Can I be a feminist and 'one of the guys'?

[Mo Sneachd]

Gender is no excuse for being a moron with the intellectual capacities of a banana. I'd say you are doing man-kind a favour for snapping, too, since there are sensible men out there, believe it or not.

But then I suppose I am somewhat of a hopelessly romantic idealist who tends to ignore that the real world is actually a rather rude, fucked-up place.

I'll join the 'depends on which guys' group and raise a 'and you might want to know whether you want to be one of THOSE guys'.

[Ocean of Notions]

I'll join the 'depends on which guys' group and raise a 'and you might want to know whether you want to be one of THOSE guys'.

:agree: Just like with any group of people. Half the time, I'm pretty distant with people I work with. I'm there to do the job, not to be friends. That's not to say I haven't made friends at a job.

[TerraPrime]

You have more patience than I would have, datepalm.

I think the outburst was not an appropriate way to handle it, but it's certainly understandable.

I'm sorry that you had to deal with that.

[Errant Bard]

It helps not one bit if it's a male that *complains either.

* Unless the complaining is served on fists.

Aye, depends on the way you complain. Making an idiot out of the guy and ridiculing him each time he starts being offensive is a much more efficient approach than even fists, I've found. Getting pissed only encourages them, but touch their ego and boy does it shut them up. There's just that middle point between being serious and joking to find, to just carry across that you're not joking with him but against him while still leaving him a chance to laugh it off (forced or not) instead of having to resort to the default angry reaction of the wounded machoman.

[Mo Sneachd]

Aye, depends on the way you complain. Making an idiot out of the guy and ridiculing him each time he starts being offensive is a much more efficient approach than even fists, I've found. Getting pissed only encourages them, but touch their ego and boy does it shut them up. There's just that middle point between being serious and joking to find, to just carry across that you're not joking with him but against him while still leaving him a chance to laugh it off (forced or not) instead of having to resort to the default angry reaction of the wounded machoman.

I believe Noon's comment goes more along the lines of 'a manly man is not supposed to behave in any way which is civil towards women' ideology; so if you complain about men being rude towards women, you're either a sissy or a poof. Which is something I have no personal experience of but appears to sadly be in existence.

[Errant Bard]

I believe Noon's comment goes more along the lines of 'a manly man is not supposed to behave in any way which is civil towards women' ideology; so if you complain about men being rude towards women, you're either a sissy or a poof. Which is something I have no personal experience of but appears to sadly be in existence.

:stunned: Ah, right, I've certainly never encountered this behaviour. It is indeed the norm to be way more rude towards women (or at least, more vulgar) when there are only men around, but that's merely posing, and I've never seen it translated into being truly rude to a woman.

Would this be typical of specific country or cultures, or is it just the luck of the draw?

[BLU-RAY]

:lol:

Who says shit like that? Fuck, most people I know weren't even at that level of puerility in middle school. I fucking loathe unfunny people who think they're Richard goddamn Pryor.

I agree that the best way of combatting it is maybe not to snap, but it's understandable. And really, fuck that dude. And if your colleagues weren't sick of listening to him, fuck them too.

[Guest Raidne]

Yeah, my two cents is that it helps not all to talk about being "offended," etc., and that the appropriate action is repeatedly just tell him to STFU. If necessary, repeat, no, I'm serious, STFU. Honestly, I really doubt any explanation is necessary. If asked for one, just stare down as necessary.

Having said the "offended" word, yeah, you might have some of the problems that you're worried about. Or you might not, because everyone else was probably sick of listening to the guy too, you know?

Mostly, I've found that men, like most other kinds of people, just want the awkwardness to blow over quickly, so if you go back to acting normal, they'll let things be like they were.

Having said all that, you had every, every right to be offended, and were living under conditions that constitute one of the worst cases of hostile environment sexual harassment I've ever heard of.

[MinDonner]

Fuck's sake, no-one should have to put up with endless jokes at their expense, simply for the sake of fitting in; it's just basically bullying, and the other guys are almost as much to blame for letting it continue. I'm no fan at all of the "it was just a joke!" defence (especially accompanied with "where's your sense of humour?"), like that gives people free rein to make whatever unpleasant comments they feel like; I'm not surprised at all that you flipped out.

Given that I'm already well-established as a humourless feminist, I have no qualms about quoting Joanna Russ here: "The boys throw stones at the frogs in jest, but the frogs die in earnest". The temptation is really strong to just keep your head down and laugh along with the hostile jokes, but it's always great when someone actually stands up and says something. Fuck 'em if they think you're PMSing, and next time hand some shit out to the enablers, too.

*applauds*

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I know many people like this. It doesn't really bother me, my usual reaction to immature humor is to give back immature humor. If it genuinely offends you (nothing wrong with that) then you have to say something straight away. Don't ignore it and hope they stop, because they almost certainly won't. You have to make your feelings very clear around those kinds of people.

Girls can easily be 'one of the guys.' So can feminists. Me and some of my friends refer to each other with insults rather than names. Its more habit than anything, we have unsaid rules about what you do or don't say, etc, to us certain words simply arent offensive, something a newcomer to the group wouldn't realise. You must realise that words are only words. If its genuinely unfunny and boring to listen to, then you tell them to STFU.

[Mo Sneachd]

:stunned: Ah, right, I've certainly never encountered this behaviour. It is indeed the norm to be way more rude towards women (or at least, more vulgar) when there are only men around, but that's merely posing, and I've never seen it translated into being truly rude to a woman.

Would this be typical of specific country or cultures, or is it just the luck of the draw?

I haven't experienced it in action, but I've met people (particularly in Germany) who express this kind of sentiment and leave it ambiguous as to whether they are jokingly referring to a stereotype of other stata of society, or serious.

I'd also suppose that the whole concept of 'posing' is a rather dangerous one; given that 'talking behind peoples' backs' is the seed of all discrimination, I am not sure the 'merely' isn't a bit more than that. If you say that anyone of non-white descent is a bit daft it's still racism, even if only white people are present.

[Datepalm]

"One of the guys"... I hear people use it all the time and I wonder, what does that even mean? This isn't directed at you, just a general mini-rant. Every other girl I hear who refers to herself as "one of the guys" consider some other girl who also thinks of herself as "one of the guys" not "one of the guys" at all. So who the hell really is "one of the guys" if we can't even decide what that entails?

...Thats pretty much what i'm wondering.

I should probably describe the context, which is what was going on with the kids, which I think is what escalated the matter for me.

The worst of it was a song, yelled at the top of the lungs by a group of 10-15 boys, again and again, all the time, for three days, across hills and valleys crowded with hikers, to I think a specific 16 year old girl (possibly a group of them, but I do think it was aimed at one by name) and including lines like, roughly translated, "we're gonna rip you apart, rape you dead, come in your throat, you're not only a whore but also a huge bitch", etc.

We (the guys and I) had been told, repeatedly, and warned, and our boss called, from "talking to the kids about things that weren't our place to" and "make comments that werent appropriate" like telling them to shut thier filthy mouths. All the teachers did was to reprimand them almost gigglingly. ("Oh, but you need to wash that mouth out with soap, you do, young man!") And this is a pretty good school, considered.

Now this to my mind is a completely different category from being subjected to assinine jokes...but also somewhere on the same scale. The joking was obnoxious and annoying (and I had lightly asked him to stop, lots.) but it was only after that song had been drilling in my brain a while that it became hurtful, infuriating and even dangerous.

That I handled the situation poorly is in no doubt, and underneath the immature potty mouth guy #1 isn't that bad - hes never insulted or been dismissive of me or any other woman that i've seen directly, and is usually a pretty considerate and responsible colleague (and so are guys #2 and #3, who are guilty of nothing but laughing along, and not always that) even if we're unlikely to ever be the best of friends.

The trouble is our working relashionship pretty much consists of sitting/walking/driving around for hours, drinking lots of mint tea and black coffee, playing cards and talking and talking and talking, mostly about food, sex and dumb jokes. I don't want to start huffing at or reprimanding every sexist comment that comes up, becuase then we'll have short, stiff conversations mostly about avocado. Even if i'm typically a bit annoyed, my colleagues know that its ok to tell the ocassional off color joke around me becuase they know I don't get pesonally hurt or offended by it...or so I though.

Now i'm wondering if thats really ok, and i'm feeling guilty for all those jokes I let slip by (And also annoyed, becuase, yes, they were annoying as all fuck in any context) without comment, knowing that somewhere down the line they're creating an atmosphere where its ok to yell "we'll rape you dead" to 16 year old girls, and i'm sitting there, all would be feminist, and letting it slip by.

[Faelar006]

The thing is, i'd made a few comments but they were toned down and more “thats not funny” than “this is offensive, stop now!” and i'd never really taken a stance or tried to explain that it was offensive, annoying, frustrating, degrading, dehumanizing and exhasuting to me. I'd been laughing at some of his jokes, after all, getting along, telling my own jokes, etc, and his 'humor' really wasn't aimed at me or anyone in particular.

Datepalm,

While I completely agree that you're right to be angry, the bolded section I quoted may indicate that he was receiving mixed signals from you regarding your comfort level with off-color (and frankly unfunny) jokes, depending on how off-color the jokes of his you laughed at were and how off-color the jokes you told were.

He may not have been able to make the distinction of why you found certain jokes to be funny but found others to be offensive.

Faelar

[Eponine]

I think that the best response (although the throwing of the waffle was good) would be to make a comment on the first day when it started bothering you. And if you're going to get through to an idiot at all, the STFU method is more effective than being offended or pointing out that he's a misogynist. See, because in the first approach, all the words were just one syllable.

Being "one of the guys" does have some meaning when you're in an environment that is majority male. Even if you're not going to be BFFs, there's advantage to being able to mesh well with the group without being walked on.

If you don't drag people into it who weren't part of the situation, I doubt that you'll be labeled as oversensitive. While it would be good if some of the other guys were supportive of your position, by this point it's really between you, the offender, and your boss. Standing up for yourself means standing up to the appropriate people. In most situations I've been in where someone has been labeled as oversensitive, overdramatic, lecturing, etc., people were brought into the problem who didn't belong there.

[potsherds]

The worst of it was a song, yelled at the top of the lungs by a group of 10-15 boys, again and again, all the time, for three days, across hills and valleys crowded with hikers, to I think a specific 16 year old girl (possibly a group of them, but I do think it was aimed at one by name) and including lines like, roughly translated, "we're gonna rip you apart, rape you dead, come in your throat, you're not only a whore but also a huge bitch", etc.

:stunned: Good gods. This isn't the first time I've come across such terrifying, misogynistic threats passed as humour, but I'm still shocked and terrified every time. Does anyone really think making physical and sexual threats like that to any woman in any context is ok?

[Eponine]

Ugh, I just read your most recent post... don't really know what to say.

It definitely sounds like there are multiple problems with the attitude of the group- although your boss doesn't seem very sensitive, I can understand that there might be concern about being sued or reprimanded for even the small discipline of telling the kids what to do or what not to say. I think the things you mentioned were extremely inappropriate to be saying to a teenage girl... but what can you do if those children are under the authority of their own teachers and the teachers won't do anything? :(

[Xray the Enforcer]

OK, now I want to vomit.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

:stunned: Good gods. This isn't the first time I've come across such terrifying, misogynistic threats passed as humour, but I'm still shocked and terrified every time. Does anyone really think making physical and sexual threats like that to any woman in any context is ok?

Men (in a group) can be animals. Its (at least in my experience as a guy) not a threat, merely an attempt to 1) piss people off 2) appear macho.

Testosterone is to blame really.

[BLU-RAY]

Where are these kids coming from? Juvie? That's pretty ridiculous, IMO. Like, ridiculous enough that if I came across it in a TV show or something, it would disrupt my suspension of disbelief. There's a deeper problem here than the one idiot.

[Xray the Enforcer]

No, actually I feel like vomiting and then crying for awhile.