Was Knight's King was a Bastard Stark

[Kenton Stark]

I was watching a video the other day that brought up something I had always wondered about. Why was their such a prejudice against kids born out of wedlock? The video suggested that the Night's King was a bastard named Jon Snow. I can't remember all the details, but some very interesting arguments were made.

Some of the video's points were, The Great Other's name must never be spoken, that's why Jon Snow's name is a big deal. Ygritte said when she first heard Jon's name.. She flinched and said "an evil name."

I think this may be why their is such prejudice against bastard children in westeros. Think about the way people describe bastards in the books...traitors, deceitful, etc. If the Knight's King was a bastard who's name must be erased, then its easy to see how all children born out of wedlock would suffer by association.

It may also explain why there is less prejudice in Dorne, because of the distance from the wall and the years of a separate culture from the rest of the seven kingdoms.

Interested to hear your thoughts

 

 

[The Sunland Lord]

I don't know about fan theories but I know this: Old Nan is convinced that he was a Stark. And not a bastard. At least not specifically mentioned he was a Stark bastard.

And Old Nan got things right very often.

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I don't know about fan theories but I know this: Old Nan is convinced that he was a Stark. And not a bastard. At least not specifically mentioned he was a Stark bastard.

And Old Nan got things right very often.

Yeah I definitely think she's a witch or can see into the future and possibly the past.

I mean out of everyone in the world she(having no apparent evidence) was right in saying dragons had been reborn even though Dany and her children hadn't really gained any notoriety.

I like the theory of her being a lover of BR.

Yes I know "Bloodraven  did it" is as old as the sun.

[300 H&H Magnum]

He was a Stark but whether bastard or true is not known.  More than a few proposals suggested a new NK will rise and it will be Jon Snow.  History repeating itself.  NK1 betrayed his duties for a woman and Jon betrayed his for a girl.  There is a parallel there.  One proposal speculates that Jon will take the place of the temptation this time around and tempt Arya to join the others.  Jon becomes the Nightking who will tempt a Stark to betray the living.  Jon = NK, Arya = NQ. 

[The Sunland Lord]

4 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

He was a Stark but whether bastard or true is not known.  More than a few proposals suggested a new NK will rise and it will be Jon Snow.  History repeating itself.  NK1 betrayed his duties for a woman and Jon betrayed his for a girl.  There is a parallel there.  One proposal speculates that Jon will take the place of the temptation this time around and tempt Arya to join the others.  Jon becomes the Nightking who will tempt a Stark to betray the living.  Jon = NK, Arya = NQ. 

Except that supposedly the woman the Night's King abandoned the Watch for was an Other. Jon fucked Ygritte, yes. But he didn't leave the Watch for her, nor was Ygritte an Other.

If you only refer to your theory about Arya, and not Ygritte, Arya is his half-sister (or a cousin) and she isn't an Other, too. History says that this Other woman came out of somewhere and seduced the NK, not the other way around. It wouldn't be repeating itself that way.

That being said, who knows how it really was, since all the records about him were erased, and we only got so little about him. Maybe you will be proven to be right?

If he indeed had children, where did they left? It's never said that his children were killed nor they were turned into Others. It's said that he made sacrifices to the Others, but we don't know in what way. Maybe some of his kids were turned into Others (like Craster did with his male kids), but some stayed on the human side and found themselves a place in Westeros.

[The Sunland Lord]

On 1/24/2018 at 3:47 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah I definitely think she's a witch or can see into the future and possibly the past.

I mean out of everyone in the world she(having no apparent evidence) was right in saying dragons had been reborn even though Dany and her children hadn't really gained any notoriety.

I like the theory of her being a lover of BR.

Yes I know "Bloodraven  did it" is as old as the sun.

Perhaps she was a wildling woman which came to Winterfell, like Osha did. After all, Hodor has Giant's blood and he is her relative.

Osha knows some crazy things, too, and takes care of the little Starks, like Old Nan did when she came in there. 

[kissdbyfire]

39 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Perhaps she was a wildling woman which came to Winterfell, like Osha did. After all, Hodor has Giant's blood and he is her relative.

Osha knows some crazy things, too, and takes care of the little Starks, like Old Nan did when she came in there. 

Hodor is so tall b/c he descends from ser Duncan the Tall, who had a fling w/ Old Nan.

ADwD, Bran III 

“Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor.”

[Lady Dacey]

6 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

He was a Stark but whether bastard or true is not known

If we assume Old Nan is right he was not a bastard: 

Quote

 

"You have five trueborn children," Jon said. "Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord."

Bran saw his father's face change, saw the other men exchange glances. He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment. Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done. The count had come right only because Jon had omitted himself. He had included the girls, included even Rickon, the baby, but not the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own. 

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

"The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark," Jon pointed out. "I am no Stark, Father."

A Snow is not a Stark. If Old Nan is wrong, well, he could be a Snow, a Bolton, anything, even a Lannister . 

You know, bastards in real life for a long time got pretty much the same  treatment they get on Westeros, and I'm pretty sure that's more connected to inheritance and strict moral codes than to some evil bastard we've all collectively forgotten about. 

[The Sunland Lord]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hodor is so tall b/c he descends from ser Duncan the Tall, who had a fling w/ Old Nan.

ADwD, Bran III 

“Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor.”

Is it known that they had something? Old Nan and Duncan?

[kissdbyfire]

15 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Is it known that they had something? Old Nan and Duncan?

There's the quote I provided above, from Bran's weirwood vision going chronologically backwards in time. He sees the skinny girl kissing a knight as tall as Hodor right after he sees the pregnant woman emerging from the pool and begging the OG for a son to avenge her, and right before a fierce youth making weirwood arrows. So, the things Bran sees not only go backwards in time chronologically, but they seem to grow further and further apart. 

The pregnant woman comes right after young Lyanna and Benjen, and the skinny girl/tall knight right before the youth making arrows. So we have Lyanna and Benjen and possibly and very likely Brandon Snow, the bastard half-brother of Torrhen Stark, KitN at the time of the Conquest. And this places skinny girl/tall knight between the Conquest and Eddard and his siblings' childhoods. We know Dunk & Egg are going North:

TMK:

“When the tourney's done, Egg and I mean to go north. Take service at Winterfell, and fight for the Starks against the ironmen.”

And Martin has said we will meet/have met three (or was it four?) of Dunk's descendants in the current timeline. Brienne is one, as he confirmed it a few years back. That leaves two more, and given the clues (Bran's vision, Hodor being so tall, and the fact that D&E are going to Winterfell)... I'd say it's very very likely. 

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

Catlyn seems clear that her dislike of Jon stems from the reminder of Neds infidelity and the potential of him trying to claim Winterfell over her children.  While I can't condone her treatment of Jon, it is perfectly logical.

[The Sunland Lord]

6 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Catlyn seems clear that her dislike of Jon stems from the reminder of Neds infidelity and the potential of him trying to claim Winterfell over her children.  While I can't condone her treatment of Jon, it is perfectly logical.

What are you hinting to? Sorry, I really don't get it, not trying to be a jerk.

[aryagonnakill#2]

10 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

What are you hinting to? Sorry, I really don't get it, not trying to be a jerk.

That bastards are disliked for regular reasons nothing special like the NK was a bastard.

[The Sunland Lord]

5 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

That bastards are disliked for regular reasons nothing special like the NK was a bastard.

Now I get it, thank you.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 1/23/2018 at 1:12 PM, Kenton Stark said:

Interested to hear your thoughts

Stay away from fan fic youtube videos about the novels. They are worse than any theory posten in here. At least in here, people can be informed as to exactly how foolish their theories can be. Not so on the youtubes. So remember, if there is literally no info about it, as in the identity of the nights king, there is nothing to base a theory on or extrapolate from. So it is bogus. Nan said the nights king could have been a man from a number of great houses in the north, and she said stark last to scare an 8 year old bran. That is the last of any info on said nights king.  

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Stay away from fan fic youtube videos about the novels. They are worse than any theory posten in here. At least in here, people can be informed as to exactly how foolish their theories can be. Not so on the youtubes. So remember, if there is literally no info about it, as in the identity of the nights king, there is nothing to base a theory on or extrapolate from. So it is bogus. Nan said the nights king could have been a man from a number of great houses in the north, and she said stark last to scare an 8 year old bran. That is the last of any info on said nights king.  

This. And the bold isn't brought up as often as it should. As in, every time someone mentions ON saying the NK was a Stark, they should bring up this small detail as well. ON knows Bran likes the scary stories, and so she obliges by making her story as scary as she can. 

[The Commentator]

On 1/23/2018 at 5:34 PM, The Sunland Lord said:

I don't know about fan theories but I know this: Old Nan is convinced that he was a Stark. And not a bastard. At least not specifically mentioned he was a Stark bastard.

And Old Nan got things right very often.

A Stark bastard is still a Stark in terms of DNA.  Bastardry is a legal and social concept.  In any case, yeah, it fits if the Others are of Stark DNA that they would seek to find someone compatible.  We have seen how the Valyrians kept their blood pure to preserve the abilities to bond with dragons.  Perhaps the Stark DNA, which we know carries skin changing abilities, would be sought after by the Others whom we know use something similar to control their wights.  

[kissdbyfire]

There's so much stuff people claim "we know" when in fact we don't...

Also, if the WWs need skinchanging DNA, they can find it aplenty north of the Wall. In fact, it's more prevalent north of the Wall than south. 

[Lady Dacey]

35 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This. And the bold isn't brought up as often as it should. As in, every time someone mentions ON saying the NK was a Stark, they should bring up this small detail as well. ON knows Bran likes the scary stories, and so she obliges by making her story as scary as she can. 

Old Nan has some great source material for us to work with and speculate about, but I can't help but laugh at people who built theories on the assumption that "Nan must be right, she knows so much" because seriously: according to her stories wildlings drink blood from human skulls. So there. We must take what she brings to the table with a grain of salt. Maybe there never was a Night King  maybe we'll never know! 

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Old Nan has some great source material for us to work with and speculate about, but I can't help but laugh at people who built theories on the assumption that "Nan must be right, she knows so much" because seriously: according to her stories wildlings drink blood from human skulls. So there. We must take what she brings to the table with a grain of salt. Maybe there never was a Night King  maybe we'll never know! 

Exactly that. Old Nan has lots of good stuff to share, but as with so much else in ASoIaF, the tricky part is separating the wheat from the chaff. The notion that ON is some sort of oracle is, quite frankly, ludicrous. .