Can I be a feminist and 'one of the guys'?

[mormont]

I must admit I'm having some difficulty with this idea that guys just don't know when they can kiss a woman and when they can't.

I mean, 100% certainty is sometimes unachievable, I suppose: but really, learning this shit is what your teenage years are for, both for men and women. Learning how to read the opposite sex, how to make your intentions clear without being crude, what the signals are, etc. A few awkward encounters are to be expected in adolescence, but many of you making this point are in your 20s and 30s. I hate to say it, but the impression that some people are giving is not that they have a point about how unreasonable it is to have to ask, but that they need to work on their social skills. If that's the case, then I'm afraid that's your problem, and I can see no reason why women should have to make special allowances for it.

(And lest there be any doubt, my own teenage years were pretty barren. It's not an excuse.)

[delete this account pls]

Mormont ... I wanna kiss you on the mouth right now.

[Lightning Lord]

Better safe than sorry - if you're someone who cannot comprehend obvious body language.

Ok, thanks.

I go with erring on the side of caution, but there have been times when I thought I read the body language and other signs correctly and skipped the asking part. I have also asked for permission on two separate occasions. One of the times was mildly embarrassing and we got over it, the other time I was laughingly told that she had been waiting for me to do so.

So asking in every situation, I don't totally agree with that. But I also think being really damn sure is the only situation. And if you somehow manage to screw that up, I can't imagine the amount of apologizing that would be necessary.

[Isis]

One of the times was mildly embarrassing and we got over it, the other time I was laughingly told that she had been waiting for me to do so.

I don't see any reason for that girl to laugh at you. If she was so tired of waiting she should have asked YOU/made the first move herself. Tut tut. Anyway, a little bit of embarrassment/or being told that you didn't need to ask is far, far preferable to violating someone without their permission.

You are correct to say you don't need to ask every single time if you read the signals right. But, I really do think it's better to err on the side of caution if in any doubt. The most awful uninvited kiss (in fact, kiss is a euphemism) I was subjected to was from a good friend who knew me better than most people in my life*. I know full well that wasn't a case of misreading signals, it was just someone making unfounded presumptions about what they could get away with. Maybe if that person had stopped to ask first we might still be friends now.

*but not well enough apparently

[Datepalm]

Mormont ... I wanna kiss you on the mouth right now.

Once he consents, you mean. :)

LL- I see where you're coming from, and by and large I agree in the sense that I can't imagine a date-y situation where I would sue a guy for misreading signals, but Samalander originally brought up the kissing question in relation to a case of sexual harrasment of a female soldier in the ministry of defence (ie, an 18-19 year old girl in an office setting with even more heirarchial pressure and possible sanctions placeable on her than a typical secretary. She can't just quit or not show up, and her superior or the person she might have to deal with her complaints could easily be in a different city day to day.) who sued a politician there for kissing her.

I'd like to see the statistics on how many women sued men for misreading signals after they'd been flirting with them in a smoky bar for a couple hours, as opposed to how many sue the men who 'misread the signals' of their subordinates in the office.

ETA the fruits of google: Sam: Is this (sorry, hebrew only, that i've found so far) the case you're referring to? Beacuse thats a hell of a lot more than "misred the signals and kissed her", or is it one of the list of similar ones mentioned at the bottom?

[Chaldanya]

Lightning Lord: What Isis said.

What I mean by enthusiastic consent is just making sure. Always assume that the default answer is no and ask if she/he wants to go further.

N

[Lightning Lord]

What I mean by enthusiastic consent is just making sure. Always assume that the default answer is no and ask if she/he wants to go further.

N

I understand and I agree. I wasn't clear on if you were saying that 100% of the time the question must be explicitly asked and explicitly answered. I also wanted to clarify if we were now discussing work or dating before responding, as the two situations are different.

DP:

LL- I see where you're coming from, and by and large I agree in the sense that I can't imagine a date-y situation where I would sue a guy for misreading signals, but Samalander originally brought up the kissing question in relation to a case of sexual harrasment of a female soldier in the ministry of defence (ie, an 18-19 year old girl in an office setting with even more heirarchial pressure and possible sanctions placeable on her than a typical secretary. She can't just quit or not show up, and her superior or the person she might have to deal with her complaints could easily be in a different city day to day.) who sued a politician there for kissing her.

Right, I was responding not to what Samalander writing, but to the others. The situation with the female soldier is reprehensible.

Isis:

I don't see any reason for that girl to laugh at you. If she was so tired of waiting she should have asked YOU/made the first move herself. Tut tut. Anyway, a little bit of embarrassment/or being told that you didn't need to ask is far, far preferable to violating someone without their permission.

Yeah, she could have. Would have made my night less confusing (and more pleasant) :bang: (and the final sentence, absolutely true)

[MinDonner]

I think the important thing is for people not to assume consent as the default; it is something that has to be actively given, not actively refused. Whether this be by verbal or non-verbal cues is unimportant, but seriously, if in doubt then check, don't just assume. Permission does not have to be explicit, but it has to be there.

[mormont]

Mormont ... I wanna kiss you on the mouth right now.

Dude, you are so misreading the signals. ;)

[The Iceman of the North]

Dude, you are so misreading the signals. ;)

I think someone here have to reconsider what signals he's sending out.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

I completely disagree. If it were always totally obvious when someone wants you to kiss them, we would never have the situation, even at the start of our kissing careers, where you make a move and the other person is surprised/says no/whatever. That's all learned behaviour, and it takes some people longer than others to learn it. Some people never do, and some people never care, of course, but it's still not innate.

It's also complicated by the fact that, for a variety of reasons, not all kiss-ees are comfortable being that open about their lack of enthusiasm. It's your boss, and you're afraid you'll lose your job. It's someone in a different sort of power role over you. You're so surprised that you don't react, at first, which can give the wrong signal.* You've been taught to put the other person's desires above your own. You've had bad experiences, and you actually freeze when someone leans in towards you like that. After the kissing point, you think you have to consent to Y because you consented to X. Or, slightly differently, you don't realise you can withdraw consent for X if you change your mind during the act itself.

Plus, although it's implicit, "your place or mine" is still a method of asking for consent. Those weren't really his only two possible responses, no matter how improbably any other answer was. :P (It's also shaded by the fact that you two had already been engaging in sexual activity over the evening, so it's not like the question came totally out of the blue. The earlier activity wouldn't -- and shouldn't -- automatically mean further activity, but it does alter the probability.)

*It shouldn't, because a lack of a no is not a yes, but that is still the default assumption for a lot of people.

[Eponine]

IMO, this is just a question that doesn't need to be addressed. The whole thing can be solved by going in for the kiss allowing enough time so the other person can tell what's about to happen and not grabbing the back of their head or otherwise preventing them from pulling away. If they don't want to be kissed, they will turn away, and you'll have one of those totally embarassing stories that a lot of people have. If not, count to two, maybe, before escalating that kiss into anything more...frenchified. Case closed.

This.

Acting like someone is being sexually harassed if they have to pull away from an unwanted kiss is ridiculous to me. It assumes that the person being kissed is helpless and unable to take care of themselves. Definitely there are inappropriate situations- preventing a person from pulling away, a boss kissing an employee, a stranger running up to you and trying to kiss you... but if you're already in a situation where you think a kiss might be appropriate, is it really going to be so traumatic for someone to have to turn their head and lightly push you away? If you're incapable of indicating 'no' when your peer non-aggressively leans in, it seems to me that the problem is on your side.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

And I think that if you can't wait for a clear agreement, there's a problem there, too.

Sure, everyone ought to feel comfortable making their wishes known, verbally as well as non-verbally, but that's just not always the case. Saying that any sexual activity should be opt-in, not opt-out, is not the same thing as saying that everyone who's kissed against their wish or will should seek charges of sexual assault.

[Isis]

Acting like someone is being sexually harassed if they have to pull away from an unwanted kiss is ridiculous to me.

:stunned:

[TerraPrime]

I fear that this detour into neanderthal-ville has caused us to lose sight of the issue, which is work-place sexual harassment.

It is not okay to kiss your co-workers, while you are at work.

Can we move on now?

PS: Xray, I'm officially expressing my dis-want to have you kick me in the nuts.

[Guest Raidne]

It's also complicated by the fact that, for a variety of reasons, not all kiss-ees are comfortable being that open about their lack of enthusiasm. It's your boss, and you're afraid you'll lose your job.

In this situation, the asking itself would be quid pro quo sexual harassment, so I'm afraid telling people to ask before they kiss their suboordinate is not good advice.

IMO, if it's not at work, it's just a kiss. Who cares? Clearly, the method I described in my earlier post should not be used for other things. I can just imagine it - stretch your hand slowly towards the woman's breast/fly/etc. Yuck.

WTF happens in Europe here? I guess people are just sexually harassing each other every time they say hello?

I don't think anybody has answered by question on whether you can be charged for criminal sexual misconduct for a kiss. Because otherwise, if you're not at work, and you're not going for some nasty skanky kiss, then it's just a kiss, and neither men or women can get in any kind of trouble over it.

[kiko]

WTF happens in Europe here? I guess people are just sexually harassing each other every time they say hello?

Raidne, It's a bit like the situation with health care where people in the European countries somehow manage not to go to the ER for every sneeze. I guess the same holds true for not harassing your coworkers and their parrots, even though we don't have to sit through anti-harassment training for every job we start.

[Guest Raidne]

Please, from what I understand, Italian men say things on the street with regularity that would be considered out and out sexual harassment in the states. :) I just think it's interesting that their appears to be cultural differences.

I do think it's worth pointing out one more time that in the states, its sexual misconduct if you grope someone, etc., anywhere, and it's sexual harassment if you make comments or do a myriad of other inappropriate things at work, but there's nothing illegal about telling a woman that she has a nice ass on the street, or leaning in for a kiss (although if you land it, I suppose you could be charged with tortious battery for nominal damages in civil court).

Is that true in other countries?

[MinDonner]

Seriously, how the fuck have we gotten dragged into discussing Samalander's absurd (and unlinked) "ZOMG he just kissed her and now he's a pariah!" example for the last hundred posts? Can we just agree that yes, consent is required, but no, it does not have to come in the form of a signed statement or whatthefuckever, and move on?

[Samalander]

ETA the fruits of google: Sam: Is this (sorry, hebrew only, that i've found so far) the case you're referring to? Beacuse thats a hell of a lot more than "misred the signals and kissed her", or is it one of the list of similar ones mentioned at the bottom?

No, I was just talking about the politician and the soldier (who was twenty, about to leave military life anyway and was flirting with him aggresively).

Seriously, how the fuck have we gotten dragged into discussing Samalander's absurd (and unlinked) "ZOMG he just kissed her and now he's a pariah!" example for the last hundred posts?

It's a talent I have.

And the link http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull