The Police Are Your Enemy

[davos]

Using incidents which still, statistically, are very rare to accuse the police as a body of being your enemy is about as sensible as attempting to paint any other demographic groups as single hive mind entities by focusing on isolated incidents.

I would agree that the police should not be condemned as a group. They perform a necessary function for society and incure significant personal risk in doing so. On the other hand police brutality and misconduct are a significant problem in this country. Numerous incidents are documented here and here. Or there is this lovely incident in which police killed an elderly woman in a raid on her home using a warrent issued based off evidence the police had created. The police then planted drugs in the home as a part of their attempt to cover up the incident. Just google "police" and "wrongful death" sometime for some other examples of extreme cases.

As I mentioned before police are charged by society with enforcing the laws and maintaining the peace. To do so they are granted with tools, resources and authority that are not available to the average citizen. In turn society charges the police with using the powers provided to them responsibly. If the police violate that trust we have the right to hold them accountable for their actions. Given the frequency that occurs in this country its reasonable to hold the police as a group suspect. There are many excellent cops out there that deserve our respect and gratitude. Unfortunately there are enough bad ones that the institution has been marred. In a similar vane if you have one priest who sexually abuses children its a tragedy but not a problem with the church as a whole. When you have many priests who abuse children and are then protected by the church you have an institutionally problem that must be addressed as such. The same holds true here. There are many police who step far out of bounds. Therefore we are dealing with an institutional problem and not simply a few bad eggs.

[Namorath]

They apparently thought he was a major drug dealer or something. How ELSE would you raid a place you suspected to be the den of a major drug dealer?

I mean, the big issue here is their shitty information, with IS a problem.

There was a tail end of a This American Life a few weeks back that talked about this kind of thing. Many police department fund themselves on search-and-seizures like this one was supposed to be and will take any excuse to raid a house.

can i see where u got that information shryke about police department funding from search and seizures? that doesnt happen in canada, all seized funds go straight to the government but then we do play more in taxes, unlike the USA where taxes are seen as a tool of satan

as a police officer myself i would point out that police dont make the rules they just enforce them and if we didnt other people would bitch and complain but then we dont do crazy shit like going after people who grow their own personal stash. there are more important crimes to deal with

[Shryke]

can i see where u got that information shryke about police department funding from search and seizures? that doesnt happen in canada, all seized funds go straight to the government but then we do play more in taxes, unlike the USA where taxes are seen as a tool of satan

as a police officer myself i would point out that police dont make the rules they just enforce them and if we didnt other people would bitch and complain but then we dont do crazy shit like going after people who grow their own personal stash. there are more important crimes to deal with

Canada is different from the US. News at 11.

[BigFatCoward]

Stego, can you change your statement to 'fuck the american police', because here in the UK most of us walk around in villages in silly hats whistling and walking at a regulation 2.5 MPH.

this is the reason i never want to carry a gun, i trust myself, but not a lot of the people i work with.

Unfortunately the police are drawn from the general population they have the same issues as everyone else, just more power to impose them if they aren't kept in check.

[Eurytus]

I would agree that the police should not be condemned as a group. They perform a necessary function for society and incure significant personal risk in doing so. On the other hand police brutality and misconduct are a significant problem in this country. Numerous incidents are documented here and here. Or there is this lovely incident in which police killed an elderly woman in a raid on her home using a warrent issued based off evidence the police had created. The police then planted drugs in the home as a part of their attempt to cover up the incident. Just google "police" and "wrongful death" sometime for some other examples of extreme cases.

Don't get me wrong. I don't deny that the police have a great many issues to deal with and that incidences of corruption or inappropriate use of force, racism etc are all troubling.

But using bland and incorrect statements like "the Police are your enemy" or using incidents like this to tar the police as a whole is counterproductive.

[Ran]

FLoW,

I fear I'm always in favor of assuming the best, and being prepared for the worst, rather than coming in assuming the worst. In this case, I think general policy ought to be that if there's no evidence of violent crime on someone's record (and I've heard no evidence that this man had any criminal record to speak of), you come in soft and maybe you have SWAT standing outside as back up in case they move towards violence. Instead, they assumed the worst and rushed in. (This same mindset is also why the incidence of tasers being used -- even against non-violent individuals -- have gone way up in recent years)

If they had come in soft, they could have patiently asked the people to secure the dogs in a room, and I expect the dogs would not have been remotely so wound up to begin with. But no, a bunch of men in black burst in, yelling and carrying on, terrifying the people in that house; the tension goes way up, the dogs think it's a threat and they react to that, trying to protect their territory and their people.

I expect you're never going to get most any police force to agree to this standard, because "it could put officers at risk", but that's pretty much their job description: to put themselves on the line in the service of the law and the protection of the community. I'd rather the officers be at risk of being harmed than that 7-year-old boy, his mother, or, indeed, their dogs.

I think it's a well-known and indisputable fact that SWAT forces are heavily over-used by police forces across the country. Radley Balko (the same as posted about this at Reason, and obviously -- as a libertarian -- rather concerned by such things) reported on it back in 2006 in the Washington Post.

[TerraPrime]

I'd be curious to see what "probably cause" they have for believing that this guy is a big-time dealer. Did they follow up on the tip? Did they do a couple of stake-outs? What evidence led them to expect a big gun fight?

[Shryke]

I'd be curious to see what "probably cause" they have for believing that this guy is a big-time dealer. Did they follow up on the tip? Did they do a couple of stake-outs? What evidence led them to expect a big gun fight?

Try this: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/405/inside-job

The last story (a good ways in btw) is on a former cop essentially "punking" cops and exposing how low their standards for raids like this are.

(The first story is also really good/enraging and will teach you more about the Economic Meltdown)

[Stego]

Can anyone honestly think of a crime a police officer ever prevented? They tax us with tickets, abuse our civil rights, and supposedly investigate crimes. (Anyone know of a case actually getting solved?)

Police exist as a strong-arm of business. They exist to keep poor people in line. They're basically overseers to our slaves.

Eurytus:

You were long ago ignored, so if you are talking to me, it's not being heard.

[Eurytus]

Anyone know of a case actually getting solved?

I guess the people in prisons all around the world just walked up to the gates and asked to be let in then.

[Ran]

Can anyone honestly think of a crime a police officer ever prevented?

An increased police force combined with smarter policing in New York City contributed to a 75% drop in the homicide rate in the course of just over a decade. The police can't be said to be the sole factor in this decrease, but they were a significant part of it.

How many criminals have been brought to justice because of police officers? A lot. Police officers generally prevent crimes by leading people to never even attempting a crime -- and "Police officers reduce crime rates, no visible crimes take place" isn't exactly something that's going to end up on the front page of a paper -- and by bringing those who committed criminal offenses to justice. Police officers are fairly poor at actually stopping a crime as it's happening, because of the reality that they're just people, they need to get from point A to point B, and so on.

They're not there to magically show up and save you as you are being mugged (though it happens). They're there to reduce the chances that you'll end up threatend with a mugging in the first place (and this definitely happens).

I don't really know why you're being asinine about this; you're coming off like a complete crank, and I'm sure that's not your intention. I'm trying to imagine a country without a police force, and it's a pretty scary notion.

[TerraPrime]

Can anyone honestly think of a crime a police officer ever prevented? They tax us with tickets, abuse our civil rights, and supposedly investigate crimes. (Anyone know of a case actually getting solved?)

I received a threatening phone call when I was in college. The police investigated, found the guy who called, and it was resolved.

In several places we've lived, the police have always been responsive and helpful when we called for noise violations in the neighborhood.

There was a fatal shooting in Madison, and the police tracked the culprit down in Chicago and made an arrest.

Crime prevention is rather odd as a concept for police. If we're decrying police abuse of power now, how would we react when they start to act before a crime is committed? And how are we to collect and tally the statistics on this?

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Holy crap, and issue Stego and I agree on. Someone should really write this down.

The police are not a service provided by the government. They are an occupying force designed to protect the interests of the politically connected, and to obtain revenue for the government. This is no different from the Army's current mission in Iraq.

And rare? RARE?

http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/

Sort of busy day today, but before I get into the normal feed recap there are some reports that should be mentioned that won't make it into our stats either because they were already recorded months ago or because they don't involve sworn officers.

Also of note, The Village Voice has published the audio recordings made by a police officer who alleged that the NYPD has made a practice of manipulating crime statistics by altering charges against suspects, questioning claims by crime victims, and pressuring cops to make quotas of specific types of charges. This led to cops being pressured to increase questionable stop and frisks while also reporting fewer actual crimes. The officer first went public with his claims in February as we recorded back then, but only now was it discovered that he recorded it all and the hundreds of recordings he made, which include more hints of misconduct, are going public too.

Finally, the Kankakee County Illinois Jerome Combs Detention Center is the subject of at least 15 different lawsuits, all alleging that staff abused detainees with tasers, some of which who were strapped into restraint chairs and repeatedly tasered, and at least one pretrial detainee who was later acquitted of the charges that put him there. The report goes on to allege that at least 101 people were tasered in that jail from 08/07-12/09 but only 4% were officially reported… This one doesn't qualify for our stats since no sworn officers were involved, but it's a pretty noteworthy report considering it indicates that this kind of abuse is pretty widespread. .

Ok, so now lets review the 20 police misconduct-related reports that were tracked by our National Police Misconduct News Feed today, May 5, 2010:

That shit was from YESTERDAY. Go through the blog. You'll find similar entries every fucking day.

[Stego]

I don't really know why you're being asinine about this; you're coming off like a complete crank, and I'm sure that's not your intention. I'm trying to imagine a country without a police force, and it's a pretty scary notion.

Easy with the 'asinine' comments, man.

A police force is a new development, actually. There certainly wasn't one when this nation was founded.

And I'm not preaching anarchy, nor am I stating that the idea of a police force is a bad one. I am against the reality of it. Poorly trained double digit IQ'd sociopaths are not the folks who ought to be running around with glocks.

People get convicted of crimes all the time, but there's no way of knowing if the police planted the evidence or invented the crime. There are hundreds of stories of police abusing their power, but folks continue to maintain that this abuse is a minority behavior. Ask the folks in New Orleans during Katrina about the average police officer.

Billy, you say that police stopped a nutcase from calling you. I submit that a good stern talking-to is hardly prevention. The nutcase made a conscious choice to cease his behavior. I submit a big friend with a baseball bat would have done the trick just as well with far less cost to the taxpayer. The bat also works for noise complaints. :D

You also say a fatal shooting occurred, and the police caught the 'culprit.' You have no way of knowing that. We're a nation that puts innocent people in jail for decades.

[Stego]

They are an occupying force designed to protect the interests of the politically connected, and to obtain revenue for the government.

You won't convince people of this glaring truth until they see it for themselves.

[Stego]

We had a similar SWAT-team bust of a guy down the street. The dude was a drug dealer. Probably still is, although not so openly. Yes, the police shot his dogs (pit bulls, of course) on sight. Apparently, it's standard procedure, as many drug dealers train dogs to attack.

Emilie,

What do you have against drug dealers? Seriously? Watch too many movies? He wasn't selling crack or meth out of his house, I quite imagine. Folks who deal out of their house tend to sell hormones and plants. Do you really believe these people are criminals?

Do you not question frivolous, pointless laws?

Also, is there really a difference between a corgi and a bull dog? I'm much bigger and stronger and more capable of violence than you. Should cops shoot me and talk nice to you?

ETA: People someday will look back on people being imprisoned for pot the way we look back on burning witches. - Joe Rogan

[Eurytus]

And rare? RARE?

http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/

That shit was from YESTERDAY. Go through the blog. You'll find similar entries every fucking day.

Compared to the total number of cops out there? Yeah, that's rare.

And there's so many "allegedly's" in those incidents that it makes the head spin. And some of them aren't even crimes at all.

A Central Point Oregon police officer previously assigned as a school resource cop has been reassigned to patrol duties after an investigation that was started when his wife discovered him in bed with a recently graduated high school student. While it’s believed that the affair went as far back as when the girl was a minor and still a student, no charges will be filed in this case.

I wasn't aware an affair was illegal. The last sentence is nothing other than the sort of completely unsupportable claim you see in tabloid newspapers all the time when they want to throw shit without getting called on it.

"It is believed", "sources claim", "some say" any sentence following this sort of intro is inherently worthless.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Compared to the total number of cops out there? Yeah, that's rare.

Do recall that this is only the shit that makes it through the "blue wall of silence". Multiply whatever number of cops that actually face any kind of discipline (not necessarily criminal charges) by 10 or so and you'll have the number who have committed crimes.

I wasn't aware an affair was illegal.

It's not. A school cop having sex with students (even those of age)? If not illegal then absolutely inappropriate.

[Eurytus]

Do recall that this is only the shit that makes it through the "blue wall of silence". Multiply whatever number of cops that actually face any kind of discipline (not necessarily criminal charges) by 10 or so and you'll have the number who have committed crimes.

It's not. A school cop having sex with students (even those of age)? If not illegal then absolutely inappropriate.

An allegation of a crime is not proof that a crime took place.

And the affair was with a recently graduated student. Not a student.

[Reek]

it’s believed that the affair went as far back as when the girl was a minor and still a student