Can I be a feminist and 'one of the guys'?

[Datepalm]

You can say that a person is an SOB, a fucktard or whatever, it won't have any bite. But say that someone is genuinely a bad person, an unpleasant one, somehow it carries more weight. As if the use of the milder words carries with it sincerity that that does not exist otherwise.

anywho, when and where's your next trip, DP? hopefully it will be a better school than Ziv. (remind me where you went to HS in j-m?)

I didn't - I went to school in Modi'in. :leaving: (I looked it up - in 2003 Ziv had a bagrut rate of 73%, which is about the same as my highschool did at the time, when I was a student. Its hardly a perfect measure, but its something.)

Actually I was supposed to have a trip with Ziv again this week (their 12th graders to Eilat) and bailed. There are other reasons than it merely being this school, but that was up there.

wrt language - I think you're right. I can distictly trace a process from grade school and all the way through to the army, where I gradually became comfortable with words that I would not have been able to force out of my mouth a year or two earlier and would even have blushed to hear. Not to harp over "oh, back in my day", but there dosen't seem to be this process anymore. I've met ten year olds with my vocabulary.

OTOH, I heard a teenager at the mall call a girl "beautiful" יפהפיה a while back and thought what a strange word to use it was.

[potsherds]

I found this interesting article while browsing Shakesville today.

It's a few years old. Tangentially related to the topic in regards to communication between the sexes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2007/oct/0...ndrelationships

[lumer]

Modi'in... right.

OTOH, I heard a teenager at the mall call a girl "beautiful" יפהפיה a while back and thought what a strange word to use it was.

You sure it wasn't יפיופה? you know, Eyal Golan... :P

[Chaldanya]

Thanks for the link Potsherds. I do so love Shakesville...

N

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2007/oct/0...ndrelationships

A (quite positive) review of the book. Which I should really get around to reading at some point.

[Datepalm]

Interesting article Potsherds, thanks. It basically says what we've (mostly) been saying

This advice presupposes that men who persist in making unwanted sexual advances are genuinely confused, and will be happy to have their confusion dispelled by a simple, firm "No". It does not allow for the possibility that men who behave in this way are not so much confused about women's wishes as indifferent to them.

But its interesting the context it adds, in terms of a wider tendency to bury all conflict under 'miscommunication', (usually to the detriment of the weaker party, it would seem.) and especially present it like that sort of 'misread signal' is hardwired into the very nature of things.

ETA - forgot - Lumer: It was definitely יפהפיה. Also, are you suggesting mockery of Eyal Golan?!

[lumer]

But its interesting the context it adds, in terms of a wider tendency to bury all conflict under 'miscommunication', (usually to the detriment of the weaker party, it would seem.) and especially present it like that sort of 'misread signal' is hardwired into the very nature of things.

Well I found myself at times genuinely confused, I really did. I erred on the side of caution, and I did err, I was told later :(

ETA - forgot - Lumer: It was definitely יפהפיה. Also, are you suggesting mockery of Eyal Golan?

!

Interesting thing about Eyal Golan: He sings, especially in his older songs, with perfect hebrew. Perfect pronunciation, with the ח' and ע', and perfect grammar. Try to find common mistakes, and you'll find none. It's really nice to hear.

Too bad the lyrics are shit :P

[Guest Raidne]

That article makes me want to tell my husband to get bent next time he claims miscommunication as an excuse for why he didn't do something. Just reading it has made me all kinds of pissed off.

Sometimes, it annoys me greatly that one cannot live happily in a perma-feminist awkening without becoming a lesbian. I realize that's a very controversial thing to say, so I'll grant that maybe 2% of the available single men out there would be able to avoid gender-based conflict. And I generally suspect them of having acquired the attitude as a chick-getting strategy after losing out to more alpha males in other more traditional methods of mate-attraction.

Ha! Just kidding! Please don't ban me Mormont!

[TerraPrime]

Sometimes, it annoys me greatly that one cannot live happily in a perma-feminist awkening without becoming a lesbian.

If only. :)

[Merentha]

And I generally suspect them of having acquired the attitude as a chick-getting strategy after losing out to more alpha males in other more traditional methods of mate-attraction.

I'm trying my best because I know its the right thing to do, not because I want to get into the pants of women. Assuming males are only out for sex or "chicks" and always will be is somewhat...insulting. It seems like you assume that its a fundamental fault of the sex, rather than a severe problem with the culture associated with masculinity. Either that, or you assume every male is the same unless proven different. It's probably even a justifiable assumption, at that, but you are still making one.

For what its worth, I started really thinking about gender conflict in more practical terms after one of my best friends sent me a link to this Shakesville article. The part about the males who play devil's advocate and don't realize how upsetting it can be seriously threw me off, so I started talking with her and thinking about it.

[litechick]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2007/oct/0...ndrelationships

Thank you Pots. It is such a relief to read that. I want to quote huge sections of it. I will settle for just this:

This raises doubts about the wisdom of expert advice on rape prevention, which tells women to do the opposite of "softening the blow": in essence, it tells them to aggravate the offence of rejecting a man's advances by verbalising their refusals in a highly confrontational way.

[Guest Raidne]

I'm trying my best because I know its the right thing to do, not because I want to get into the pants of women. Assuming males are only out for sex or "chicks" and always will be is somewhat...insulting. It seems like you assume that its a fundamental fault of the sex, rather than a severe problem with the culture associated with masculinity. Either that, or you assume every male is the same unless proven different. It's probably even a justifiable assumption, at that, but you are still making one.

For what its worth, I started really thinking about gender conflict in more practical terms after one of my best friends sent me a link to this Shakesville article. The part about the males who play devil's advocate and don't realize how upsetting it can be seriously threw me off, so I started talking with her and thinking about it.

Wow. I have to say, my impressions of men who I interact with is a lot more positive than that (compared to the article - but I don't doubt that any of that happened, and I feel for that woman).

And really, I swear, I was just poking fun of the guys who are always accused of white-knighting around here. Alas, I would be happy to associate with more men like that, who held those opinions, in everyday life, instead of just on a message board. Unfortunately, I've only met maybe three men in real life that I could converse about feminist theory with. I know it's not fair to say it's the motive, but it certainly doesn't ever make a man less attractive. :)

[needle]

Unfortunately, I've only met maybe three men in real life that I could converse about feminist theory with.

It's not as much fun as you might think. I'll give you a call next time Zak is on one of his drunken gender relations rants and let you get an earful of it instead of me :P

[Yagathai]

Unfortunately, I've only met maybe three men in real life that I could converse about feminist theory with. I know it's not fair to say it's the motive, but it certainly doesn't ever make a man less attractive. :)

My roommate and I talk about feminist theory all the time. Thing is, we completely disagree about most of it.

[Noontidal]

I'm trying my best because I know its the right thing to do, not because I want to get into the pants of women. Assuming males are only out for sex or "chicks" and always will be is somewhat...insulting. It seems like you assume that its a fundamental fault of the sex, rather than a severe problem with the culture associated with masculinity. Either that, or you assume every male is the same unless proven different. It's probably even a justifiable assumption, at that, but you are still making one.

For what its worth, I started really thinking about gender conflict in more practical terms after one of my best friends sent me a link to this Shakesville article.

I read that article or one like it quite some time ago. As before it's just another attempt to justify or blame someone else for their own rabid, sometimes irrational hate and bigotry. I am guessing this is why people don't do honest assessments of traditional hate groups(triple-K, etc) - they might have to admit that this ilk is nothing more than yet another hate group. Hate is hate, and bigotry the same regardless of who happens to be doing it or their conjectured reasons for maintaining it as such. People have their experiences and largely base their life decisions and interpretations of life upon the same. Being a board that I would guess reads a lot, I would assume that most here have at least a basic understanding of how differently people think. Each time you read a book, it gives you a rather intimate quick glimse of the author's mind. I recommend this book for guys wanting to understand how they may be perceived by some women.

As to the other part - if I said all women were dwarfs, assuming I was taken seriously, it could quickly be pointed out that, in fact, they are not all dwarfs. The 'universal' statements about men thinking about sex, unable to have a friendship with the other gender without sex being involved (unless gay(how happiness changes things, I am not sure)) are equally untrue. Just as there are women that are dwarfs, there are men for whom the 'universal' sex truths are true, but for most they are not, at least not without a great deal of variance. People are great at putting a round peg into a round hole, and then putting the triangle peg into the same hole because they came make it fit.

[Guest Raidne]

My roommate and I talk about feminist theory all the time. Thing is, we completely disagree about most of it.

Ha!

Seriously, Even here, there are differences. For instance, I have a male friend who's read everything Martha Nussbaum has ever written on gender theory, and so if he wants to give me her critique of her, great. That's hardly the phenomena in the article.

Otherwise, it's just as annoying as any other instance of "everyone has an opinion" blather of the sort that we're discussing on the thread devoted to bashing people who think "intellectual" is an insult.

Of course, I don't get that feeling that someone killed my kitten when people act like that about gender issues like the author of that second article apparently does, but I think I've argued with the other feminists here enough on that subject already, and they already know how I feel about the drawbacks of perpetually envisioning oneself as a victim. And, you know, we can't all relate to everything. For instance, I can't imagine in a million years deciding to pretend to be asleep to avoid a rape, as was recounted in the first article. I mean, really, I just don't understand that in any way whatsoever. However, I don't need to relate to it to realize that my inability to do so doesn't make it any less of a prosecutable rape.

One more thing - one thing that annoys me about the way that these stories are recounted is that I'm positive that there is circumstantial evidence that made these women think that these particular men were likely to commit further physical violence if they resisted, but its not included in the narrative.

[Lord O' Bones]

Boobs. Boobs? Boobs!

Also, SMASH!!!!

...and boobs!.

[Lord of Oop North]

Boobs. Boobs? Boobs!

Also, SMASH!!!!

...and boobs!.

He has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to a dictionary. [Adjusts monocle]

[Guest Raidne]

Each time you read a book, it gives you a rather intimate quick glimse of the author's mind. I recommend this book for guys wanting to understand how they may be perceived by some women.

Oh I forgot all about that book, and I've been meaning to read it for forever. And Noon, where were you when I was asking for book recommendations on women's issues for my book club? This is perfect!

[MinDonner]

He has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to a dictionary. [Adjusts monocle]

boobs - 7 dictionary results

boob¹  /bub/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [boob] Show IPA Slang.

Use boobs in a Sentence

See web results for boobs

See images of boobs

–noun

1. a stupid person; fool; dunce.

2. British. a blunder; mistake.

–verb (used without object)

3. British. to blunder.

Origin:

1905–10, Americanism; back formation from booby¹