What if Brandon Stark (Ned's Brother) had a bastard?

[Angel Eyes]

This is an offshoot of the Brandon the Barren? thread. 

So I was wondering what would happen if Brandon Stark had a known bastard. Would Ned take the boy to be raised at Winterfell? Leave it with its mother? And what would Catelyn think of it? Both her husband and her betrothed siring bastards, would she refuse to take care of it? Treat it like she does Jon? 

[Rufus Snow]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

This is an offshoot of the Brandon the Barren? thread. 

So I was wondering what would happen if Brandon Stark had a known bastard. Would Ned take the boy to be raised at Winterfell?

Probably, but ...

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Leave it with its mother?

... it would also depend who she is - highborn or commoner, in particular

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And what would Catelyn think of it? Both her husband and her betrothed siring bastards, would she refuse to take care of it? Treat it like she does Jon? 

Now that's a harder one... on one hand she may be more forgiving of Brandon as it would be water under the bridge, and his bastard son would be even less of a threat to her own children than 'Ned's' bastard (because even if both were legitimised, sons come before cousins). On the other hand, it might convince her the whole Stark clan were untrustworthy. Ned put his foot down over Jon staying with him, but would he do the same for Brandon's, or would he have him fostered out and covered up to spare Cat's feelings? Depends what he thought most honourable, really....

[TMIFairy]

IMO Brandon had a bastard.

And that bastard's name is Jon Snow.

With his "wolf blood" on fire Brandon raped some noble girl - Ashara, most likely - while storming from Riverrun to Kings Landing.

To hide the shame and to make the Dayne's keep quiet Ned bribed them with Dawn. Why else not to take such a trophy home?

To hide the shame of "my bro and your betrothed was a rapist" from Cate he claimed Jon as his own.

I disagree with Rufus here - Brandon's bastard, if legitimised, would come BEFORE Ned's children.

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 11:14 AM, Angel Eyes said:

This is an offshoot of the Brandon the Barren? thread. 

So I was wondering what would happen if Brandon Stark had a known bastard. Would Ned take the boy to be raised at Winterfell? Leave it with its mother? And what would Catelyn think of it? Both her husband and her betrothed siring bastards, would she refuse to take care of it? Treat it like she does Jon? 

Ned would take him to Winterfell , and Catelyn would despise him or her .

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On 25/03/2018 at 8:04 PM, TMIFairy said:

To hide the shame and to make the Dayne's keep quiet Ned bribed them with Dawn. Why else not to take such a trophy home?

Because Eddard wasn't the kind of guy to revel in collecting trophies. He admired Arthur Dayne, and had a bit of a fling with Ashara. He therefore acted with kindness and honour.

On 25/03/2018 at 8:04 PM, TMIFairy said:

To hide the shame of "my bro and your betrothed was a rapist" from Cate he claimed Jon as his own.

He didn't have to tell anybody the bastard was the product of rape, or even the son of a Dayne. Could have just claimed that Jon was Brandon's bastard by a consensual relationship with a commoner. Pretty much the same story he told about Jon anyway. 

I don't want to make a whole big thing about this, but I really wish people didn't constantly throw around theories about how X raped Y without evidence. It can be a bit insensitive. 

[Rufus Snow]

On 3/25/2018 at 8:04 PM, TMIFairy said:

I disagree with Rufus here - Brandon's bastard, if legitimised, would come BEFORE Ned's children.

Trueborns still come before legitimized bastards, so Brandon's legit bastard would come between Ned's trueborns and Ned's legit bastard. Ned held the Lordship, Brandon never did.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Trueborns still come before legitimized bastards, so Brandon's legit bastard would come between Ned's trueborns and Ned's legit bastard. Ned held the Lordship, Brandon never did.

There were several wars about this very issue. Just like the question of whether the male line always comes first. It appears the laws of inheritance are vague, and constant sources of disagreement and conflict, in Westros. We can't really make definitive statements about them I don't think. 

[Rufus Snow]

25 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

There were several wars about this very issue. Just like the question of whether the male line always comes first. It appears the laws of inheritance are vague, and constant sources of disagreement and conflict, in Westros. We can't really make definitive statements about them I don't think. 

Yes, this is true. The significance of Ned holding the Lordship boils down partly to 'possession being nine tenths of the Law', and of course Varys' assertion that power resides wherever men believe it does - you can only exercise the 'rights' you can enforce in Westeros. But it is generally accepted that trueborns have precedence, hence Roose taking it for granted that Ramsay would murder any sons Fat Walda might bear:

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A Dance with Dragons - Reek III

The question frightened him. Once he had heard Skinner say that the Bastard had killed his trueborn brother, but he had never dared to believe it. He could be wrong. Brothers die sometimes, it does not mean that they were killed. My brothers died, and I never killed them. "My lord has a new wife to give him sons."

"And won't my bastard love that? Lady Walda is a Frey, and she has a fertile feel to her. I have become oddly fond of my fat little wife. The two before her never made a sound in bed, but this one squeals and shudders. I find that quite endearing. If she pops out sons the way she pops in tarts, the Dreadfort will soon be overrun with Boltons. Ramsay will kill them all, of course. That's for the best. I will not live long enough to see new sons to manhood, and boy lords are the bane of any House. Walda will grieve to see them die, though."

Roose fears a 'boy lord' only because any boy of Walda's would have precedence over Ramsay - according to the law. But what Ramsay might decide will have a greater impact than any law, though.... so if a trueborn son has precedence over an older legitimized bastard son, then even more so over a legitimised bastard uncle or cousin. It's not so much that the law is vague, it is more down to enforcement of it being open for debate - often at sword point.

[Vaedys Targaryen]

I think Catelyn's reaction to the bastard would depend on whether Ned brought him or her home; Cat seems to accept that some men father bastards, but her main problem with Jon is that Ned brought him home to Winterfell and told everyone and their mother that Jon is his, which implies that Cat can accept that her husband has a bastard as long as said bastard is not around her and her own children and isn't a threat to her own children's inheritance.

[Quoth the raven,]

Brandon's bastard is not a threat unless Eddard had the notion to petition his king to make said bastard legit.  Even so, the lordship has already passed to Eddard.  A legitimized Brandon bastard is not going to become as big a threat as a legitimized Jon Snow.  And sure, Eddard would probably take the bastard in.  He's already raising his own bastard in Jon, who I believe is Eddard's bastard.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Roose fears a 'boy lord' only because any boy of Walda's would have precedence over Ramsay - according to the law. But what Ramsay might decide will have a greater impact than any law, though.... so if a trueborn son has precedence over an older legitimized bastard son, then even more so over a legitimised bastard uncle or cousin. It's not so much that the law is vague, it is more down to enforcement of it being open for debate - often at sword point.

I think Ramsay would just be making double, triple sure he's the heir. 

You're certainly right about enforcement, etc. We don't know how vague the law is, but it seems to be based solely on precedents and traditions, rather than clearly established and unequivocal laws. 

[TMIFairy]

IMO "Should've taken the black is right". It depends.

I also don't believe Ramsay's example is that relevant.

1 - Ramsay versus Walda's child - they are both Roose's;

2 - Brandon's Jon versus Robb - they are cousins. As noted, the question "does a legitimised Bastard of an elder brother come before Trueborn children of younger brother?" is an issue to be decided by the court of Public Opinion, i.e. a juicy Civil War ...

OK - maybe Brandon was not into rape. As to why did Ned keep mum about Brandon being Jon's daddy? Just one of many unwise decisions ...

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

9 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

As to why did Ned keep mum about Brandon being Jon's daddy? Just one of many unwise decisions ...

Possibly, but there would have to be some reason. Taking one for the team and claiming a bastard as your own to keep the baby from being murdered is one thing, doing it just to transfer the "shame" from your dead brother to you seems a bit above and beyond the call of duty for a younger brother. 

[TMIFairy]

2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Possibly, but there would have to be some reason. Taking one for the team and claiming a bastard as your own to keep the baby from being murdered is one thing, doing it just to transfer the "shame" from your dead brother to you seems a bit above and beyond the call of duty for a younger brother. 

"It seemed a good idea at that time"

Maybe Ned thought that this way he was hurting Cate's feelings less?

Maybe there was some sort of unsavoury shady business tarnishing the Stark name which he wanted to keep under wraps - and claiming that Jon was his by an unnamed mother was the way to do it?

 

[Bernie Mac]

On 24/03/2018 at 3:14 PM, Angel Eyes said:

And what would Catelyn think of it? Both her husband and her betrothed siring bastards, would she refuse to take care of it? Treat it like she does Jon? 

Cat is under no obligation to treat random bastard children who may live in the same castle as she does. If Jory or Rodrik also had bastards do you think Cat would be obligated to care for them as well? 

[TMIFairy]

There is a canon example of a Flowers.

Although acknowledged (hence Flowers) she is a servant in her father's castle.

Then again we have the Twins crawling with Rivers' ... House Frey, voted "Most Bastard Friendly House" for 57 years in a row ...

[Light a wight tonight]

Ned would not bring one of Brandon's bastards to live at Winterfell. It's not customary and wouldn't be expected. The only reason Jon is there is (if you subscribe to R+L=J) to keep Jon's true parentage a secret and to protect him from Robert. If Jon were Ned's child he'd at best be fostered with some titled house or more likely his mother given a position with that house as a servant.

[Light a wight tonight]

On 3/25/2018 at 0:04 PM, TMIFairy said:

IMO Brandon had a bastard.

And that bastard's name is Jon Snow.

With his "wolf blood" on fire Brandon raped some noble girl - Ashara, most likely - while storming from Riverrun to Kings Landing.

To hide the shame and to make the Dayne's keep quiet Ned bribed them with Dawn. Why else not to take such a trophy home?

To hide the shame of "my bro and your betrothed was a rapist" from Cate he claimed Jon as his own.

I disagree with Rufus here - Brandon's bastard, if legitimised, would come BEFORE Ned's children.

 

If Brandon had raped Ashara Dayne he'd be in a world of hurt because Arthur Dayne, one of the baddest of badasses would have reduced him to primal cuts well before Aerys had him killed.

 

Beyond that, Brandon had no trouble finding willing lovers and has there has been no mention of violence against women on his part.

[TMIFairy]

30 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

If Brandon had raped Ashara Dayne he'd be in a world of hurt because Arthur Dayne, one of the baddest of badasses would have reduced him to primal cuts well before Aerys had him killed.

Notice the timing? At that time The Sword of the Morning was busy holding down Lyanna while Rheagar was raping "Visenya" into her ...

Knowing that Rheagar had kidnapped Lyanna with the assistance of Dayne (and Whent) could had made Brandom be nasty towards Ashara ...

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 3/24/2018 at 8:14 AM, Angel Eyes said:

This is an offshoot of the Brandon the Barren? thread. 

So I was wondering what would happen if Brandon Stark had a known bastard. Would Ned take the boy to be raised at Winterfell? Leave it with its mother? And what would Catelyn think of it? Both her husband and her betrothed siring bastards, would she refuse to take care of it? Treat it like she does Jon? 

It would def lead to lots moar forum posts about it, that's fer sure