NFL Thread II: Now bringing you more JaMarcus Russell!

[Young Wolf]

Continuing on with the NFL discussion:

Good news for Pats fans. Mayo wont be out for the season according to Belichick.

[DanteGabriel]

Continuing on with the NFL discussion:

Good news for Pats fans. Mayo wont be out for the season according to Belichick.

He's played coy with injury news before. I'll believe when I see Mayo on the field.

[DanteGabriel]

Interesting article on the contract that Andre Smith signed after holding out on the Bengals for almost the entire preseason, comparing it to that ridiculous contract that Ricky Williams signed in 1999 when he let one of Masta P's flunkies represent him:

The memory of the Williams deal was revived by Cincinnati Bengals offensive tackle Andre Smith. Smith's odyssey to being the No. 6 overall pick is a misadventure by itself (some projected him to go as high as No. 2 before a series of goofs, such as leaving the NFL scouting combine early). However, his contract may rank right there with Williams as a show-stopper. Or in the case of agent Alvin Keels, a career stopper. Throw in the fact that Smith missed most of training camp while holding out and you have a deal that defies logic.

Smith essentially signed what is really a six-year contract (don't believe the four-year claim, the team can easily buy the last two years) worth an expected value of $42 million, assuming he hits all the normal thresholds. If Smith hits all the "Superman" clauses in the contract (he basically has to go to the Pro Bowl and Cincinnati has to get to the playoffs every year), he can make a maximum of $50 million.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=ArGj...o&type=lgns

Basically reinforces the impression I got from Hard Knocks, that Smith's agent is a simpering moron.

[Mexal]

Interesting article on the contract that Andre Smith signed after holding out on the Bengals for almost the entire preseason, comparing it to that ridiculous contract that Ricky Williams signed in 1999 when he let one of Masta P's flunkies represent him:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=ArGj...o&type=lgns

Basically reinforces the impression I got from Hard Knocks, that Smith's agent is a simpering moron.

They're both morons. Smith for holding out and listening to Keels and Keels for coming up with one of the worst contracts for a top 10 player.

On a separate note, Crabtree is an even bigger idiot.

[Rhom]

An in further news in Buffalo:

McKelvin's Front Lawn Vandalized

Just wrong.

Saw that on the news this morning while I was getting ready. Immediately made me think "You stay classy Buffalo." Those are some frustrated fans.

On a separate note, Crabtree is an even bigger idiot.

So very, very true. If San Fran can win their next couple of games, their bargaining power goes through the roof in this.

[Mexal]

So very, very true. If San Fran can win their next couple of games, their bargaining power goes through the roof in this.

At this stage, I just cannot fathom what is going through Crabtree's head. What is it that he expects to gain from this? Right now, he's pretty much decided that he won't play football in 2009 which means he doesn't give a shit about football but only the money. And who the hell wants someone like that on their team?

At least with Smith's holdout, it was because the Bengals decided they didn't want to abide by the slotting system and was trying to pay him less than the person behind him got. I can understand that hold out even though I can't understand his signing. But then again, he wanted to play which is something that can't be said for Crabtree.

[Gold Storm]

They're both morons. Smith for holding out and listening to Keels and Keels for coming up with one of the worst contracts for a top 10 player.

On a separate note, Crabtree is an even bigger idiot.

So very, very true. If San Fran can win their next couple of games, their bargaining power goes through the roof in this.

On that note, the 49ers have reportedly reduced their off to Crabtree and will continue to do so as long as he holds out.

The San Francisco 49ers have apparently reduced their offer to Crabtree, according to Yahoo! Sports' Michael Silver, and the team may keep reducing it each week that he doesn't play. The initial reduction is reportedly for $200,000.

What a dumbass, if he stays out till next year, there is noway in hell any team will take him in the top ten, they will draft him late first or more likely second or latter. Look at what happened to Mike Williams he spent a year out of football and it ruined him.

[Rockroi]

At this stage, I just cannot fathom what is going through Crabtree's head. What is it that he expects to gain from this? Right now, he's pretty much decided that he won't play football in 2009 which means he doesn't give a shit about football but only the money. And who the hell wants someone like that on their team?

If I were a 49'ers exec, I would be baffled because from their point of view, Crabtree's "nuclear" option is to sit out all of 2009 and go back into the draft in 2010. If he did that, Crabtree would be saddled with the identity of a hold-out who is has submarined his entire rookie season. This begs the question (and this is key) what team would draft him at a slot BETTER than he enjoyed in the 2009 draft? In other words, his NEXT contract could be worth LESS than what he was offered in 2009!

And in that area, to me, it appears as if Crabtree is negotiating AGAINST his best interests. How can this be a rational move? How do you battle against it?

And his premise is completely absurd! The Raiders take another WR and overpay him; Crabtree's argument is that he SHOULD have been taken first and as such, he should get a better deal because he should bot be punished because the Raiders are idiots. Well, that argument cuts both ways; the 49'ers should not be punished because the Raiders are idiots either.

[Mexal]

This begs the question (and this is key) what team would draft him at a slot BETTER than he enjoyed in the 2009 draft? In other words, his NEXT contract could be worth LESS than what he was offered in 2009!

That's my point as well. He'll most likely make less next year, especially after teams saw how Mike Williams ended up. On top of that, people will realize he's an idiot and fucked himself therefore calling into question his intelligence. I wish he wouldn't get drafted until round 7 but knowing teams, it's hard not to take a chance on talent like that. Though to be fair, there is some fantastic WR talent coming out of college this year.

[Rhom]

In a lot of ways, the Crabtree discussion reminds me of the argument in the previous thread about the value of Tom Brady as a draft choice in retrospect. I'm sure Crabtree would love to be able to make the argument that he should get paid where he thought we was going to be drafted. As others have said though, that's not how it works and its shooting himself in the foot. Right now, his best move would be to sign the deal in front of him today and then bust his ass to show what he's worth in the next three years and get his money in his second contract.

I just hope the league gets a rookie pay scale based on draft position and playing position implemented with the next CBA.

As to the uncapped year coming up... it makes me nervous. The 49ers are still trying to recover from the NFL transition to the salary cap. They hurt themselves so badly early in free agency that they are still trying to get things straightened out 10 years later. :tantrum: I'm afraid other teams will blow their load on the one season, and set themselves up for a decade of mediocrity or worse. The Redskins are a prime candidate for this kind of foolishness in my book.

[Mexal]

As to the uncapped year coming up... it makes me nervous. The 49ers are still trying to recover from the NFL transition to the salary cap. They hurt themselves so badly early in free agency that they are still trying to get things straightened out 10 years later. :tantrum: I'm afraid other teams will blow their load on the one season, and set themselves up for a decade of mediocrity or worse. The Redskins are a prime candidate for this kind of foolishness in my book.

As a Bengals fan, an uncapped year scares the living shit out of me. We're already cheap. To play in a league where the teams with the most money dominate will just basically render us useless. Our team will end up similar to the Marlins but without the ability to compete every 5 years.

[DanteGabriel]

As to the uncapped year coming up... it makes me nervous. The 49ers are still trying to recover from the NFL transition to the salary cap. They hurt themselves so badly early in free agency that they are still trying to get things straightened out 10 years later. :tantrum: I'm afraid other teams will blow their load on the one season, and set themselves up for a decade of mediocrity or worse. The Redskins are a prime candidate for this kind of foolishness in my book.

Nah, it's not the salary cap any more. It's the years of shitty drafts and shitty personnel moves under Terry Donahue and other stalwarts of the York regime.

The salary cap was introduced in 1994. It's a little late to keep blaming that for the 49ers' misfortunes.

[TheBigTEA]

You really have to wonder what intelligence level Crabtree has. I am sure people have sat him down and told him EXACTLY what we are discussing here. How arrogant or stupid do you have to be to completely dismiss all the evidence and opinions of the people that have been there, done that?

I certainly hope if he re-enters the draft he goes undrafted. It will never happen but it is what this guy deserves.

[Waldo Frey]

For the holdout, there are several examples in the past:

1. Bo Jackson - he went to play of MLB. Bo knows baseball, but I don't think Crabtree does.

2. Bryant McKennie - all the way into week #8 before he signed with the Vikings. But I think his position skill set is different from Crabtree's. Bryant is doing well. Maybe Crabtree takes that as an example.

3. Mike Williams - he returned to school and got drafted the second year around. We all know what happened to him.

4. Matt Harrington - from the Wikipedia:

* 2000 Major League Baseball Draft, first round with the 7th overall pick by the Rockies

A right-hander with a 95+ mph fastball, Harrington was considered one of the top pitching prospects in the 2000 Major League Baseball Draft. He was selected by the Colorado Rockies with the 7th overall pick. However, Harrington and his agent Tommy Tanzer were never able to come to terms on a contract. Tanzer asked for a $4.95 million signing bonus, which was 25 percent more than what the previous year's No. 1 pick Josh Hamilton had received. The negotiations proved acrimonious, with Tanzer accusing the Rockies of backing out of an alleged pre-draft agreement to sign for his stated asking price, and the Rockies denying that such an agreement ever took place.

The Rockies' final offer was $4 million and a guaranteed major league callup by the end of 2002. Harrington turned down the deal, sat out the season and re-entered the draft in 2001. While Harrington and his parents publicly supported their agent at the time, they ultimately fired Tanzer and filed a multi-million dollar lawsuit against him for giving bad advice. Tanzer was replaced with super-agent Scott Boras, who also proved unsuccessful getting Harrington signed.

* 2001 Major League Baseball Draft, second round with the 58th overall pick by the Padres.

In the 2001 Draft, Harrington slipped into the second round, being drafted by the San Diego Padres with the 58th overall pick. The Padres offered him a $1.2 million signing bonus. Boras, who wanted twice that amount, rejected the offer and Harrington again declined to sign. He played in the independent leagues during the following season, putting up unimpressive numbers for St. Paul of the Northern League and Long Beach of the now-defunct Western Baseball League, going a combined 2-6 with a 6.75 ERA. He was released by Long Beach's manager Steve Yeager. Although the Padres were still free to make additional contract offers until the day of the 2002 draft, they chose not to after scouting Harrington in independent ball that May. They felt Harrington's skills had diminished, and notified him that they were not interested in signing him to a contract, and would not be drafting him again.

* 2002 Major League Baseball Draft, 13th round with the 374th overall pick by the Devil Rays.

Despite his struggles in the independent leagues, Harrington was drafted again in 2002. This time, he was taken by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays in the 13th round. Again, he failed to agree to a contract. Tampa Bay's offers ranged in the $5,000-$20,000 range, standard 13th round money.

* 2003 Major League Baseball Draft, 24th round with the 711th overall pick by the Reds.

In 2003, he fell to the 24th round of the draft (711th overall), before he was selected by the Cincinnati Reds, who were just offering little more than a chance to play.

* 2004 Major League Baseball Draft, 36th round with the 1,089th overall pick by the Yankees.

In 2004, he would be drafted by the New York Yankees in the 36th Round (1,089 overall), who did not offer him a contract.

[edit] Professional career

For the past four years, Harrington has pitched for the Fort Worth Cats of the independent American Association. He has pitched well with the Cats, mostly as a middle reliever. He posted a 5-0 record during the 2005 season, and followed that up with a 6-1 mark and a 2.90 ERA in 2006. During the latter season, he increased his strikeout rate dramatically, and allowed just 6.7 hits per nine innings pitched. The improvement was credited to Harrington being in better shape and regaining considerable velocity on his fastball.

Because none of the 30 major league teams selected him after 50 rounds in the 2005 Major League Baseball Draft, Harrington became a free agent. This allowed him to sign a professional contract with any club in organized baseball, on whatever terms he can obtain. Harrington's improvement caused some major league clubs to again have interest in signing him. On October 10, 2006, he signed a minor league contract with the Chicago Cubs. He received no signing bonus, but attended the Cubs' 2007 spring training camp with the hope of landing a position on a Cubs minor league team; however, the Cubs released him on March 27, 2007.[1] After his release from the Cubs, he re-signed with the St. Paul Saints, his original minor league independent team. He is now retired.

In a recent ESPN the magazine article[2] it was reported that Harrington is currently working for the local Costco store, in the tire department, making $11.50 per hour.

Personally, I hope Crabtree and his agent end up in the example #4.

[Rhom]

Wow... kinda wishing he'd taken the $4 million signing bonus, huh?

In baseball, that sort of stuff happens all the time. It really sucks for the 49ers because there is no recourse for them if he fails to sign this year.

[Mack Kilimaro]

The Matt Harrington story really stands out because the guy wrecked his big chance at money over $950,000. $4 million bucks and a guarantee to be in the bigs within two years is more than all but the tip-top prospects get even now, and 9 years ago I'm sure that was more pronounced. It's crazy. I don't know how analogous it is to football because the expectation is that a high first-round draft pick will be helping you from day one on the team. Sure, it's the same in that they haven't proven themselves at the pro level, but they don't have minor leagues to wind their way through either. Even a first round pick may never play a major league game.

Don't really know what to make of the Crabtree situation. The idea of, you make more than the guy drafted behind you but less than the guy drafted in front of you seems to be much more strictly followed in football. There is no, "I'm worth X dollars regardless of what pick I'm taken with" - but then, the dynamics are different. Guys who declare for the NFL draft are pretty much done. There is no going back to school. So, more leverage for the teams. But I guess it's pretty embarrassing for the 49ers not to sign their top pick, either.

If a guy feels that strongly about what he's worth, or he feels so slighted by the way the process has played out that he'd rather waste a year than play football for the 49ers, well, lacking fly-on-the-wall insight I can't really pass judgment there. Can really only say good luck to the guy and that you kind of hope he's getting advice from his agent and others that's the best for his career potential and not what's best for lining someone's pockets. I do have a hard time believing that a higher pick will be used on the same player in next year's draft. So on its face it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Maithanet]

Wow... kinda wishing he'd taken the $4 million signing bonus, huh?

In baseball, that sort of stuff happens all the time. It really sucks for the 49ers because there is no recourse for them if he fails to sign this year.

I agree that the 49ers got the short end of the stick here. But I think some other teams may have seen this disaster coming and avoided it by picking a more stable personality. The 49ers took a chance (all draft picks have differing levels of risk), and at the moment, it looks like they missed their flush.

It happens that guys draft status falls because teams think they are character issues. Rumor is it happened to Crabtree not because of personal conduct issues, but just that he's the quintessential me-first receiver, with a vastly inflated idea of his own importance.

[DanteGabriel]

But I guess it's pretty embarrassing for the 49ers not to sign their top pick, either.

I think it'd be more embarassing for them to cave to Crabtree's childish demands and silly holdout. Everyone thought they got a steal when they drafted him. The 49ers will not be dinged for their judgment in the court of public opinion if they just kick this kid to the curb and move on without him after offering him a fair market deal and his head started spinning around like the Exorcist.

Didn't the 49ers get some media attention for sending a psychologist to interview Matt Stafford and having the psychologist ask him about his parents' divorce? Maybe they should have had the psychologist do more grilling on Crabtree.

[Swordfish]

The Matt Harrington story really stands out because the guy wrecked his big chance at money over $950,000. $4 million bucks and a guarantee to be in the bigs within two years is more than all but the tip-top prospects get even now, and 9 years ago I'm sure that was more pronounced. It's crazy. I don't know how analogous it is to football because the expectation is that a high first-round draft pick will be helping you from day one on the team. Sure, it's the same in that they haven't proven themselves at the pro level, but they don't have minor leagues to wind their way through either. Even a first round pick may never play a major league game.

Don't really know what to make of the Crabtree situation. The idea of, you make more than the guy drafted behind you but less than the guy drafted in front of you seems to be much more strictly followed in football. There is no, "I'm worth X dollars regardless of what pick I'm taken with" - but then, the dynamics are different. Guys who declare for the NFL draft are pretty much done. There is no going back to school. So, more leverage for the teams. But I guess it's pretty embarrassing for the 49ers not to sign their top pick, either.

If a guy feels that strongly about what he's worth, or he feels so slighted by the way the process has played out that he'd rather waste a year than play football for the 49ers, well, lacking fly-on-the-wall insight I can't really pass judgment there. Can really only say good luck to the guy and that you kind of hope he's getting advice from his agent and others that's the best for his career potential and not what's best for lining someone's pockets. I do have a hard time believing that a higher pick will be used on the same player in next year's draft. So on its face it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Particularly when you add in the fact that he's losing out on an entire years salary.

it is incomprehensible that he somehow still believes this makes sense.

F him. I love the idea that they are now lowering their offer incrementally. Good for them for not giving in to his idiocy.

[Kalbear]

It's funny; his stock slipped precisely because people were worried about character issues he exhibited in college.

Yikes.

At this point it's clear he's not backing down because he's trying to make a point and trying to 'win', whatever that means. And in 2010, he might - might - be able to get a ton of money if there's no cap. But chances are that he'd have to accept a contract that basically had almost no up-front money and tons of riders and backloaded up the wazoo, and that's if he's lucky.

Most clubs simply won't take any chance on him. Those that do are probably going to be cheap about it.

He cost himself probably in the order of $10 million for this year at least, and maybe $20mil overall - and that assumes he's actually productive, and not like Clarett or Williams.

What a dumbass.