And yet another Battlestar thread

[Wouter]

Continued from where we left off in the last thread;

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1672641' date='Feb 3 2009, 22.19']Okay, you're comparing how Tigh reacted after a few days of not having Adama around to how he reacted after a year of torture, violence, and fighting a guerrila war. In both cases he made similar decisions and reactions; one is just a bit more than the other. Tigh's instinct is to the nihilistic. It's one of the reasons that he has such a hard time with coming back to the fleet; he made the decisions that haunt him (they all haunt him) and Adama just doesn't seem to understand.[/quote]
Tigh used his own people as pieces of ammunition, mostly to kill other colonials - sometimes collaborators but not always, and in the end he wanted to randomly kill civilians by striking a market. And he still wasn't really hurting the cylons, who simply resurrected when necessary, and Cylons like Cavil got more and more say in their opinion that humans should be exterminated after all. That's terrible, far beyond the Tigh from the rest of the series. Tigh may be hard, but he has always been sensible, when it didn't come down to Ellen.

If all this was because Tigh was so broken, he still should have been broken afterwards, not regain his composure fairly rapidly. From S3.5 down, Tigh was pretty much back to being the old Tigh, reset button like.

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1672641' date='Feb 3 2009, 22.19']Wait - you think that a relationship with an abusive, haughty, beautiful woman is actually out of character for Saul Tigh? Seriously? His going to an unapproachable cylon to figure out how to deal with the realization that he has become literally something he hates makes little sense?[/quote]
Tigh made out with a [i]prisoner[/i], one of the Cylons who were responsible for all those terrible events on New Caprica that touched him so much, no less. And their relationship consists mostly of beating the crap out of each other (well, mostly out of him). It was a bit weird, to say the least.

Shryke;
[quote]Sometimes a character just doesn't have much to say or do. I mean, they've dropped Helo out of the spotlight too. And Baltar for awhile there. And others. Characters come and go from centre stage in the show all the time, except for Adama and Roslin really[/quote]
OK, but that Boomer didn't have much to say and do during New Caprica? What were her motivations, what did she do, did she even tell Gaeta, Baltar and co she was there? How did Tyrol and her react to each other? Why didn't she try to help the colonials with more than just feeble words?
And not much to say or do when the Cylon fleet attacks the colonial one she put together herself, to finish the job they started in the miniseries? She's just a complete non-factor? Not much to say or do during the cylon civil war, except being Cavil's "pet"? This is such a completely plot-driven character since S3 started, and that's a shame.
In the meantime, the writers did have plenty of time for the Starbuck-Anders-Lee-Dualla soap, though. And for Baltar's cult, or vague stories about serial-killing doctors.

[quote]As for Revelations, that was one of Tigh's BEST character moments. You just really don't understand the man at all. He reveals himself finally because, at that moment, WHO he is (Saul Tigh, the Fleet's second-in-command) and WHAT he is (a Cylon) finally match up perfectly. He's no longer divided. He walks into Adama's office and says "I'm a Cylon, USE ME AS A WEAPON AGAINST OUR ENEMIES!".[/quote]
That was a great moment for Tigh, offering himself to save so many others. Really great. And such a contrast to New Caprica, where he was sending others to do the dying for him, in order to get many more colonials killed and to annoy the cylons a bit. Like a sadistic coward. Bah. I like the pre- and post-New Caprica Tigh much better.

[quote]I mean, who gives a shit if Grace Park doesn't know her characters motivation. As long as it doesn't show up on screen, it's irrelevant.[/quote]
It does/will show up on the screen. If what she says is true, "The plan" will be yet another 180° for this character, it seems to me.

[Shryke]

[quote]So, Adama has all the angels and Gaeta has the scum? Aren't we being a bit too much black-and-white here?[/quote]

No, because that's the situation as it stands. I'm sorry it bugs you, but when your talking about mutiny (which involves KILLING THE PEOPLE YOU WORK WITH), your attracting the fringe elements first and foremost. It's like any revolution. That's the way it works.

[quote]Well done, keeping the cylons jumpy - partly by killing his own men and random civilians, including a planned suicide bombing of the market, of all places - resulting in the Cylons being alert and the Cylons being murderous, which in turn forced Adama to act earlier than he'd wanted. Why didn't he get a metal for this?[/quote]

He had no idea what Adama was doing, so he acted on his own, in what he thought was the best way.

[quote]Actually, the next time we see her after being murdered by Cally, she's slightly pissed at the Cylons (reasonable reaction, considering what the other Cylons did with her/made her do and what she experienced during the Cylon attack) and even still wearing a colonial uniform. How she goes from there to apparently supporting the occupation to siding with Cavil, even against her own model (as well as making dead threats to a little child), is totally unclear. At the same time, Athena goes from being pissed off and depressed by the "dead" of Hera, as well being unceremoniously thrown in jail for not betraying Cavil, to being a super-loyal, accepted colonial officer. All in the space of 2 episodes. It looks like Boomer is angry with the colonials instrad of Athena, and Athena is angry with the Cylons instead of Boomer, from the start of S3 on. Before that, they were both very different.[/quote]

Boomer, after Downloaded, bonds with Caprica-6 and together they steer the Cylons towards the New Caprica (let's all get along) phase of the Cylon "plan". At this point, we skip a good chunk of time, but we know the colonials have not forgiven the Cylons one bit, nor forgotten that Boomer was one of them. This essentially severs the last of her ties to the Colonials.

Why she joins up with Cavil? I'm guessing she doesn't feel a large amount of loyalty to her own unit or Cylons in general either. Maybe Cavil offered her something. We'll find out hopefully.

As for Athena, she goes from prisoner, to trusted prisoner and then there's a big gap, and then she's free. She convinced Adama she could be trusted apparently.

[Kalbear]

[quote]If all this was because Tigh was so broken, he still should have been broken afterwards, not regain his composure fairly rapidly. From S3.5 down, Tigh was pretty much back to being the old Tigh, reset button like.[/quote]Eh, kinda. We spent a good couple of months on ship dealing with his crap. Tigh on NC was a damn hard man - and he was right, too. It [i]was[/i] working on the cylons. They were disrupted, they were upset. He was getting civilian support. He was getting weapons to use. Tigh without Adama and without a balancing influence became, well, super-Tigh. Horrible in all the ways he is. Again, I don't see this as out of character; I see this as Tigh magnified.

Then he gets back, goes through a couple months of crap, and starts doing his job. Not seeing where the problem was. He was seriously disruptive for a while.

[quote]Tigh made out with a prisoner, one of the Cylons who were responsible for all those terrible events on New Caprica that touched him so much, no less. And their relationship consists mostly of beating the crap out of each other (well, mostly out of him). It was a bit weird, to say the least.[/quote]Tigh's self hatred caused him to go debase himself in front of a representation of what he hates most. This is, again, pure Saul Tigh. He hates himself for being a cylon and doesn't know how to deal with it, so he basically abuses himself the only way he knows how. This is Saul and Ellen's relationship, magnified. He's both trying to discover who he really is and dealing with the pain the only way he knows how.

Again, I don't see where the disconnect is. I understand less of what Six's motivations are there, but Saul's motivations are crystal clear.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1672741' date='Feb 3 2009, 17.33']Eh, kinda. We spent a good couple of months on ship dealing with his crap. Tigh on NC was a damn hard man - and he was right, too. It [i]was[/i] working on the cylons. They were disrupted, they were upset. He was getting civilian support. He was getting weapons to use.[/quote]

I agree with this. One of the neat things about the New Caprica story arc was that, in my view, it messed with your ideas of right and wrong. Terrorism is wrong, but do things change when the Cylons are the enemy?

[Wouter]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1672737' date='Feb 3 2009, 23.31']Boomer, after Downloaded, bonds with Caprica-6 and together they steer the Cylons towards the New Caprica (let's all get along) phase of the Cylon "plan". At this point, we skip a good chunk of time, but we know the colonials have not forgiven the Cylons one bit, nor forgotten that Boomer was one of them. This essentially severs the last of her ties to the Colonials.[/quote]
They could have at least [i]shown[/i] something of that. They pointedly did not show Boomer being rejected by the colonials on New Caprica, unless you count the weird attempt to talk with a scared and freaked out Cally in jail (too little and too late - what about helping her to escape, if she isn't angry with Cally anyway). They did not even show Boomer attempting to talk with anyone, to plead her innocence with the colonials. Did she or didn't she? We don't know.

They also never showed Boomer learning about things like her picture being on the shooting range, or her being booed in the crowd on New Caprica (they did this for Athena though, strangely enough), being given the cold shoulder or worse by any old comrade she tried to approach. They never showed an attempt on her life. Any of this could have been a big help in making her turn from pro-human to pro-Cylon believable and expected - she's tired of all the rejecting, lashing out etc. Fine. But they didn't, and instead they only show her being lethargic in the Cylon ruling council. Apparently she has some kind of function on New Caprica but I couldn't tell what it was. She didn't do anything to help Starbuck, for example (did she even know?). As far as we know, she didn't help the humans with making their living conditions better. Nothing of substance to stop the executions, either. Only some feeble protests.

Now, if they had shown her working hard to help the humans and getting nothing but abuse in return, I would have bought her siding with even the most anti-human faction within the cylons. As it is, the character was half-dropped and only used to shock the audience from time to time, or as plot device. Writers built up a dramatic arc for this character over the first 2 seasons and then pretty much just dropped it.

[quote name='Shryke' post='1672737' date='Feb 3 2009, 23.31']As for Athena, she goes from prisoner, to trusted prisoner and then there's a big gap, and then she's free. She convinced Adama she could be trusted apparently.[/quote]
If only it would have gone that way. She actually goes from defector, to prisoner, to trusted prisoner and then back to untrusted and rather uncooperative and pissed off prisoner at the end of S2 - only to turn it around completely and abruptly in S3. It's a flipflop, like Gul Dukat. But I could at least follow Dukat's opportunistic moves, I have a lot of trouble with following Athena's and Boomer's moves.

[Shryke]

I'll have to rewatch S2 again. What makes Athena become untrustworthy again?

I'd agree they needed to show more or Boomer's transition, but it at least plays as believable imo. Maybe a scene was cut or something, I don't know.

The other thing I can think is they did skip over the majority of the occupation. While it seemed like an odd move to me at first when S3 premiered, I've come to understand why they did it. They skipped the slow buildup and went straight to the maximum tension at the end, so as to keep the whole thing REALLY tense. Boomer's character development may have been side-lined by this.

[Kalbear]

Nothing makes Athena untrustworthy, afaik. The last part before we get the leap forward was her being used as a nav computer to jump back to Caprica to rescue the resistance force there. Which she does; the only thing I can think is that Racetrack's bad jump might've caused some tension.

To me, that was the obvious start of her becoming welcome in the fleet. She shows that she's willing to cooperate, does so, things rock. Keep doing more things like that after a year? Yeah, she's probably going to be exonerated.

[Wouter]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1672741' date='Feb 3 2009, 23.33']Eh, kinda. We spent a good couple of months on ship dealing with his crap. Tigh on NC was a damn hard man - and he was right, too. It [i]was[/i] working on the cylons. They were disrupted, they were upset. He was getting civilian support. He was getting weapons to use.[/quote]
The cylons were disrupted, and upset, and falling back to their old habit of exterminating the humans. If that was the goal, they should just not have surrendered and started throwing stones at the Centurions and Raiders. If they did want to live, better surrender and try to not upset the Cylons, especially when the Cylons aren't being overly disruptive to your own life.
In the meantime, bide your time and collect weapons for when they are useful - like when surprising them with a well thought-out evacuation plan with an armed resistance springing up out of nowhere. And of course this move would have had civilian support.

And if it all comes down in peace/alliance with the Cylons in the end anyway, they just as well could have tried to talk with the Cylons on New Caprica and genuinely improve relations and end the occupation that way. With part of the Cylons actually honestly ready to accept humans, and with Caprica-6/Boomer/Baltar/Athena/Helo as mediators, there was a chance of doing this. With Galactica and Pegasus still at large, the colonials even still had bargaining chips to use if needed.

[quote]I agree with this. One of the neat things about the New Caprica story arc was that, in my view, it messed with your ideas of right and wrong. Terrorism is wrong, but do things change when the Cylons are the enemy?[/quote]
Did it? What Tigh and Anders were doing was still just wrong. The Cylons may be the enemy, the humans were doing all the dying. All so the Cylons would be "upset" and people would support the resistance even more (as if this was needed). It only made Tigh and co look stupid and cruel, while the Cylons remained almost as bad as they were.

[Wouter]

Athena became instantly untrustworthy again when she allowed Cavil to board Galactica without saying anything - Adama was very angry with her (allthough he previously had said he wouldn't expect her to actually betray other models) and ordered "the thing" to the brig. Besides this, Athena was barely saying anything at all to the colonials after she lost Hera. One episode later (OK, I know it was a year - but I prefer show, not tell) she is being sworn as an extremely loyal colonial officer - and instantly given Boomer's rank and position, as well.


[quote name='Shryke' post='1672765' date='Feb 3 2009, 23.55']I'd agree they needed to show more or Boomer's transition, but it at least plays as believable imo. Maybe a scene was cut or something, I don't know.

The other thing I can think is they did skip over the majority of the occupation. While it seemed like an odd move to me at first when S3 premiered, I've come to understand why they did it. They skipped the slow buildup and went straight to the maximum tension at the end, so as to keep the whole thing REALLY tense. Boomer's character development may have been side-lined by this.[/quote]
I think so; the New Caprica part was extremely rushed. 4 episodes, 2 of which deal with the climax and escape, is way too little to give a balanced and fairly complete take on the subject of an occupation. It was a simplified, straight-to-the-action plot, in which a number of corners had to be cut. We weren't shown if the Cylons were really trying to help the colonials in some ways (food, power, medicines), there were hardly any factions shown between total collaboration and total resistance,...
You can't be very subtle in so little time, and yeah, I suspect Boomer's development was one of the things that had to be scrapped to make way for the quick resolution. RDM apparently took a big risk in totally re-tooling the show, but it was sorta fake as they were all back in space in under 5 episodes.

[Shryke]

You REALLY expected the colonials to just roll over and trust the Cylons on New Caprica? REALLY?

[Wouter]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1672793' date='Feb 4 2009, 00.13']You REALLY expected the colonials to just roll over and trust the Cylons on New Caprica? REALLY?[/quote]
No, but then they are being asked to do so now, after the latest series of Cylon attempts to kill them, so if it will come down to this in the end, might as well have taken the chance to do it on New Caprica. Would have saved a lot of lives. If they didn't accept the cylons then, they shouldn't accept them now either. Gaeta and Zarek are consistent.

Now I know they very probably will find their "promised land" in the end, but the characters don't know that.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote]No, but then they are being asked to do so now, after the latest series of Cylon attempts to kill them, so if it will come down to this in the end, might as well have taken the chance to do it on New Caprica. Would have saved a lot of lives. If they didn't accept the cylons then, they shouldn't accept them now either. Gaeta and Zarek are consistent.[/quote]

There is a big difference between the present and the events on New Caprica. On New Caprica, humanity was being governed and oppressed by the Cylons. In the present, humans and Cylons have the opportunity to come together as equals. I don't see them as equatable or consistent situations, at all. It is interesting that you mention the 'latest series of Cylon attempts to kill them'. How many have there been? Are they being committed by more then one model? Is there a Cylon Conspiracy to infiltrate the Fleet and exterminate humanity? Are there more Cylon-on-Human murders then Human-on-Human murders? I remember there being quite a few Cylon attempts to kill them on New Caprica, and a certain level of planning that went into those atrocities, as well.

You are looking at this with the benefit of hindsight. They might as well have taken the chance to do it on New Caprica? The Colonials obviously didn't know what would happen after New Caprica. All they knew was that the Cylons were in charge, people were disappearing, and not much else. Would collaborating with them lead to their extinction? Would Adama's plan to rescue them actually work? None of them knew for certain. But it worked, they got off that rock and now they are back in space with the Cylons. Who, by the way, seem to have largely given up killing humans. It is strange that you support a resistance [i]now[/i] but not [i]then[/i]. Seems like it should be the other way around, to me.

[Wouter]

[quote name='Lord of Oop North' post='1672819' date='Feb 4 2009, 00.30']There is a big difference between the present and the events on New Caprica. On New Caprica, humanity was being governed and oppressed by the Cylons. In the present, humans and Cylons have the opportunity to come together as equals. I don't see them as equatable or consistent situations, at all. It is interesting that you mention the 'latest series of Cylon attempts to kill them'. How many have there been? Are they being committed by more then one model? Is there a Cylon Conspiracy to infiltrate the Fleet and exterminate humanity? Are there more Cylon-on-Human murders then Human-on-Human murders? I remember there being quite a few Cylon attempts to kill them on New Caprica, and a certain level of planning that went into those atrocities, as well.[/quote]
There was initially no killing by cylons going on at New Caprica - that was the whole idea. The more practical colonials could also have identified and sought out the more "dovish" Cylons, who we know really existed at the time, and pleaded/negotiated with them to have the Cylons withdraw their occupation forces in return for a peace treaty and an accepted Cylon presence, not directly in control of the humans. They could do this using the still powerful battlestars as bargaining ships; their surrender would be a great prize to the Cylons, their attacks potentially very troubling (the Cylons being afraid of human revenge).

Regarding the latest series of Cylon killings: to start with, the mass executions on New Caprica that started after the resistance made them "upset". Followed with the fight to escape New Caprica, which made a few 1000s of victims IIRC. Remember, both of those come after a possible half-negotiated agreement on New Caprica. Followed by a Mexican stand-off at the Algae planet, where Cavil is looking at ways to get the humans killed, and D'anna orders an attack on the colonists on the planet, killing quite a few. Then the Cylons continue their relentless pursuit, almost taking out Racetrack's Raptor in the process, and finally catch up in the Ionean nebula, where they - all the models together - make a determined and effective attack to end the colonial problem once and for all (resulting in a lots of dead), but the colonials are saved by the bell (by Anders meeting the raider). A certain level of planning probably went into all of this.

After that, the rebel Cylon models still take 100s of hostages, actually airlock one of them and are meanwhile threatening both their other hostages and the entire fleet (with nukes). Only a few days before they "ask Galactica for protection", and to become citizens. They don't even say sorry nor admit being in the wrong, and they don't freely offer help: they bargain.

[Shryke]

Yeah, your assuming the Colonials are WAY more forgiving then they actually are.
Resistance to the Cylons would have started immediately. And the backlash frmo the Cylons over that would have destroyed any chance of peace.

[Wouter]

In New Caprica as it was broadcasted, IIRC it took quite a while before the resistance actually got violent enough to really unnerve the Cylons, especially if you look at the webisodes (which give a bit more feeling of time going by).

And regarding forgiveness, they are being asked to forgive even more now than they had to forgive at New Caprica. Either way, the attack on the colonies won't be undone.

[Shryke]

The Cylons take over and next thing we see, it's a ways later and Tigh is in prison and down 1 eye. And the fact that they've built a prison already, with few other permanent structures, says alot.

The thing this time is that the Cylons and Humans are coming together as EQUALS, which most certainly was not happening on New Caprica.

[Bronn Stone]

It may be just as simple as this. The cycle will repeat itself forever until the Humans learn to do the one thing they couldn't do on the Colonies, nor could they do it on Kobol - actually consider the Cylons "people". Just as every Human is not guilty of every crime committed by every other Human, collective guilt cannot be assigned to the Cylons either. They have the rights of person (including the right to not be beaten or raped as captives).

Adama is on the way. Some others, not so much.

[Myrddin]

I still haven't seen the last episode, but did we really go through 400 posts in the last thread already? Wow.

/skips out before reading something I don't want to yet.

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Myrddin' post='1672988' date='Feb 3 2009, 18.27']I still haven't seen the last episode, but did we really go through 400 posts in the last thread already? Wow.

/skips out before reading something I don't want to yet.[/quote]
You might want to wait until Friday afternoon to watch it. It's a pretty good "frak you, audience!" of a cliffhanger.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1672892' date='Feb 3 2009, 19.26']It may be just as simple as this. The cycle will repeat itself forever until the Humans learn to do the one thing they couldn't do on the Colonies, nor could they do it on Kobol - actually consider the Cylons "people". Just as every Human is not guilty of every crime committed by every other Human, collective guilt cannot be assigned to the Cylons either. They have the rights of person (including the right to not be beaten or raped as captives).

Adama is on the way. Some others, not so much.[/quote]

I'd argue that the Cylons need to come to terms with their own crimes; those being, of course, the genocide they wrought on the Colonies and the tyranny they brought to New Caprica. Amazingly, after those incidents they still consider themselves morally superior to humanity. ::shakes head::