Joffrey told them to, even Arys Oakheart, who was quite nice guy otherwise. And they were annointed knights, noblemen. Myrcella's task, on the other hand, was act of mercy. Assassin didn't plan to harm anyone else. Catelyn's presence in Bran's room was unexpected.

And it's all gets more acceptable if we assume that cat's-paw was not picked up from strangers who followed Robert's train but from loyal servants of Myrcella. He might only look wildly after living  for some time in stables.

I am not joking.

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Like I said in my response to the Hairy Bear I can't really argue against the app without any knowledge of how it was made and exactly how much oversight Martin had. So I hope you don't mind me cherry picking points that I feel are still relevant. Because of that this is probably also my last post on the subject.

6 minutes ago, mormont said:

There isn't, though. No evidence points away from Joffrey. 

Well first there's he disagrees with the hound's view. I mean he comes out and says that he doesn't care if Bran is dead which is a pretty big clue that he doesn't intend on killing Bran :P

Now you could say that obviously he wouldn't give the order in front of Tyrion and a bunch of squires. But he disagrees with the hound, if he'd said "you're right i hope he dies soon" a totally non committal agreement that would point to him no more than it would the hound or many others. But he disagrees and says that Bran is not a problem.

Then you have the dagger. Why steal any dagger? Why not use anything else? He's comatose just hold his nose shut that'll do the job.It's either an act of unfathomable stupidity on Joffrey's part or the dagger was used intentionally to point blame at the royal house. To me this points so strongly to either Mance or Littlefinger who have motive for using the dagger over any other conceivable object.On top of that he's supposedly giving it to a lowborn freerider. Or I guess you could say it's author error that Martin needed the dagger for the littlefinger scene with Cat so Cat would have a reason to kidnap Tyrion. So Dagger ex machina aka bad writing.

Apart from that pointing away from Joffrey as I stated there are far better explanations than Joffrey so that is the evidence that points away from Joffrey. I'd rather attack the evidence that points to him. That's the usual way you disprove something you point out the holes in the evidence that someone else is presenting. It's Tyrion that provides the most evidence so lets examine that.

Tyrion first believes that it's Joffrey in a conversation about Valyrian steal where Joffrey says that he's "No stranger to Valyrian Steel". That's enough evidence to convince Tyrion.

Is it that unreasonable that Joffrey has seen Valyrian steel before other than the dagger? I don't think so, actually not at all. Santigar seems to imply that he's shown Joff some before. Ned didn't show Joff Ice while he was at winterfell or Ilyn Payne? Robert has never shown Joff Valyrian Steel? No Lord visiting court has ever brought a Valyrian steel sword with him and shown the young prince? There are hundreds of Valyrian blades so many that this dagger is not a prized possession. So we start with a faulty assumption.

It's suggested to the reader that Joffrey has seen dragon bone before. It's a suggestion of more evidence.

We know other weapons are made of dragon bone and yes it's rare but there are also a ton of Dragon bones in the cellar underneath their feet. I don't think it's unreasonable that Joff has seen Dragon Bone. Joffrey goes on to say that Dragon Bone is too plain and that he would prefer a jewel encrusted dagger. So when choosing a dagger Joff would go for a flashy one instead of a plain one.

Tyrion remembers the conversation with the Hound. Incorrectly.

Tyrion remembers Joff saying "Send a dog to kill a wolf". What he really says is "send a dog to kill a dog". So Joffrey sending his dog the hound to kill Bran's dog Summer. Yet Tyrion believes he's saying send a dog to kill Bran. Either this is author error or it's intentionally meant to cast doubt on this evidence to show that Tyrion's evidence is unreliable.

Tyrion thinks it's smart to wait until they left winterfell yet Joff is stupid enough to use an identifying dagger

Make up your mind Tyrion

Tyrion comes back to the Valyrian steel quote "I am no stranger to valyrian steel. but he had been hadn't he? Else he would never have been so foolish as to pick littlefinger's knife."

Even Tyrion can't reconcile that amount of stupidity and the original piece of evidence that makes him think of Joff. To me this seems like Martin is telling us Tyrion is completely wrong.

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Red herrings are one thing. Playing silly buggers with the reader is quite another. An author can always 'cheat' the reader because only the author can say what the 'truth' is in their story. GRRM likes his mysteries, but he plays them straight: if he says you can figure it out from the first two books, you can. If he says ASOS will resolve the question, it does. 

So how do you reconcile this supposed evidence that you believe confirms Joffrey as the killer with your statement about Martin not playing silly buggers. If you're right about Joffrey then George is certainly playing a bit of silly buggery here or he's blowing the Joffrey theory out of the water by providing utterly fallacious evidence or it's guilty of author error and deus ex machina or he changed his mind from the time he responded to fans. Or something else?

 

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Slightly different ways of expressing similar motives. I prefer my way, but the difference is of absolutely no importance. Cruelty undoubtedly also played a part. Few people do a thing for one clear, easily described psychological motive. 

No I don't think so. It completely changes the motive. Either he wanted a pat on the head which comes from the text or he wanted to prove to himself (or someone else) that he was stronger than his father which doesn't. They are two completely different motivations. Two contradictory feelings, approval or getting the better of someone. I was asking for evidence of wanting to out do his father as I may be forgetting something.

I'll say that Jaime provides much better logic than Tyrion at least with Jaime there is a motive. But in that conversation also implicates Robert and I'd say Cersei. Since she mentions that she had a conversation with Tyrion that never happened in the books. Maybe it got edited out? Maybe her side of that conversation is all a lie. Which would then mean Joffrey has no motive. Regardless of whether she is lying it doesn't confirm anything as there's at least two people implicated in that conversation.

So there you go you have no evidence that Joffrey did it. It's all based on assumptions and highly fallacious drunken reasoning from Tyrion.  Oh and fan e-mails which say nothing about Joffrey. I'm done.

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17 minutes ago, Pukisbaisals said:

Not in Myrcella's case. For her it was only random plain dagger. She picked it up accidentally or maybe just because it looked plain. Dagger's mystery solved.

Only people think I am crazy because of this Myrcella theory.

But it causes least of contradictions.

Motive mercy killing, Myrcella good girl, she cares about mercy and minds Robert's and Jaime's judgement on that matter.  Opportunity terrible plan, easily caught, but only because she was stranger to Valyrian steel. She had easy access to Robert's weapons.

Hiring a catspaw - that's a bit complicated. But Myrcella was royal princess and people obey her. Knights of the KG beat Sansa, because Joffrey told them to, even Arys Oakheart, who was quite nice guy otherwise. And they were annointed knights, noblemen. Myrcella's task, on the other hand, was act of mercy. Assassin didn't plan to harm anyone else. Catelyn's presence in Bran's room was unexpected.

And it's all gets more acceptable if we assume that cat's-paw was not picked up from strangers who followed Robert's train but from loyal servants of Myrcella. He might only look wildly after living  for some time in stables.

I am not joking.

You know what, I'd buy Myrcella over Joffrey. This makes actual logical sense compared to Tyrion's evidence against Joff. :D

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1 hour ago, Chrissie said:

How so?

There's a line by Jaime in that same conversation where he says something like "what Robert would say in his cups he would angrily deny the next day". There's also his niece who is disfigured surely he'd have had more mercy for her when she was suffering grey scale than his friend's son who is comatose. The second bit is just speculation on my part.

It's possible Robert did it. Perhaps I shouldn't have said "it's clear".

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1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

George clearly states that ASOS resolves the mystery of who sent the murderer.

The only thing that can be constructed as a "resolution" to the mystery is Tyrion and Jaime's deduction that Joffrey did it, specially because both their thoughts reach to the conclusion that there's no doubt about it. In the whole book no other candidate is put forward by anyone. And of course there's not any clear hint or revelation that could let us identify the culprit, as that would have been detected by now (or would be so obscure that could not be defined as a "resolution").

OK try to disregard the e-mails for a second and just review the evidence as written in the books. Does it make sense that Joffrey did it based on Tyrion and Jaime's reasoning. I'd say no. Now bring the e-mails back in and see if that conforms to their illogical conclusions. To me it doesn't. I have to take what's written in the text as a higher piece of evidence than fan e-mails particularly those ambiguous non-committal e-mails. 

 

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 I'd say no.

That's not evidence. The reasoning from the characters, and Joffrey's reaction to Tyrion's description of the Valyrian steel dagger after Joffrey revealed he's handled a Valyrian steel blade before, is simply the only solution that exists in the text. Joffrey did it to prove himself strong, and perhaps with just a bit of thought of spiting his uncle Tyrion who publicly humiliated him over his attitude towards Bran. That's all. Means, motive, and opportunity all line up. 

If you want to shut everything out but your own reasoning, why are you bothering arguing with people about it?

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So I first suggested Mance as a humorous option... but if we are gonna consider him seriously...

Quote

The man had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills. Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall. It made Bran's skin prickle to think of it.

He is mentioned in Bran's first chapter, the first chapter of game of thrones...

Quote

"You're as stupid as you are ugly, Hali," said the tall woman. "The boy's worth nothing dead, but alive … gods be damned, think what Mance would give to have Benjen Stark's own blood to hostage!"

And we know Mance has a thing for Starks... so he had a motive.
 

Quote

 

but the Night's Watch is only a shadow of what we were, and who remains to oppose the wildlings besides us? The Lord of Winterfell is dead, and his heir has marched his strength south to fight the Lannisters. The wildlings may never again have such a chance as this. I knew Mance Rayder, Jon. He is an oathbreaker, yes . . . but he has eyes to see, and no man has ever dared to name him faintheart."

 

The Lord is dead and Rob marched south partially because of the assasination attempt on Bran! Mance might break guestright, and he's not faint of heart... he had the will and more motive.

 
Quote

 

"But," Jon objected, "the Wall . . ."
"The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone. I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse. All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and my lute gained me easy acceptance." He laughed. "I know every bawdy song that's ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father's meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp . . . and made passing note of Lord Eddard's children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels."

 

Mance was there, had a bag of silver, and was eyeing the Stark children (note he's talking to Jon... might be subtly not talking about Jon). He had Opportunity

Quote

But when the dead walk, walls and stakes and swords mean nothing. You cannot fight the dead, Jon Snow. No man knows that half so well as me." He gazed up at the darkening sky and said, "The crows may have helped us more than they know. I'd wondered why we'd suffered no attacks. But there's still a hundred leagues to go, and the cold is rising.

Mance's true enemys are the Others... and that brings us to the knife...

 
Quote

 

"I know," said Jon Snow.
Tormund turned back. "You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?" 
We will see, Jon thought, remembering the things that Sam had told him, the things he'd found in his old books. Longclaw had been forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragonflame and set with spells. Dragonsteel, Sam called it. Stronger than any common steel, lighter, harder, sharper … But words in a book were one thing. The true test came in battle.

 

It was the Winterfell Library that was burned "as a distraction", and it was a Valyrian Steel weapon that was stolen. It's possible Mance stole the dagger, and only after Bran fell decided to give it to an assassin to sow desension among the kneelers by having Bran killed.

And finally for the poetic justice (Mance met Dalla on his return from Winterfell, also it was Robert's dagger and Cersei kills him) more than any real evidence:

"A man can own a woman or a man can own a knife," Ygritte told him, "but no man can own both. Every little girl learns that from her mother." She raised her chin defiantly and gave her thick red hair a shake. "And men can't own the land no more'n they can own the sea or the sky. You kneelers think you do, but Mance is going t' show you different."

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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1 hour ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Well first there's he disagrees with the hound's view. I mean he comes out and says that he doesn't care if Bran is dead which is a pretty big clue that he doesn't intend on killing Bran :P

Not caring at one point doesn't mean that you are opposed to it at all points. 

1 hour ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Then you have the dagger. Why steal any dagger? Why not use anything else? He's comatose just hold his nose shut that'll do the job.

OK, so the plotter must be inexperienced at this kind of thing - like Joffrey is, for example. 

1 hour ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

It's either an act of unfathomable stupidity on Joffrey's part or the dagger was used intentionally to point blame at the royal house.

The latter requires a lot of cruft: someone with a motive to blame this on Robert or his household, who knows that the dagger exists and that it belongs to Robert, who has access to the dagger, and critically who knows that the dagger will be discovered as the murder weapon (which it wouldn't have been without Cat's unforeseen and unplanned intervention). 

The former requires that Joff does stupid things. Which he does, all the time. 

1 hour ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Apart from that pointing away from Joffrey as I stated there are far better explanations than Joffrey so that is the evidence that points away from Joffrey.

That's begging the question, I'm afraid. 

1 hour ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

So how do you reconcile this supposed evidence that you believe confirms Joffrey as the killer with your statement about Martin not playing silly buggers. If you're right about Joffrey then George is certainly playing a bit of silly buggery here or he's blowing the Joffrey theory out of the water by providing utterly fallacious evidence or it's guilty of author error and deus ex machina or he changed his mind from the time he responded to fans. Or something else?

The 'something else' is the point already made: that you finding this evidence unconvincing does not mean that it is not, in fact, the explanation.  

In any case, the in-text explanation doesn't affect the main,out-of-text evidence, which is: we are told this mystery is resolved, only one explanation is offered, it is not credible that this explanation was an intentional mislead by the author, there is no prospect that the subject will ever be revisited, and so the explanation offered is the end of the story. 

1 hour ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

No I don't think so. It completely changes the motive. Either he wanted a pat on the head which comes from the text or he wanted to prove to himself (or someone else) that he was stronger than his father which doesn't. They are two completely different motivations. Two contradictory feelings, approval or getting the better of someone.

They're not contradictory, but as I said, it changes nothing. 

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30 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

 

That's not evidence. The reasoning from the characters, and Joffrey's reaction to Tyrion's description of the Valyrian steel dagger after Joffrey revealed he's handled a Valyrian steel blade before, is simply the only solution that exists in the text. Joffrey did it to prove himself strong, and perhaps with just a bit of thought of spiting his uncle Tyrion who publicly humiliated him over his attitude towards Bran. That's all. Means, motive, and opportunity all line up. 

If you want to shut everything out but your own reasoning, why are you bothering arguing with people about it?

Wow I was just thinking about trying to bring you into this conversation but I didn't want to bother you. Proof of a psychic link? Probably not. You were brought up on the other page regarding "the app" you worked on. I had a question regarding whether Joffrey was categorically confirmed as the catspaw by Mr Martin to you or Linda in the process of making the app? I've never seen or used the app and have no idea how you made it or how much Mr Martin was involved. 

Anyway, I'd agree it's not evidence that's kind of my whole point. I'd call it anti evidence, Tyrion is clearly being shown as being wrong in his assessment of Joffrey. Yet that's somehow being turned into confirmation he's right. 

Joffrey's reaction is an interesting one. Because that relies solely on the readers perception or partly Tyrion's as well. Joffrey's reaction is completely to be expected if out of nowhere the guy you've just insulted and is obviously angry is offering you a nice new Valyrian steel dagger. He's surprised and confused.

But it's not the only solution that exists in the text. Mance is the most obvious he was there he brought silver he had motive even if you only count the mercy side of things. Many others have brought forward arguments supplied with quotes for many other suspects. 

"Joffrey did it to prove himself strong". Same as for Mormont where is that in the text? Honestly it could be there and I've forgotten it but I can't find it. It's very different to Jaime's explanation.

ooh bit rude at the end there buddy. I'm sorry you have that perception of me. In fact I think it's the opposite way around. You guys are obsessed with these fan e-mails. That you somehow think trumps what's written, I don't get it. Perhaps it's like the old boys club mentality where you've heard the same thing so many times that it becomes true whether or not it's logical. I mean no offence with that it happens to everyone and I feel it may be the same thing here. You've convinced yourself the fan e-mails are gospel I think the text implies no guilt for Joffrey meaning the e-mails don't matter. 

If you or Linda have had it categorically confirmed by George in the process of making the app I will accept it. As that's the biggest piece of evidence I've heard.

Edited by Banner Without Brothers

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43 minutes ago, Ran said:

, is simply the only solution that exists in the text.

. Means, motive, and opportunity all line up. 

If you want to shut everything out but your own reasoning, why are you bothering arguing with people about it?

I'm not saying you're wrong about Jeof or any other inside information you have, but this reaction is pretty hypocritical 

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3 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

It's either an act of unfathomable stupidity on Joffrey's part or the dagger was used intentionally to point blame at the royal house.

You realize that Cat "wasn't s'posed to be there", right? 

It's a pretty big leap in logic to think that the the perpetrator wanted the dagger to be found after the attack to point blame on the royal house. 

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I'm not saying you're wrong about Jeof or any other inside information you have, but this reaction is pretty hypocritical 

In what sense is this hypocritical? I'm at a loss.

I say this as the person who spun the Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory for years on previous iterations of this forum, which pinned the blame on Littlefinger, but ASoS put together means, motive, and opportunity for Joffrey that outweighed everyone else, and Joffrey's reaction to the description of the knife in relation to his suggesting he had handled it was damning, as was his clumsy attempt to pretend he didn't know what Tyrion was talking about.

It's Joffrey. The text says it with two characters reason their way to it, and GRRM says it repeatedly.

Regarding the app, GRRM was sent the full text of it for review and signed off on it.

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6 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

 

There's also the fact that the app (compiled by Ran and Linda but with some degree of revision from GRRM) states: "Joffrey steals a Valyrian dagger from his father and hires a servant to kill Bran. "

I need this app.

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58 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

You realize that Cat "wasn't s'posed to be there", right? 

It's a pretty big leap in logic to think that the the perpetrator wanted the dagger to be found after the attack to point blame on the royal house. 

The question stands, why would Jeof steal the knife? The assassin got paid a bag of silver, what is the logic behind Jeof throwing in a fancy dagger?

The assassin is going after a cripple in a coma, a pillow would work, why give him the valyrian steel dagger?

I know Cat almost always gives horrible advise, but this bit is just remarkably off base... even if it was Jeof, this can't have been his logic... and we know it wasn't Jaime or Cersei from their povs... if we stop listening to this person who was literally mad, hysterically laughing, after the attack, and look at the evidence... it's really hard to believe it was any Lannister.

 
Quote

 

"Why would anyone want to kill Bran?" Robb said. "Gods, he's only a little boy, helpless, sleeping . . . "
 
Catelyn gave her firstborn a challenging look. "If you are to rule in the north, you must think these things through, Robb. Answer your own question. Why would anyone want to kill a sleeping child?"
 
"Do you have the answer yet?"
 
"Someone is afraid Bran might wake up," Robb said, "afraid of what he might say or do, afraid of something he knows."
 
Nooooooooope!
 
Catelyn gave her firstborn a challenging look. "If you are to rule in the north, you must think these things through, Robb. Answer your own question. Why would anyone want to kill a sleeping child?"
 
To start a war...
Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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38 minutes ago, Ran said:

In what sense is this hypocritical? I'm at a loss.

I'm not trying to fight or anything, ceded from the beginning you are probably right about the Jeof thing and whatever else, we don't have the same access to reliable information to suplement the text...

but to accuse someone of shutting out all other reasoning in the same post as saying something is the only possibility is the definition of hypocritical.

Anyway, once again you would know better, but I still don't understand why Jeff would give an assassin a super special knife to kill a cripple in a coma... I just don't understand... we see characters come to wrong conclusions all the time, why are we so sure in this case?

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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Quote

 I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves.

The man who said these words didn't kill Daenerys but we suspect that he killed his childhood friend's son.

If you are not pleased with Joffrey then try Bloodraven. Maybe he warged Catspaw just as Rhaenys's cat.

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