Can I be a feminist and 'one of the guys'?

[Mlle. Zabzie]

The situation makes me a little sad and a little sick.

Kat, thanks for the great link.

[amicoa]

Sorry to put up another post so soon, im sure there is a rule somewhere about this.

But I gotta say this, a lot of people live and work in office environments that don't have my kind of problems, but living in NYC is completely different, this is a cutthroat world, either you have the cheapest product and best quality or 20 freakin competitors spring up out of thin-air, I'm not happy about it. If you think is unfair here and want to change the atomsphere, be my guest, I work 12 hours a day, both shifts in my warehouse, I make good money, but nothing compare to the owner. If you can change america's consumer industry I will gladly get a another job a few years to see what people can do. otherwise Please don't say my tactics are bad because if you ever come to NY and work in Brooklyn or queens or god forbid the bronx warehouses then you'll realize i treat my workers with respect and I do what I actually positively can do and still earn money.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

You do actually realise that's not a defense of any sort, right? "I know I'm breaking the law, but times are tough! The guy next door hires kids, and how can I compete with him when he literally pays in shiny pennies?"

i treat my workers with respect

I bet you'll find people who disagree with you. Some are even your own (ex-)employees. Some might even not be women.

[Guest Raidne]

The thing here is your assuming I haven't tried.

I did try. I hired 5 clean highschool grads that did the good decently and knew manners costed me 13/hr each....

No, you're assuming that the organization he works for, the EEOC (heard of them?) cares about any of that.

Sorry to put up another post so soon, im sure there is a rule somewhere about this.

Yes, it's called Title VII. It's been the law for nearly half a century.

An easy way to educate yourself - go rent North Country - that movie with Charlize Theron. Same kind of workplace.

But I gotta say this, a lot of people live and work in office environments that don't have my kind of problems, but living in NYC is completely different, this is a cutthroat world, either you have the cheapest product and best quality or 20 freakin competitors spring up out of thin-air, I'm not happy about it. If you think is unfair here and want to change the atomsphere, be my guest, I work 12 hours a day, both shifts in my warehouse, I make good money, but nothing compare to the owner. If you can change america's consumer industry I will gladly get a another job a few years to see what people can do. otherwise Please don't say my tactics are bad because if you ever come to NY and work in Brooklyn or queens or god forbid the bronx warehouses then you'll realize i treat my workers with respect and I do what I actually positively can do and still earn money.

We did! Those were the arguments people made nearly 50 years ago!!! They lost! We made it illegal to take the approach you're taking. That was the solution. We did change America's consumer industry - you guys just didn't get the memo.

And, FTR, the law does make an exception for small employers. "Small" is defined as 15 or less. You've already said you have more, so your sob story does not meet the exception created for the situation you're claiming to have.

I mean it with all my heart when I say that you are going to get sued. Don't say I didn't warn you. I've written and deleted several points of advice that you could use to help yourself in this situation, because I decided I don't want to risk the whole legal advice conundrum given that your company is such a walking lawsuit. Really - there are hundreds of winning cases with exactly the same facts as yours.

Best of luck. *sigh* Okay, one thing: try a video on the first day when they do the tax forms. I can't say whether it might be a step toward fulfilling any beneficial legal presumption people get for engaging in statutorily compliant anti-sexual harassment training, but it might work better, in terms of getting people to cut it out with the sexual harassment.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

The best thing is to make sure to keep mixing the gender population to a minimal.(all female in office and all male in the warehouse)

Did you read the Rape Culture article Kat posted?

All you have done so far is make excuses. Your additude is exactly what helps to create the Rape Culture.

Are you sure you are the manager and not one of those working in the warehouse? (no offense meant, but you don't come across like any manager I have ever known)

edit: my space bar sticks :/

[Paddy]

This thread is really depressing :(

I'm so sorry that you had to experience that shit Datepalm.

"One of the guys".... hm

I'm pretty sure I've experienced the implied sexism in someone complimenting a woman with that phrase. It's sad to think that when I was younger, I'm sure I was guilty of it myself.

"One of the guys.... because guys are so easy going, just like you. You aren't like other women... they just nag... can't take a joke... is she on her rag?"

:sick:

I don't have any easy answer about where to draw the line about jokes of questionable taste. I don't make them myself, unless I'm really confident that what I'm saying is so absurd that people will realise that I'm saying it with ironic intent. But just because I don't, that doesn't inherently mean that I think that no one else ever should.

However, what I will say is that I find it disheartening to think much about how bad society is when people are afraid that they'll be seen as killjoys because they want to keep telling people to STFU for being offensive.

A brighter thought is about how much progress has been made in discouraging such mindsets in the past 100years, it's just really disheartening to face the reality of how much is left to do.

This is why I think Political Correctness is a Great Thing and I find those who complain about it (when in reality, they can't understand it) as small-minded as those who make such awful jokes.

[Ocean of Notions]

What's this crap about not mixing the genders? How are we going to have mutual understanding if we keep promoting difference?

One of the places I used to work at, off-coloured jokes were tossed around all the time, but only with the understanding that everyone was OK with it. If any of the crew responded with discomfort or asked for the jokes to stop, the would have immediately. The only time someone didn't back off after being told that the conversation he was trying to start was inappropriate and not appreciated, that dude got fired. So I suppose a casual work place with jokes, etc. can be done. But that requires everyone involved to possess a certain level of maturity. None of that crew was below the age of 19. Most were in their 30s.

[amicoa]

Well after spending the last 5 mins reading what everyone had said I really can't say anything.

But one point I really want to make is I don't make the rules. I my self is an employee, and I've been doing this job for only 4 years in this single warehouse, my boss has had 3 different managers before me. I don't know why were fired or if they just left, but I bring every point up to my boss, and she has either brushed them off as no-problem or in a few cases told me to make like I haven't notice anything (the first 2 month of the job while I was watching a video I saw someone deal drugs behind the yard outside our fences. The boss told me as long as its not inside the fences we don't care) I bought in the poster and I took a friends advice awhile ago to speak to all the workers about work place manners and accpetable behavior before I offically hire them, it has helped, but it doesn't stop the few idiots who come with weed to work or hit on the woman during lunch. I don't keep them separated, I just don't hire male clerks. And I've fired every single person that broke any rules.

[Lightning Lord]

deleted by poster

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

Fuck me, this thread delivers. Depression, but it delivers.

And I've fired every single person that broke any rules.

Which rules? The rules prohibiting sexual harassment?

[Lightning Lord]

Sorry, realized I wasn't posting to the topic at all.

DP,

I'm sorry you've had to deal with that. The song you described...wow. Just stunningly awful. No excuse for that, no matter how "the guys" gets defined, it shouldn't include such hateful abuse. (Tempted to add "especially when directed at one person," but really, it's terrible no matter what)

As others have said, blowing up suddenly after not making and noise about the behavior for three days wasn't the most reasonable reaction, but we all have our breaking points and I've done something similar. Even slammed a table and stormed off in a huff :thumbsup:

But, you did talk to the guy afterward and while he doesn't seem to be the most enlightened male ever, he can probably find a way to understand your point. I hope he can let up a bit on his off-color jokes, maybe find a way to diversify his collection of wit? Even if this one guy does think you're a PMS bitch, the other guys will probably shout him down if he tries to mention it to them. They're not total idiots, right?

I don't keep them separated, I just don't hire male clerks. And I've fired every single person that broke any rules.

Do you also refuse to employ female warehouse workers? If you're going base your hiring on gender, you might as well go full tilt.

[Lord O' Bones]

Datepalm:

I am late to this but here are my two cents:

<snip>

The main thing is to take the emphasis off you and put it on him. You do that and he'll calm down.

Well, said Rock. Saved me a lot of typiing.

Amicoa, I understand what you're saying, I really do. But you're not allowed to let it work like that anymore. I don't know what else to tell you.

Datepalm, how unfortunate for you also in that out of the two other guys, neither one was either a white knight or a smartass. Obviously, the WK would have shut him down in about a half an hour. But if I'd a smartass had been there it wouldn't have taken too much longer. I mean turning that shit back on him would be so fucking easy. The burns just write themselves, really.

I have no words about the song though. Teachers allowing it to continue? I guess there's too much of a cultural divide here for me to really understand how 'the song' happened at all.

[Xray the Enforcer]

amicoa -- you're taking a fair bit of heat in these threads and I thank you for responding politely.

[TerraPrime]

I don't know why were fired or if they just left, but I bring every point up to my boss, and she has either brushed them off as no-problem or in a few cases told me to make like I haven't notice anything (the first 2 month of the job while I was watching a video I saw someone deal drugs behind the yard outside our fences. The boss told me as long as its not inside the fences we don't care)

Then I hope to dogs that you've got documentation to cover your own ass when the impending lawsuit hits your company.

I don't keep them separated, I just don't hire male clerks.

That is job discrimination based on sex, which is against the law. I wouldn't admit to this in public, if I were doing this. YMMV.

[King Nobody]

My sister was being sexually harassed by a guy from another department for a while in the store we used to work in but she was to afraid to go to that guy's department manager because she said he encouraged that type of behaviour. I never knew the guy so I can't really speak on the accuracy of that but there's obviously something he did to make her think that way of him. She didn't want to go to our department manager either because she didn't want to "cause trouble" and because our department manager probably would have went and talked to the other guy's dept manager and she thought the other guy wouldn't have done anything for the same reason she didn't want to go to him and then it would have continued and she thought our dept manager would think less of her for some reason. I think eventually she ended up talking to one of the assistant store managers and it solved the problem. But just the fact that she let it go on for so long was pretty troubling.

@Datepalm

Next time if you have to share a room with guys pick the most socially awkward ones. Not Seth Rogen socially awkward though, Michael Cera socially awkward. All of your problems will be solved.

[Lord of Oop North]

Datepalm, you truly are a bleeding heart leftist! I wouldn't have put up with him for as long as you did.

No. The best thing to do is teach people how to behave in a professional manner when in the workplace and fire them if they can't manage it.

Exactly

the problem is your mixing under-paid uneducated people, is not easy in this environment to keep things in check.

Look, this is a cop-out. I've worked in an industry for ten years that is dominated by people that are under-paid, uneducated, and often unable to speak the language of the country, and was once one of those people myself. You can blame it all you want on the underclass, but it's still your fault as a manager. You failed to do your job. Respect can always be maintained. Don't tell me it can't be done, because I've seen it done, and I've done it, as well.

I've managed crews of guys who'd normally make a surly sailor out of Lisboa blush and poxy dock-whores cry at their approach, but have had them work at a university that was just teeming with the opposite sex, with absolutely no problem at all. Why? Well, first of all, contrary to popular opinion, not all of us members of the uneducated underclass are unable to keep our hands to ourselves, but also, because they were taught respect. Anything less is totally inappropriate, unprofessional, and just unnecessary. If they didn't learn, well, they got fired. Thankfully, that doesn't happen too often.

If you can't do it, then you aren't doing your job, and frankly, you probably shouldn't be in management.

Sure, people are going to make comments and jokes, or whatever. It happens. That's life. But the situation that you described is not 'unavoidable'. Behaviour like 'grab-assing' is totally inappropriate and is a lawsuit waiting to happen. I'd suggest that you step-up your training programs, and probably rethink your hiring practices.

ETA: Clarified.

ETA2: Ok, that probably sounds harsh. It's not easy. Believe me, I know. But it can still be done, and you should never accept a hostile workplace. To do less is simply unacceptable. Excellence demands vigorous effort. That's really all there is to it.

[tzanth]

As a guy-feminist I feel that the answer to the title is fairly self evident.

I'm curious to hear male opinions here – was I being unreasonable, not giving warning before snapping? On the other hand, wheres the line? By letting one risque joke pass, or heaven forbid, telling one, am I now signalling acceptance of anything and everything? Am I giving the other guys, and guy #1 for that matter, too little credit? Could I talk to him and explain myself? Do I not then become lecturing, pretentious, oversensitive bitch girl anyway? These are the people I work with – I don't wan't to be their teacher/mother/psychologist/guide to feminism. Then again, i've spent plenty of time with plenty of men and most of them felt no need to punctuate every sentence with female anatomy.

IMO you were being extremely reasonable. These people sound like complete jackasses. There is nothing inherently wrong with a risque joke, but when they are repeatedly delivered in a demeaning fashion a line has certainly been crossed.

[Annelise]

Raidne - You're right, and it did go through my head - media, parents, something. But I also know that this isn't some wildely unusual case, and that everyone is going to see it - teachers and girl yelled at included - as maybe a bit offensive, but still, "just humor", and certainly not complain.

Wow, that's fucked up. It's tough combating a social norm, especially when it's viewed as "humor". ETA: I would flip the fuck out if my son did that.

[Ser Greguh]

It's not possible to be a feminist and one of those guys. It's not possible to be a decent human being and be one of those guys either. Find a different group of guys to be one of.

[sologdin]

DP--

marxist to marxist, no BS: offense is the least ineffective form of defense--knock their fucking blocks off next time. no words, uncle joe style.