Can I be a feminist and 'one of the guys'?

[delete this account pls]

The behaviour of the work colleague is bad, but I think you dealt with it OK. That song though? Fucking hell, that's hideous.

[mashiara]

Datepalm, I'm so sorry you had to put up with behavior like that and for so long. I understand the need to fit in with the guys and having been on the receiving end of many off-colored and down right insulting "jokes" I know exactly how you felt like laughing with them at first because that's what everybody did and it was expected of you. I don't think you overreacted at all, I'm actually glad you threw the waffle at him. Granted, you could have maybe talked to him before things reached that point but I think you'd reached your snapping point. Of course people will attribute such behavior to PMS and mood-swings, there's no avoiding this because that's exactly how many people view women. You need to take a stand at some point and let them know that you're not going to put up with such behavior. Hopefully you won't have to do it again and the guy got the message.

The bit about the song was the worst of all your posts. It made me want to throw up. I can't believe that teachers allowed this thing to go on and did not put an immediate stop to it.

I've shared my story here before, about the co-worker who kept talking trash and making all those jokes that were very personal and very humiliating. He'd been doing it for years before I joined the school and I let it slide the first year because I was too new there and everybody seemed OK with it. I just couldn't take it for a second year though and after making my displeasure known by constantly walking away from conversations (something you couldn't do in your working situation) I finally went to my principal and told him this is sexual harrassment and in any civilized country people would have put an end to it. He didn't seem to get it at first, saying it's all in good humor but understood what I was saying when I asked him "Would you like someone talking like that to your wife at her place of work?" to which we answered immediately that he wouldn't. He actually talked to the guy and he came and apologized to me, saying he didn't mean anything by it. He's been very careful around me ever since but he's still a sleezebag with the rest of the women and they don't seem to have a problem. It's like we're bred to accept such behavior here, disgusting.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Guys, I'd like to say a few things.

Firstly the level of what datepalm dealt with was higher than the worst sort of people i deal with. I don't know anyone who goes that extreme.

I've just come home after being involved in a fight with a group of guys. How did the fight start? No fucking reason at all. I'm pissed as it is, but if i had to guess, I'd say that its some sort of instinctive behaviour where you want to prove yourself to be better than the opposing side. Interestingly, the girls in our group were furious with us. I doubt they'll speak with us for a while.

I'm not condoning any behaviour (partuclarly that involving girls, i can't stand disrespect in that way) but there is something about being in a group. I can't explain it. If I'm with a bunch of guys, and drunk, I'll tend to go with whatever theyre doing

[potsherds]

I'm not condoning any behaviour (partuclarly that involving girls, i can't stand disrespect in that way) but there is something about being in a group. I can't explain it. If I'm with a bunch of guys, and drunk, I'll tend to go with whatever theyre doing

It's called lack of self-confidence and a need to reinforce your fragile ego at the expense of others.

[tzanth]

I'm not condoning any behaviour (partuclarly that involving girls, i can't stand disrespect in that way) but there is something about being in a group. I can't explain it. If I'm with a bunch of guys, and drunk, I'll tend to go with whatever theyre doing

Why the fuck is the italicized section necessary?

[Nous]

I'm surprised so many people are shocked. This kind of behaviour is fairly standard where i am.

Gregor Clegane's lands? The Scylvendi? Do tell me, so I can avoid the region.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

It's called lack of self-confidence and a need to reinforce your fragile ego at the expense of others.

Yeah, because everyone else is perfect.

I can't speak for other people, but I've definitely made mistakes and done things I'm not proud of. However, I would never pick on someone or insult them if i felt they would take it to heart.

And i live in the real world, where people are insulted and victimised every day. I'm not excusing that kind of behaviour. I simply realise that to survive you can't just whine or break down crying. Read Hobbes. Humanity = a group of animals with competing desires.

[lumer]

Probably. This school, unusually, is actually in my part of town and some of the kids live in my neighbourhood, which is probably part of the reason I took it so hard.

Which school is it? (Well not that many 'good' schools around there anyway...)

[The Wolf Maid]

DP, I'm sorry that happened to you and you had to put up with that crap. The others have said better what I wanted to say. That guy is disgusting.

I simply realise that to survive you can't just whine or break down crying. Read Hobbes. Humanity = a group of animals with competing desires.

So, are you suggesting, what, we do nothing, say nothing, let it happen, put up with it because, hey, that's the way the world works? How about doing something about the fucking situation instead?

[MinDonner]

So, are you suggesting, what, we do nothing, say nothing, let it happen, put up with it because, hey, that's the way the world works? How about doing something about the fucking situation instead?

Well, exactly. Plus, who on earth was suggesting "whining or breaking down crying" as a solution anyway? :huh:

[Chaldanya]

I simply realise that to survive you can't just whine or break down crying

Yes, that's exactly what is being advocated in this thread.

Sometimes it's hard to speak up, god knows it's all about context. But the trick is to say something when you feel it's safe for you to do so.

N

[Datepalm]

Which school is it? (Well not that many 'good' schools around there anyway...)

Ziv highschool, opposite Yad Sara on Hertzl. The Maba"r class. Most of the kids were ok, for facebook addicted teens, but theres some kind of exceptionally vile dynamic going on there in the mabar, or at least with a specific kid riling everyone up, and the teachers were just. brushing. it. by.

Just for the extra detail, the song was set to "יש לך פה עניין עם פועלי בניין"...

Yeah, thinking it over, i've decided i'm not at a stage in my life where I can afford to compromise my principles, such as they are. I'm going to try to draw my lines, stick to them and by and large raise the level of conversation. (We're a company filled with tired people, not stupid ones.) and if i'm the cranky annoying femenist becuase of that, so be it.

[Guest Raidne]

But one point I really want to make is I don't make the rules. I my self is an employee, and I've been doing this job for only 4 years in this single warehouse, my boss has had 3 different managers before me. I don't know why were fired or if they just left, but I bring every point up to my boss, and she has either brushed them off as no-problem or in a few cases told me to make like I haven't notice anything (the first 2 month of the job while I was watching a video I saw someone deal drugs behind the yard outside our fences. The boss told me as long as its not inside the fences we don't care). I bought in the poster and I took a friends advice awhile ago to speak to all the workers about work place manners and accpetable behavior before I offically hire them, it has helped, but it doesn't stop the few idiots who come with weed to work or hit on the woman during lunch. I don't keep them separated, I just don't hire male clerks. And I've fired every single person that broke any rules.

The difference between not hiring male clerks and not reporting someone selling drugs off your property is that the former is blatantly illegal. Don't get me wrong, I've worked plenty of places that had informal gender policies - I worked at a cafe that was nearly all female, and at Victoria's Secret, the sales staff was all female and the stocking crew was all male.

But....

I wouldn't admit to this in public, if I were doing this. YMMV.

That's the general idea. Now, Victoria's Secret might actually be able to make some kind of business necessity case for only hiring female sales staff, because part of the sales job is fitting women for bras. In fact, they probably already have. But you don't stand a chance. I'd pay to see someone go to the court with the defense that they enforced gender segregation to avoid sexual harassment.

Now, it doesn't seem like you're some horrible evil person or anything, but I'm an attorney and the most important legal issue for me is sex discrimination in the workplace. I've worked on a fair number of those cases. I don't care if it sex discrimination against men or women - I'm against both equally. So it's truly disheartening for me to realize that nearly 50 years later, there are still people that are woefully ignorant of the law on this subject. And yes, because it is an issue that matters to me more than any other, if you don't change your policy, I do hope that someone reports you or files suit, and if there was something I could do to make that more likely to happen, I would. I'm sorry, but there it is.

If you read the thread we have on women in the military, are you sympathetic to that argument there? I hope not, but I can't see how you wouldn't think we shouldn't allow women in the military and be consistent.

Speaking of that, and sexism, this guy in my office yesterday started complaining about how government holiday parties haven't been any fun since the Tailhook scandal ruined it for everyone. And he was dead serious. :stunned:

[Lord O' Bones]

if i'm the cranky annoying femenist becuase of that, so be it.

Don't equate the three. Cranky and annoying are both human. Feminist is a principle.

[Lightning Lord]

Ziv highschool, opposite Yad Sara on Hertzl. The Maba"r class. Most of the kids were ok, for facebook addicted teens, but theres some kind of exceptionally vile dynamic going on there in the mabar, or at least with a specific kid riling everyone up, and the teachers were just. brushing. it. by.

Just for the extra detail, the song was set to "יש לך פה עניין עם פועלי בניין"...

Yeah, thinking it over, i've decided i'm not at a stage in my life where I can afford to compromise my principles, such as they are. I'm going to try to draw my lines, stick to them and by and large raise the level of conversation. (We're a company filled with tired people, not stupid ones.) and if i'm the cranky annoying femenist becuase of that, so be it.

A bold move. I'm not sure I've got that kind of strength of character. If the guys you work with have any intelligence, they'll listen and respect you more because of it.

High-five!

[Xray the Enforcer]

Speaking of that, and sexism, this guy in my office yesterday started complaining about how government holiday parties haven't been any fun since the Tailhook scandal ruined it for everyone. And he was dead serious. :stunned:

:sick:

Are there workplace rules against kicking someone in the kidneys?

[Lord O' Bones]

government holiday parties haven't been any fun since the Tailhook scandal ruined it for everyone. And he was dead serious. :stunned:

If you can't hook some tail, what's the point?

ETA: *hides kidneys*

[Annelise]

Yeah, thinking it over, i've decided i'm not at a stage in my life where I can afford to compromise my principles, such as they are. I'm going to try to draw my lines, stick to them and by and large raise the level of conversation. (We're a company filled with tired people, not stupid ones.) and if i'm the cranky annoying femenist becuase of that, so be it.

Raising the level of conversation is an excellent goal and I think you should be proud of yourself for trying; I wish you the best, good luck.

:grouphug:

[Guest Raidne]

:sick:

Are there workplace rules against kicking someone in the kidneys?

I wish I could say I said something clever in response, but it was just one of those situations where your mouth drops open and you're wondering "did they really say that?" I'm in an office with two other girls, and given the total silence in reponse to that comment, he left before I could come up with anything.

[Xray the Enforcer]

I wish I could say I said something clever in response, but it was just one of those situations where your mouth drops open and you're wondering "did they really say that?" I'm in an office with two other girls, and given the total silence in reponse to that comment, he left before I could come up with anything.

:lol:

Next time, I suggest: "Pray tell, did a potential lawsuit just tumble out of your mouth?"

or possibly "What the fuck did you just say?!"