Can I be a feminist and 'one of the guys'?

[Chaldanya]

Next time, I suggest: "Pray tell, did a potential lawsuit just tumble out of your mouth?"

I'm really very lucky where I work - none of that happens (that I know of) around here. But at least now I have a response when it does!!

N

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

So, are you suggesting, what, we do nothing, say nothing, let it happen, put up with it because, hey, that's the way the world works? How about doing something about the fucking situation instead?

I really have to stop posting here while drunk.

I think what i was suggesting was that the only way to deal with folk like that is to throw their own stuff right back at them. In reality, words by themselves shouldn't offend you, particularly when it's rarely genuinely malicious (although that song shocked even me), if not unbelievably insensitive.

[Samalander]

Datepalm,

1) Could you write down the lyrics before translation? I can't help feeling turning it into english made it worse than it was.

2) I think the pendulum on sexual harassment has swung way too far in the other direction. I had to account to one of my former bosses for the following remark I made which a female coworker reported on: "Only girl mosquitoes bite" which was somehow perceived as a derogatory remark towards women and not for what it was, a biological fact http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosquito#Feed...abits_of_adults.

So, in general, my opinion is this witch hunt went too far. With the exception, of course, of the gruesome incident of the singing kids. One should throw the book at them (or an encyclopedia or something). As for the obnoxious guy, after one well timed slap following a particulary bad remark, he would have gotten the gist and stopped.

3) Just how leftist are you, really?

[lumer]

Ziv highschool, opposite Yad Sara on Hertzl. The Maba"r class.

Ahh but of course. I've heard a lot of stories about this school, although non so bad.

What kind of company you work for exactly? You are the me'avtahat?

Being a guy myself, things a different of course, but I am too am very uncomfortable around people making such tasteless rude jokes, all the time. Luckily for me, I don't tend to be around such people a lot (as you know my army experience is a tad different ;)), so it's not much of a problem. Were I in such a situation, well, I guess after a while I'll be "yeah yeah ok, we get it, it's not funny anymore". If that doesn't work, well waffle throwing seems like the next logical step :P

[Datepalm]

Datepalm,

1) Could you write down the lyrics before translation? can't help feeling turning it into english made it worse than it was.

2) I think the pendulum on sexual harassment has swung way too far in the other direction. I had to account to one of my former bosses for the following remark I made which a female coworker reported on: "Only girl mosquitoes bite" which was somehow perceived as a derogatory remark towards women and not for what it was, a biological fact http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosquito#Feed...abits_of_adults.

So, in general, my opinion is this witch hunt went too far. With the exception, of course, of the gruesome incident of the singing kids. One should throw the book at them (or an encyclopedia or something). As for the obnoxious guy, after one well time slap following a particulary bad remark, he would have gotten the gist and stopped.

3) Just how leftist are you, really?

The singing was pretty bad in hebrew too. I don't remember the entire thing (it was long. Verses. Chorus.) כל יום כשאת עוברת כאן ב9, אנחנו לך הולכים לפתוח את הצורה,

זה שלא אונסים אותך כל יום זה פשע, כי את לא רק זונה אלא גם ממש כלבה

and yes, there was the לגמור לך בגרון ו"עד שתמותי" lines somewhere in there.

Sure its overreacting to "only girl mosquitoes bite" but, seriously, what exactly did "accounting to your boss" consist of? were you sanctioned or even inconvenienced in any real way? I'd much rather women had the room to be occasionally over sensetive than the opposite.

3. "left" is complex to describe and includes several different axes in Israeli politics. My fundamental principle from which all stances are derived is that all human being are equal. Practically that puts me somewhere between Meretz and old kibbutzniks that are still cursing Ben Gurion as a dictator while lovingly oiling the stash of ww2 guns and brushing the dust off the early translations of Kropotkin.

Hey, you asked.

Lumer - yup. Its a fun job when it dosen't suck.

I was actually in a gari'in in the army, so except for a fondness for cardammom coffee, I didn't pick up that much typical IDF attitude there. We organized a seminar on gender issues and the military once on the base when we got a bit bored.

[thx4allthefish]

Datepalm,

at this point in this thread I feel like I should go back and collect several quotes of Xray's, because IMHO she nicely summed up your options:

1. since this happend in your working time, the top most principle of everyones behaviour (i. e. your companies crew) must be professonalism. everything (literally!) endangering that has to be dealt with sharply. if your boss is incompetent of establishing an appropriate 'environment' (= your colleagues), consider leaving. in the long run, there's nothing you have to gain.
   
2. try to emotionally detach yourself from the rest of the crew. these are not your friends or mates, these are colleagues. you work with them, drink whiskey marrocaine with them ... somewhere around here you should draw a firm line.
   
3. you have ideals (being a feminist and being a communist of sorts). these are not to interfere with the profession. OTOH the profession is not to interfere with them! period.
   
4. you snapped. so what? your boss cannot deal with that? see 1.)
   

on a more personal note: sorry you had to deal with reality in the one of the most brutal ways imaginable. try to go from here. stand your 'man' but never try to be 'one of the guys'. there is no such thing. every man will consider you on two ideas only:

a.) you are a woman they want or

b.) you are not

aim at b.) whenever at a job. top it with: (you are not) "one of those (you twit) want to cross". top it even more: be the best at what you are doing and leave those morons far behind you.

----

if I ever have to read about testosterone as an excuse for unprofessional behaviour again ...

[Chaldanya]

In reality, words by themselves shouldn't offend you, particularly when it's rarely genuinely malicious (although that song shocked even me), if not unbelievably insensitive.

Would you use the n-word and tell any offended POC around that they shouldn't be offended as it's only words? Don't be ridiculous. Words are how we communicate and what that person was communicating was his utter disdain and lack of respect for anyone who just happened to be in possession of a vagina. As as someone who has a vagina, I'm offended - don't tell me (or anyone else for that matter) that they shouldn't be.

N

ETA:

if I ever hace to read about testosterone as an excuse for unprofessional behaviour again...

Absolutely. Am v. v. tired of the maxim boys will be boys. It really is time to knock that mindset on the head.

[Samalander]

1) The singing was pretty bad in hebrew too. I don't remember the entire thing (it was long. Verses. Chorus.) כל יום כשאת עוברת כאן ב9, אנחנו לך הולכים לפתוח את הצורה,

זה שלא אונסים אותך כל יום זה פשע, כי את לא רק זונה אלא גם ממש כלבה

and yes, there was the לגמור לך בגרון ו"עד שתמותי" lines somewhere in there.

2) Sure its overreacting to "only girl mosquitoes bite" but, seriously, what exactly did "accounting to your boss" consist of? were you sanctioned or even inconvenienced in any real way? I'd much rather women had the room to be occasionally over sensetive than the opposite.

3. "left" is complex to describe and includes several different axes in Israeli politics. My fundamental principle from which all stances are derived is that all human being are equal. Practically that puts me somewhere between Meretz and old kibbutzniks that are still cursing Ben Gurion as a dictator while lovingly oiling the stash of ww2 guns and brushing the dust off the early translations of Kropotkin.

Hey, you asked.

1) Ok... it is that bad even pre-translation. Hope you at least managed to share a word with the poor girl, this sounds like drive-one-into-suicide harassment.

2) Well, I had to give a brief biology lesson. And yes, it inconveniences me to be presumed guilty and having to prove my innocence. Giving someone the right to be oversensitive means the whole "innocent till proven guilty" thing Democracy is built on just goes flying out the window. Also, sexual harassment seems to be the only crime that is classified as such according to the identity of the offender (As in "Eu..that guy is creepy, but I wouldn't mind so much if it was that cute guy doing it"), which grates on my sense of justice.

3) So... just wellfare state and civil rights for all, or re-distributed wealth and "all men must shed their national differences"?

[needle]

on a more personal note: sorry you had to deal with reality in the one of the most brutal ways imaginable. try to go from here. stand your 'man' but never try to be 'one of the guys'. there is no such thing. every man will consider you on two ideas only:

a.) you are a woman they want or

b.) you are not

Oh dear. Really? I'll go tell all my male friends to stop considering me a friend, I'm meat or I'm irrelevant.

Any of the guys want to expound on how this is really really really not how they deal with the concept of women? 'cause I'm at a loss.

OT, Datepalm, I've got no great advice except that it's a really tricky place you are in. But you seem like a confident, sure of yourself person a lot of the time, so I'd say try and remember it's more important that you think well of yourself than what some of your co-workers think of you. And if that means being a bit less buddy buddy and putting up with the sexism, so be it. Easy for me to say when I don't have to go on week long hikes with these guys though :P

[The Wolf Maid]

I think what i was suggesting was that the only way to deal with folk like that is to throw their own stuff right back at them. In reality, words by themselves shouldn't offend you, particularly when it's rarely genuinely malicious (although that song shocked even me), if not unbelievably insensitive.

I think N pretty much said what I wanted to reply back to this.

Throwing their own stuff back at them only works up to some point, and I'd rather not lower myself to their level.

What kind of "reality" are you talking about here, because that's not any "reality" I'm familiar with. It's quite silly to say words by themselves shouldn't offend you. Words have meaning and history that make them genuinely malicious.

He was using vagina in a derogatory, offensive, disrespectful, insensitive way. He may not be "genuinely malicious" but that still doesn't make it any less offensive to someone who has a vagina.

[Paddy]

In reality, words by themselves shouldn't offend you, particularly when it's rarely genuinely malicious (although that song shocked even me), if not unbelievably insensitive.

No, in theory, in some sort of impossible utopia, words by themselves shouldn't offend you.

In reality, there is no such thing as "words by themselves". There is always context and society influences and seeing as there is no place in the world, as far as I'm aware, where there isn't a patriarchal, sexist society, the words are offensive.

2) I think the pendulum on sexual harassment has swung way too far in the other direction. I had to account to one of my former bosses for the following remark I made which a female coworker reported on: "Only girl mosquitoes bite" which was somehow perceived as a derogatory remark towards women and not for what it was, a biological fact http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosquito#Feed...abits_of_adults.

So, in general, my opinion is this witch hunt went too far

The fact that there is so much rape, so much sexual assault against women, so much wage imbalance between the genders means that things have not gone nearly far enough (I'll avoid the your use of as derogatory term as "witch-hunt").

See, the blame in this situation is in no way with measures taken to combat sexual harassment. It is with people being ignorant (they didn't know that you were stating a biological fact). And that is giving you the benefit of the doubt about the context you brought the point up in and assuming you were just sharing a fact without any possible sexist context.

Can you look closer at the implications of your statement:

"I think the pendulum on sexual harassment has swung way too far in the other direction."

You are saying that we are trying to do too much to combat sexual harassment and we should cut back and allow more sexual harassment to happen to innocent women so that less unfounded claims of sexual harassment are made and less innocent men are made to squirm a little bit in some few instances.

Do you really agree with that?

[thx4allthefish]

Oh dear. Really? I'll go tell all my male friends to stop considering me a friend, I'm meat or I'm irrelevant.

Any of the guys want to expound on how this is really really really not how they deal with the concept of women? 'cause I'm at a loss.

That's how I deal with the concept. And I was not talking friends. I was talking business ... Predators Rules: can I take her down (to bed) or do I have to really put up/argue/respect her?

[ljkeane]

That's how I deal with the concept. And I was not talking friends. I was talking business ... Predators Rules: can I take her down (to bed) or do I have to really put up/argue/respect her?

Yeah, that's really not my attitude in a professional environment.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

I think you're not helping your explanation. So, even limiting ourselves to the business world, a man respects a woman OR wants to sleep with her?

[Samalander]

He was using vagina in a derogatory, offensive, disrespectful, insensitive way. He may not be "genuinely malicious" but that still doesn't make it any less offensive to someone who has a vagina.

On the other hand, in modern hebrew slang "vaginish" when spoken about a woman means "hot"/"sexy/"beautiful" and is an accepted term for all but the old/language fanatics/rabid feminists. With a slight change to the masculine it can also apply to a man.

Are we going to wage war on language now?

[Yagathai]

It's OK, Eefa. He's posting from the 1950s.

[Paddy]

Any of the guys want to expound on how this is really really really not how they deal with the concept of women? 'cause I'm at a loss.

I'm pretty sure I reiterated that point within the last week on the board. It constantly makes me make this face: :o

That's how I deal with the concept. And I was not talking friends. I was talking business ... Predators Rules: can I take her down (to bed) or do I have to really put up/argue/respect her?

::groan::

What in the suffering fuck are Predator Rules and what remote relevance do they have to anything in this thread?

ETA: Also, "do I really have to respect her?"

Dude, wtf?

[Yagathai]

On the other hand, in modern hebrew slang "vaginish" when spoken about a woman means "hot"/"sexy/"beautiful" and is an accepted term for all but the old/language fanatics/rabid feminists. With a slight change to the masculine it can also apply to a man.

Are we going to wage war on language now?

Sometimes when I say "fag" I'm talking about a cigarette. At other times it's a bundle of wood, and still other times it's about people that post on 4chan. Doesn't mean it's not a gay slur at other times. Your point isn't... logical, or valid, or smart.

[KAH]

2) Well, I had to give a brief biology lesson. And yes, it inconveniences me to be presumed guilty and having to prove my innocence. Giving someone the right to be oversensitive means the whole "innocent till proven guilty" thing Democracy is built on just goes flying out the window.

I thought you were called in to explain? How is that being presumed guilty? If you were presumed guilty, why would they bother talking to you about it?

Being asked to defend yourself != 'prove your innocence'.

[Samalander]

Can you look closer at the implications of your statement:

"I think the pendulum on sexual harassment has swung way too far in the other direction."

You are saying that we are trying to do too much to combat sexual harassment and we should cut back and allow more sexual harassment to happen to innocent women so that less unfounded claims of sexual harassment are made and less innocent men are made to squirm a little bit in some few instances.

I am saying we are trying to do too much to combat sexual harassment and we should cut back and not allow unfounded claims of sexual harassment to be made and thus fewer innocent men should be made to squirm quite a bit in a lot of instances.