Red Griffin & The White Wolf

[ScaledBird]

There has been a lot of discussion on what Jon Snow's real name is if R+L=J turns out to be true. Will he be an Aemon, Viserys etc but there is not much talk on why he was given the name Jon. I always assumed that Ned gave Jon his name to hide his true identity from Robert Baratheon but what if Jon was chosen by someone else and not Ned or Lyanna. What if Rhaegar chose the name to honour the man who loved him, Jon Connington. 

Many like me also believe Aegon to be fake. Blakefyre or just the daughter of a Lysene whore, he is not the son of Rhaegar. If this comes out while Jon Connington is still alive he may abandon the cause. He was already angry at what Varys put him through and he only did it for the son of Rhaegar. The truth could come out at the same time as Jon Snow being the son of Rhaegar and lead Jon Connington to the true son of the man he loved and his name sake. 

(Also the dorment Greyscale at the wall and Jon Connington's Greyscaled arm could bring true the fears of Val at the wall)

[Leo of House Cartel]

@ScaledBird Nice post dude, I have often wondered about Jon's naming.

I tend to think that if Rhaegar and Lyanna named Jon it would have been a Targaryen name befitting the PTWP. "Arthur" would be a good shout too.

If it was Eddard's decision then I think him choosing the name "Jon" served dual purposes.

With Robb named for Robert Baratheon, Ned honoured his other friend Jon Arryn by naming his second born for him - though naming a bastard after a great Lord could be looked at by some as disrespectful. I wonder what Jon Arryn thought of this?

Ned would be able to honour the boy's true father by naming the boy after Rhaegar's pal JonCon, as opposed to naming him "Arthur" or "Rhaegar", named which would get Robert Baratheon (and many others) asking questions.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 2/27/2018 at 8:08 AM, ScaledBird said:

There has been a lot of discussion on what Jon Snow's real name is if R+L=J turns out to be true. Will he be an Aemon, Viserys etc but there is not much talk on why he was given the name Jon. I always assumed that Ned gave Jon his name to hide his true identity from Robert Baratheon but what if Jon was chosen by someone else and not Ned or Lyanna. What if Rhaegar chose the name to honour the man who loved him, Jon Connington. 

The Jon Con idea is a could be type situation, in my opinion. Could be that Lyanna and Ned had a brief chat about the boy and this was mentioned. Could be.

There is this from GRRM:

5. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

GRRM: Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1202/

TO BE VERY CLEAR SINCE MANY LATER IN THIS THREAD COULD NOT MAKE SENSE OF WHAT I WAS SAYING HERE, Ned named Jon Snow after Jon Arryn- END OF STORY. I just did not feel the need to completely bash the thread host for simply asking a question. 

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Many like me also believe Aegon to be fake. Blakefyre or just the daughter of a Lysene whore, he is not the son of Rhaegar. If this comes out while Jon Connington is still alive he may abandon the cause. He was already angry at what Varys put him through and he only did it for the son of Rhaegar. The truth could come out at the same time as Jon Snow being the son of Rhaegar and lead Jon Connington to the true son of the man he loved and his name sake. 

Also could be . This may be part of the reasoning Dany slays the mummer's dragon. A betrayal for her "love" type situation.

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(Also the dorment Greyscale at the wall and Jon Connington's Greyscaled arm could bring true the fears of Val at the wall)

Too true, my scaly feathered friend!

"The maesters may believe what they wish. Ask a woods witch if you would know the truth. The grey death sleeps, only to wake again. The child is not clean!" - Val

 

On 2/27/2018 at 9:42 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

@ScaledBird Nice post dude, I have often wondered about Jon's naming.

I tend to think that if Rhaegar and Lyanna named Jon it would have been a Targaryen name befitting the PTWP. "Arthur" would be a good shout too.

If it was Eddard's decision then I think him choosing the name "Jon" served dual purposes.

With Robb named for Robert Baratheon, Ned honoured his other friend Jon Arryn by naming his second born for him - though naming a bastard after a great Lord could be looked at by some as disrespectful. I wonder what Jon Arryn thought of this?

Ned would be able to honour the boy's true father by naming the boy after Rhaegar's pal JonCon, as opposed to naming him "Arthur" or "Rhaegar", named which would get Robert Baratheon (and many others) asking questions.

I don't know that Robb was named for Robert Baratheon. The short for Robert is just 'Rob'.

This was, however, discussed a little while back in regards to Robb's name, and how it is a clue (that and his personal direwolf head sigil) that Robb is going to die soon in the series. Robb is not a historic northern name (there are literally no other Robb's in the north/Starks), he was named by Catelyn in the Riverlands where he was conceived and born and died. Robb with two b's seems to be a Riverlands name.

If anyone has any interest in the past discussion http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/143993-the-stark-family-not-you-robb/

 

[ScaledBird]

@Leo of House Cartel Jon for Jon Arryn and Jon Connington would make sense. I would expect Ned to have some respect for Jon Connington since he was an honourable enemy (In Jon Connington's second POV chapter he explains the difference between his approach of trying to find Robert Baratheon before the battle of the bells by offering pardons and sparing the innocent people, when someone like Tywin would have burned the town down to kill Robert with the innocents. 

 

One problem with naming Jon for Jon Arryn (and its only a small one) is Jon Arryn is married to Cats sister, Cat hates Jon Snow. Naming his supposed bastard for Jon Arryn could offend Hoster Tully, Cat, Lysa and Jon Arryn (if he cared about bastards and based on Mya Stone being treated well I doubt he does)

[ScaledBird]

@The Fattest Leech I had not though about Robb's name before. I always thought it was in reference to an old book of George R Martin's, the two main characters being Robb and Lyanna... Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark being the connection. But I think you may be right that he is bot named after Robert Baratheon, Robin Arryn is pointed out to be named for Robert. When Robert Baratheon and Ned are in the crypts of Winterfell he tells Ned... if Ned had named Robb for Robert Baratheon surely Ned would not need this pointed out to him. 

 

I like the betrayal for love idea... does that mean that the betrayals mentioned in the prophecies are not betrayals against her but  for her? Someone will betray for Gold in her favour (Second Sons taking Tyrions gold and going to Danys side, For Love could be what you suggested or betrayal for blood, ie someone will betray their cause for Dany's blood/ family)

[The Fattest Leech]

26 minutes ago, ScaledBird said:

@The Fattest Leech I had not though about Robb's name before. I always thought it was in reference to an old book of George R Martin's, the two main characters being Robb and Lyanna... Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark being the connection.

A Song for Lya. I know the story well

Even in that story, Robb is just Robb, which makes me think George uses the two names independently of one another. He plays with the varied character names -vs- character archetypes often throughout his writings. We see over and over again the same character types, but they often have different names.

26 minutes ago, ScaledBird said:

 

But I think you may be right that he is bot named after Robert Baratheon, Robin Arryn is pointed out to be named for Robert. When Robert Baratheon and Ned are in the crypts of Winterfell he tells Ned... if Ned had named Robb for Robert Baratheon surely Ned would not need this pointed out to him. 

 

I like the betrayal for love idea... does that mean that the betrayals mentioned in the prophecies are not betrayals against her but  for her? Someone will betray for Gold in her favour (Second Sons taking Tyrions gold and going to Danys side, For Love could be what you suggested or betrayal for blood, ie someone will betray their cause for Dany's blood/ family)

Prophecy= sharp teeth= no bueno!

It could be that after Dany and Aegon find each other and Dany finds out Aegon is a Blackfyre (whichever way that may work), that maybe Dany will feel betrayed. I don't think she will be happy with that knowing Blackfyre history.

Some other posters speculate that Dany herself will be the betrayer, only she doesn't realize it yet and won't until after it happens.

I know @Lost Melnibonean tends to have some good Dany + Aegon ideas.

[Leo of House Cartel]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I don't know that Robb was named for Robert Baratheon. The short for Robert is just 'Rob'.

This was, however, discussed a little while back in regards to Robb's name, and how it is a clue (that and his personal direwolf head sigil) that Robb is going to die soon in the series. Robb is not a historic northern name (there are literally no other Robb's in the north/Starks), he was named by Catelyn in the Riverlands where he was conceived and born and died. Robb with two b's seems to be a Riverlands name.

If anyone has any interest in the past discussion http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/143993-the-stark-family-not-you-robb/

 

Hey Leech, that's a great point about Robb being a Riverlands name - the topic you posted raises some great points about Red Robb Rivers, as well as the fact Robb Stark was born and died in the RL.

Can't find anything for a Robb Whent or Tully so I wonder who exactly Cat named her son for?

1 hour ago, ScaledBird said:

@Leo of House Cartel Jon for Jon Arryn and Jon Connington would make sense. I would expect Ned to have some respect for Jon Connington since he was an honourable enemy (In Jon Connington's second POV chapter he explains the difference between his approach of trying to find Robert Baratheon before the battle of the bells by offering pardons and sparing the innocent people, when someone like Tywin would have burned the town down to kill Robert with the innocents. 

 

One problem with naming Jon for Jon Arryn (and its only a small one) is Jon Arryn is married to Cats sister, Cat hates Jon Snow. Naming his supposed bastard for Jon Arryn could offend Hoster Tully, Cat, Lysa and Jon Arryn (if he cared about bastards and based on Mya Stone being treated well I doubt he does)

Agreed, if Hoster was the type of guy to hold a grudge against his own brother for so long, due to the Blackfish not accepting his marriage offers, then I would expect him to have an issue with Cat's husband naming Jon after Lysa's husband.

Surely Ned would have taken the potential disrespect of his goodfather into account, considering he was perhaps already going to be in the bad books with Hoster, having "sired a bastard" while Cat was at home with Robb. Naming a bastard after Hoster's other son in law seems like it would have been asking for trouble.

Great idea for a thread btw, the why and how of Jon's name could really open up several cans of worms! 

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Hey Leech, that's a great point about Robb being a Riverlands name - the topic you posted raises some great points about Red Robb Rivers, as well as the fact Robb Stark was born and died in the RL.

Definitely a weird play on names between the two boys of Winterfell, and which has a non-traditional name and which has a regularly occurring North/Stark name.

4 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Can't find anything for a Robb Whent or Tully so I wonder who exactly Cat named her son for?

Good question because I dunno

4 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Great idea for a thread btw, the why and how of Jon's name could really open up several cans of worms! 

Don't you mean wyrms!?!?

(sorry, coffee is kicking the pun factory in to high gear)

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Hey Leech, that's a great point about Robb being a Riverlands name - the topic you posted raises some great points about Red Robb Rivers, as well as the fact Robb Stark was born and died in the RL.

Can't find anything for a Robb Whent or Tully so I wonder who exactly Cat named her son for?

Agreed, if Hoster was the type of guy to hold a grudge against his own brother for so long, due to the Blackfish not accepting his marriage offers, then I would expect him to have an issue with Cat's husband naming Jon after Lysa's husband.

Surely Ned would have taken the potential disrespect of his goodfather into account, considering he was perhaps already going to be in the bad books with Hoster, having "sired a bastard" while Cat was at home with Robb. Naming a bastard after Hoster's other son in law seems like it would have been asking for trouble.

Great idea for a thread btw, the why and how of Jon's name could really open up several cans of worms! 

Imagine if Ned named the baby, later named Jon, Brynden. That would piss Hoster off.

[Dorian Martell's son]

7 hours ago, ScaledBird said:

There has been a lot of discussion on what Jon Snow's real name is if R+L=J turns out to be true. Will he be an Aemon, Viserys etc but there is not much talk on why he was given the name Jon. I always assumed that Ned gave Jon his name to hide his true identity from Robert Baratheon but what if Jon was chosen by someone else and not Ned or Lyanna. What if Rhaegar chose the name to honour the man who loved him, Jon Connington. 

Many like me also believe Aegon to be fake. Blakefyre or just the daughter of a Lysene whore, he is not the son of Rhaegar. If this comes out while Jon Connington is still alive he may abandon the cause. He was already angry at what Varys put him through and he only did it for the son of Rhaegar. The truth could come out at the same time as Jon Snow being the son of Rhaegar and lead Jon Connington to the true son of the man he loved and his name sake. 

(Also the dorment Greyscale at the wall and Jon Connington's Greyscaled arm could bring true the fears of Val at the wall)

Jon's real name is Jon, given to him by his father Ned, named after Ned's second father Jon Arryn 

[Leo of House Cartel]

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Don't you mean wyrms!?!?

(sorry, coffee is kicking the pun factory in to high gear)

 Tremendous!

14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Imagine if Ned named the baby, later named Jon, Brynden. That would piss Hoster off.

 Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

[Lollygag]

Robb being named after Robert matches up with Jon being named after Jon Arryn. All of the Stark kids are named after someone. Most of the Stark kids at this point seem to be some sort of parallel to their namesake or there are hints to this becoming the case in the future. Ned doesn't think of JonCon at all that I can find, so it doesn't follow for me that Ned named Jon Snow for him at all. 

ACOK Catelyn VII

I think Ned Stark loved Robert better than he ever loved his brother or his father . . . or even you, my lady. He was never unfaithful to Robert, was he?" Jaime gave a drunken laugh.

 

Robb/Robert: Like Robert, Robb became a drafted King. Robert went into rebellion over Lyanna, and Robb over Ned. Like Robert, he was ultimately felled by a weakness for women. Robert’s obsession with Lyanna was what poisoned his relationship with Cersei from the start. Unfortunate marriage decisions led to both of their deaths.

Jon/Jon Arryn: I’m not sure why yet, but both Catelyn’s and Sansa’s Vale chapters see a pronounced spike in Jon Snow references. You might make the loosey-goosey case that Jon Snow as a Targ (along with Dany and Aegon) are all in line to inherit the Vale through their Arryn ancestry. Regardless, there has to be a reason for the spike of Jon Snow mentions while in the Vale. Like Jon Arryn, Jon Snow is the victim of an assassination (attempt). Jon Arryn's assassination was pinned on the Lannisters, while Jon Snow's assassination (attempt) was tied to the Lannisters in that Bowen Marsh disagreed vehemently with Jon and also greatly feared the Lannister's wroth. Cersei specifically was blamed for Jon Arryn's death and Cersei had a hit out on Jon Snow via the Marg/Jon plot with Osney.

Bran/Brandon: Named for Brandon Stark his uncle, though Bran’s arc is most closely following that of Bran the Builder.

Rickon/Rickard: Given a pattern of the eldest boys following the path of their namesake to some degree, I suspect Rickon’s arc will follow Rickard’s in some fashion. Rickard is accused rightly or wrongly of Southern Ambitions. Rickon is foreshadowed to be associated with traditional Stark enemies. Rickon befriends the Freys, and there's more in that passage possibly linking Rickon to Ramsey, the Lannisters, and others.  

Sansa/Sansa: The other Sansa was used for marriage power plays as is our Sansa.

Arya/Arya Flint: I suspect there will be some connection here as well. Some connect Arya to Brave Danny Flint. 

 

Also note that with all except Jon/Jon (?), GRRM was careful to not confuse the new first-time reader with too many duplicate names. Rob/Robert would be confusing to the new reader who would assume Rob referred to Robert. Bran is carefully distinguished from uncle Brandon who is never called Bran. Rickon and Rickard are distinguished from each other. The former Sansa Stark and Arya Flint are not mentioned until later.

Doesn’t work for me that Robb is the only Stark kid not named for someone.

While I don't hold that Jon was named for JonCon at all, I wouldn't be shocked at all if this is how it plays out in the plot somehow. 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Robb being named after Robert matches up with Jon being named after Jon Arryn. All of the Stark kids are named after someone. Most of the Stark kids at this point seem to be some sort of parallel to their namesake or there are hints to this becoming the case in the future. Ned doesn't think of JonCon at all that I can find, so it doesn't follow for me that Ned named Jon Snow for him at all. 

This. Without realizing it, Lord Eddard fought a war with Prince Rhaegar for the right to take and name Lyanna's son.