Can I be a feminist and 'one of the guys'?

[Rockroi]

Again, you are saying all men should come out and ask women "is it ok if I kiss you now" and get at least a verbal consent before going on? Just to be clear.

I actually think this is a valid, salient point.

The reality is, the cultural standard is that not every single kiss is preceded by spoken permission. Its just not as common as I guess X-Ray and others would hope. And its not at all clear to me why we should change. I know the first kiss my wife and I shared, I did not ask first if I could kiss her. I also know that rarely did I ask any prior girlfriends.

Are we to universalize this maxim, to wit that each and every time a person wishes to kiss another person, they must first ask permission (assuming there is not a pre-existing relationship)? That's just socially awkward and completely untenable.

Why not just keep the standard general: if its an "unwanted touching" its a form of tortious battery? Does not matter if its a kiss or a punch (I know that seems like an odd juxtaposition, but in all honesty, both things can be just as invasive). If you touch me and I do not want to be touched (and its unreasonable that you would ave THOUGHT I want to be touched) than you can sue. I fail to see why we have to import a new standard that states: "If you want a kiss you must ask nicely first."

I know X-Rays hillarious "kick you in the nuts" quote was well-received, and that's great. While I agree that women DO NOT have to send out a constant barrage of "Hi, I'm a moderately attractive female, and I just wanted to remind you that I do not wish to be kissed right now" its also equally unreasonable to expect every human on the planet jut prior to kissing to say, "Pardon me, but may I kiss you now?" Merely because the former is completey unreasonable does not mean the ladder is reasonable.

Seriously, when you take things too far you sound silly, or worse, irrational.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

I don't think too many people are saying that we need explicit "yes" or "no" answers -- not verbally, and not in writing, and not every single time, for every single act -- but that you *do* need explicit consent. And that the dividing line should be that any hazy areas should fall into the 'no' category, rather than the other way around, which is often does. ("The person didn't say no!" should not be a defense against unwanted contact, for example.)

Basically, if there is any doubt at all, err on the side of no contact until you've asked.

If you had no doubt, but it turns out you misread the signals, or you're still not getting an enthusiastic response*, pause and reassess.

Trust me, I'm not trying to kill all the sexual joy in the world. I don't think most anyone else in this thread is either. I'm just trying to do my part to create an environment where nobody's afraid to say "no" -- but if they are, I still want them to be safe. Is it really such a chore to be sure your partner(s) want to do what you're suggesting?

PS Either I'm reading it wrong, or your suing example is backwards. Could you phrase that differently, please, so I can be sure I understand what you're saying?

[Guest Raidne]

Why not just keep the standard general: if its an "unwanted touching" its a form of tortious battery? Does not matter if its a kiss or a punch (I know that seems like an odd juxtaposition, but in all honesty, both things can be just as invasive). If you touch me and I do not want to be touched (and its unreasonable that you would ave THOUGHT I want to be touched) than you can sue. I fail to see why we have to import a new standard that states: "If you want a kiss you must ask nicely first."

Isn't this how it is? It's not sexual harassment if it's not at work, in the US anyway, and kissing isn't criminal sexual conduct most places either, right? And if it was, just being negligent wouldn't get you charged anyway, would it?

For me, this is all an issue because it's at work. Otherwise, I don't think a guy has ever asked me if he could kiss me. I think there's was one guy who seemed like he might not have the guts to do so without being that sure, so I just kissed him before we really had to go there.

And ladies, I don't want to ask every guy I want to kiss if it's okay if I kiss him first either.

IMO, this is just a question that doesn't need to be addressed. The whole thing can be solved by going in for the kiss allowing enough time so the other person can tell what's about to happen and not grabbing the back of their head or otherwise preventing them from pulling away. If they don't want to be kissed, they will turn away, and you'll have one of those totally embarassing stories that a lot of people have. If not, count to two, maybe, before escalating that kiss into anything more...frenchified. Case closed.

Clearly they should teach this in school.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

I actually think this is a valid, salient point.

The reality is, the cultural standard is that not every single kiss is preceded by spoken permission. Its just not as common as I guess X-Ray and others would hope. And its not at all clear to me why we should change. I know the first kiss my wife and I shared, I did not ask first if I could kiss her. I also know that rarely did I ask any prior girlfriends.

Are we to universalize this maxim, to wit that each and every time a person wishes to kiss another person, they must first ask permission (assuming there is not a pre-existing relationship)? That's just socially awkward and completely untenable.

Why not just keep the standard general: if its an "unwanted touching" its a form of tortious battery? Does not matter if its a kiss or a punch (I know that seems like an odd juxtaposition, but in all honesty, both things can be just as invasive). If you touch me and I do not want to be touched (and its unreasonable that you would ave THOUGHT I want to be touched) than you can sue. I fail to see why we have to import a new standard that states: "If you want a kiss you must ask nicely first."

I know X-Rays hillarious "kick you in the nuts" quote was well-received, and that's great. While I agree that women DO NOT have to send out a constant barrage of "Hi, I'm a moderately attractive female, and I just wanted to remind you that I do not wish to be kissed right now" its also equally unreasonable to expect every human on the planet jut prior to kissing to say, "Pardon me, but may I kiss you now?" Merely because the former is completey unreasonable does not mean the ladder is reasonable.

Seriously, when you take things too far you sound silly, or worse, irrational.

a verbal or written conset is not needed. If you look at my example of how I react to meeting people from the internets, you can see very clearly a non-verbal acceptance of contact. All it requires is to move a little slowly to give the person time to react.

[Humble Asskicker]

Being one of the guys doesn't mean anything. Just as male and female individuals are different, so are the respective groups. Notice how most of the sensitive dudes here make the enlightened stance of proselytizing the attitude of equality, that men should never behave coarsely regarding women - not just around women, but period.

That's this group. You are going to have many other groups, many of whom would roll their eyes at that notion.

It may not seem fair, but I doubt you are going to alter anyone's long calcified attitudes on this.

And sometimes it's impossible to be "one of the guys," just for the fact that you are a female, and there's nothing to be done about them viewing you as a vagina. No eloquently worded persuasion, no manipulating their perceptions that you are as rowdy and manly as any of them.

Most of them probably just want to have some quick, easy sex with you, I bet. That's what they'll be thinking regardless of your "masculine" behavior.

And I doubt acting as sexual as they will improve matters either, as there's still that immutable cultural sense that males and females should handle their sexuality differently.

In short, observe your group, try to understand how they think, and try to tailor your behavior most befitting what you think would garner their approval, if that's what you are after.

I strongly doubt anyone here could offer you a better perspective than what you yourself could gain, being in your situation.

[ljkeane]

IMO, this is just a question that doesn't need to be addressed. The whole thing can be solved by going in for the kiss allowing enough time so the other person can tell what's about to happen and not grabbing the back of their head or otherwise preventing them from pulling away. If they don't want to be kissed, they will turn away, and you'll have one of those totally embarassing stories that a lot of people have. If not, count to two, maybe, before escalating that kiss into anything more...frenchified. Case closed.

I agree with Raidne, this seems fairly clear to me. I've always employed the slight hesitation method, that way non verbal consent or otherwise is fairly clear, sometimes embarrassingly so. :dunno:

[Humble Asskicker]

I agree with Raidne, this seems fairly clear to me. I've always employed the slight hesitation method, that way non verbal consent or otherwise is fairly clear, sometimes embarrassingly so.

Weak game.

I employ the surprise attack method when uncertain. "My grandmother died," and then go for the kiss. They'll feel so bad for you that a kiss can only be slightly awkward if undesired, and you can't bash a guy for erratic action during his moment of grief.

Later is when I clarify that I meant she died a few years ago. But it's not like I lied or anything.

You have to be clever if you want to get anything done.

[Rockroi]

Well, yeah- I mean... who the frick wants to have a "kamikaze kisser" flying at you at the speed of sound?

[Arbor Gold]

I agree with Raidne, this seems fairly clear to me.

Seriously. When you are about to kiss someone, it is very, very obvious whether they want to kiss you or not. Asking for permission to kiss someone is just ridiculous.

[Paddy]

So, you want men to always ask women before kissing them if it's ok. And it should be legislated. So say it. Why don't you say it? There is no middle ground here. Something is either legal or not. The law should apply to everyone on equal basis.

Again, all of you are skating the issue. Only Yag and Lady Cassandra gave straightforward answers -they ask permission before going in for a kiss (though not sure from Lady Cas` comment if she does that all the time).

Why are you repeating this? Do you think there's some big deal that not absolutely everyone is directly answering your question even if they are making their answer perfectly clear?

In my world and, I assume, the world of the other posters, this issue is not hard.

You ensure you have consent before kissing.

That consent does not have to take the form of an answered question. It can be based in body language and flirtation - examples have been given by others.

If anyone isn't grown up or socially adjusted enough to figure all this out without some rules, then here are a few:

• If you aren't sure the person wants to be kissed by you, don't kiss them.
  
• If you aren't sure and want to chance your arm, don't.
  

If you can't figure it out on your own but find those rules too awkward or stifling, then be prepared for the other person to feel violated.

Yes, sometimes you can get it wrong, but then try to deal with the fallout as maturely as possible. Tell the person that you got the wrong signals or misunderstood. If they still go apeshit, there's not a lot you can do.

As far as having a law about this, there are already sexual harassment laws in most jurisdictions that I am aware of and as far as I know, they cover exactly what you are asking for.

----------------------------

Arbor Gold,

see, I think it is really obvious when the other person will find it ok or not too. Yet samalander is not the first person on this board that I've seen express that they are unable to grasp this and demand that they be provided with rules for when it is ok to "make a move" on another person.

For these people, I think that asking for permission every time is probably the way to go. I think it would cause less problems in the long run.

[Arbor Gold]

Yet samalander is not the first person on this board that I've seen express that they are unable to grasp this and demand that they be provided with rules for when it is ok to "make a move" on another person.

Are we sure they aren't just doing it to be stubborn and try to make a point?

For these people, I think that asking for permission every time is probably the way to go. I think it would cause less problems in the long run.

You mean verbally ask for permission? Because, as others mention, every first kiss (well, the great ones) starts with that magical pre-kiss moment, where desire and consent are explicitly communicated non-verbally.

Also, I think it's a lot easier to say no to a kiss non-verbally. It's pretty hard if a semi-decent guy you enjoy shooting the shit with asks for a kiss and you have to say "no" to his face. Come to think of it, do people actually say "no" when asked for a kiss? (:idea: If you ask, are you likely to get more kisses because people are less likely to say no to your face?) If you don't ask but take it slow, you have time to change course if you see the flash of panic, disgust, or general displeasure cross the other person's face.

It's not rocket science.

And now I want to make out with someone. I'm going to a game store after work tonight (to browse, not to play), so maybe I'll test my theory on the Friday night gaming crowd. :)

[Lord Mord]

Datepalm,

I've not yet read anything else in the thread except for your OP, but I have a few thoughts.

Firstly,

was I being unreasonable, not giving warning before snapping?

Well, I think that's sort of beside the point. You snapped. It happens.

On the other hand, wheres the line? By letting one risque joke pass, or heaven forbid, telling one, am I now signalling acceptance of anything and everything?

Certainly not. I would say that the more openly you overtly engage the subject, the more open yet people will tend to infer that you are, regardless of any other considerations. It's their prerogative to be wrong about such things, and yours to correct them or not.

Am I giving the other guys, and guy #1 for that matter, too little credit? Could I talk to him and explain myself? Do I not then become lecturing, pretentious, oversensitive bitch girl anyway?

I know that you're concerned about perceptions, and that's reasonable to an extent, but I think you're giving the guys around you too much power to be this worked up over it. You were having fun, you stopped having fun, you got annoyed and you let them know. If you think that in future you'd like to handle things differently, that's your option, but you didn't do anything wrong.

If you're going to look at the past at all, for advice on how to proceed in future, assess what you got as the result of your actions and think about how to proceed differently, or similarly, when the situation comes up again. But to tell the truth, I doubt very much you will have lost anything huge in this transition -- whatever you've lost probably wasn't worth much, and anything worth much that you don't have now you probably didn't have in the first place.

These are the people I work with – I don't wan't to be their teacher/mother/psychologist/guide to feminism.

Then I recommend that you not.

Then again, i've spent plenty of time with plenty of men and most of them felt no need to punctuate every sentence with female anatomy.

Thank God for those men. As for the rest, since they seem to be in the minority, it's probably best to let them winnow themselves out by not being selected to procreate and pass on their bizarre mutations. That process, God willing, is already underway, and requires nothing from you but to ignore them.

Take what's good from them for what it is, and leave the rest like it never even happened. Unless it's a specific instance that just rankles, in which case, it's your God-given prerogative to raise hell, if it comes to that.

In short, I don't put much stock in your trying to be a "feminist" or "one of the guys." I recommend you just be honest with yourself, something on which I think you probably already have a pretty good handle.

[Mr. X]

Come to think of it, do people actually say "no" when asked for a kiss?

Speaking from personal experience, yes.

:leaving:

[Isis]

Come to think of it, do people actually say "no" when asked for a kiss?

Hell, yes. You can also say no if people think they've read the signals right and move in without actually bothering to ask too. I can't just 'let' someone kiss me if I don't want them to - I don't care if that makes them feel bad because I know it will make me feel even worse. If the person I'm saying no to is a friend then I need to be able to speak my mind with them anyway (otherwise they're not really a friend of mine) and therefore saying no is an acceptable outcome. If it is someone I don't know that well then who cares if they're upset about it or not...

It's all about body language. If you move into someone's personal space and they tolerate that, it's a good start (but not any guarantee of acceptance or permission), but if you move into their space and they back away that's a sign that, for whatever reason, they don't want you that close to them so respect their personal space and don't make them feel uncomfortable. However, I think we've discovered that some people either cannot or will not learn to read a person's body language. And if you're one of those people then you just have to ask outright. And I don't get why asking first has to somehow ruin the mood. Life is not a fucking fairy tale and adults should be capable of some very basic communication.

[Chaldanya]

I'm just catching up with this thread and believe me when I say that I'm gonna have heaps more to say on this thread, but I just had to address this lovely little snippet from samalander:

Shouldn't she convey her dis-want in any way? Are we supposed to make women sign consent to be kissed forms now (a few of which I had seen floating around, as a joke)?

Why should she have to convey her 'dis-want' - the default in any interaction (especially a sexual one) should be NO. Let me say that a bit more concisely: SEX IS OPT IN NOT OPT OUT. She shouldn't have to say that she doesn't want to be kissed; it should be assumed that SHE DOESN'T WANT TO BE KISSED and the man in question should ask her fucking permission. How are you advocating a society in which a woman doesn't have agency over her own person because she can be kissed/hit/sexually assaulted at will and it's only 'well she didn't say no beforehand so she must have wanted it'. You're sounding suspiciously like a rape apologist to me, sunshine.

Seriously, when you take things too far you sound silly, or worse, irrational.

Yes, but you live in a world where as seen from samalander's quote above women are expected to always be ready for sexual advances/sex; they are unable to be viewed as simply not open to sex at any time hence the incredulous tones to the question 'what? we should ask permission?' (and I wish it was the first time I've seen this on the board - or indeed in real life). I would much rather go down the road of being extremely careful and getting ENTHUSIASTIC CONSENT and have sexual assaults/harassment become less prevalent than have the status quo. And I guess I'm puzzled as to why you would want to keep the flawed society we have right now than change the fucking thing so that the number of 1 in 6 (sometimes 1 in 4) drops to something that doesn't make me want to weep.

N

[Chaldanya]

The current climate is spreading paranoia into the hearts of men.

It beats spreading the very real fear of sexual assault and rape in the hearts of women...

Are you for fucking real?

N

[zollo]

It beats spreading the very real fear of sexual assault and rape in the hearts of women...

Are you for fucking real?

N

Yes. Clearly you have kept away from threads about a certain country.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

a. No, but it happens, more than onle likes to think about. You can look it up on the web if you like.

As it happens, this was already addressed upthread. To wit:

Rape culture is pervasive insistence that false reports are common, although they are less common (1.6%) than false reports of auto theft (2.6%). Rape culture is pervasive claims that women make rape accusations willy-nilly, when 61% of rapes remain unreported.

But you keep on fighting the good fight, Sam. Make that windmill suffer.

[Lightning Lord]

Why should she have to convey her 'dis-want' - the default in any interaction (especially a sexual one) should be NO. Let me say that a bit more concisely: SEX IS OPT IN NOT OPT OUT. She shouldn't have to say that she doesn't want to be kissed; it should be assumed that SHE DOESN'T WANT TO BE KISSED and the man in question should ask her fucking permission. How are you advocating a society in which a woman doesn't have agency over her own person because she can be kissed/hit/sexually assaulted at will and it's only 'well she didn't say no beforehand so she must have wanted it'. You're sounding suspiciously like a rape apologist to me, sunshine.

N

Can I ask a question, just for clarification? This thread is directed at workplace situations, are you also advocating that in dating situations, there should always be a question posed 'May I kiss you?"

[Isis]

Can I ask a question, just for clarification? This thread is directed at workplace situations, are you also advocating that in dating situations, there should always be a question posed 'May I kiss you?"

Better safe than sorry - if you're someone who cannot comprehend obvious body language.