The Police Are Your Enemy

[Stego]

#1 - End the prosecution of vices. Drugs, prostitution, gambling, etc. These are not "crimes", they are things which annoy the politically powerful.

#2 - End the use of "Paid Confidential Informants". This policy is simply begging for abuse, defies oversight, and is completely contrary to the right to confront your accuser.

#3 - Disarm the police. Cops in other countries go about unarmed, they can here too. If that creates an "intolerable risk" to "officer safety", then I counter that armed police are an intolerable risk to my safety.

#4 - Rigorous prosecution of Police crimes. A wrongful arrest is kidnapping. Lying on a warrant application to acheive a wrongful arrest is perjury and kidnapping. Beating a suspect is felony assault. Sexually assaulting someone in custody or under arrest is aggravated rape. "Internal review" is not acceptable, no one else in society gets this benefit. Start filing charges. People in a position of trust get the maximum penalty. Department disciplinary procedures are not acceptable. "Following department procedure" is not acceptable when it breaks the law.

I agree with 1, 2, and 4. I disagree with 3.

I would also add:

-Get rid of cops as sources of community income. They should protect and serve on the road. Arrest folks driving unsafely and helping out stranded motorists, not fill fund raising quotas.

-Get rid of tasers.

-Drastically reduce police forces, as swat teams and fund raising patrols are not needed. State police or county sheriffs or local police... not all three.

-Drastically increase the pay of police.

-Severely impose IQ and emotional stability tests. The slightest hint of sociopathic or cruel behavior results in a lifetime ban from police work. Our protectors should be among the best of us, not the cruelest and least educated.

-Violence against a citizen should never be a precaution.

-As the public is the employer of the police, all incidents of arrest and questioning need to be videotaped and be available for public viewing via the internet. If enough individual citizen complaints are filed, that police officer must be fired.

-Police need to be put on trial each and every time their actions lead to the loss of life of one of their employees. (citizens) No exceptions. They need to know they will be held accountable for every life they end.

ETA: If they incorporated the majority of these changes, I would stop thinking of police as my enemy.

[snake]

From what I've read I think some people should be lucky we have the police we do and not the kind in Russia. Then you'd actually have something to complain about.

[Mad Monkey]

I'd rather a neighbor that lifted stuff from the seat of my car than a neighbor who buys my house out from under me when I get hurt at work and the capitalist machine starts to drive over me.

I don't understand why you'd have to pick. Those both sound fairly awesome and there's no reason why you can't have both happen to you.

[TrueMetis]

-Get rid of tasers.

Disagree the only problem with Tasers is the company that makes them sucks and didn't standardize them enough, you get to much variation in the voltage and amperage between tasers. When they work properly (which is the vast majority of time) they are a great alternative to most other option's. The solution is to test them more and have the manufacturers adhere to a higher standard.

[peterbound]

Is this tread a joke? Abolish the police force, what the hell is wrong with you people? We are a society of LAWS, those laws have to be enforce and the police are the front end of that process. Most of these guys are just regular joes making a buck. They are told to perform a function (search warrant) based on information received and they do it to the best of their ability. I'm sure that the situation that sparked the thread was only part of the whole story. I'm fairly sure that some other information was told to the issuing police force to have them go in loaded for bear.

As a fire fighter i cannot express my gratitude to the boys in blue. They have a thankless job, and one that is completely necessary in the world. Some of the most intelligent, compassionate, and resourceful people i've met were PD. Sure you get a douchbag in the mix, but that could be said for every workforce (and forum for that matter). They have been regulated and sued to the point that they are afriad to act as real cops and can only perform the functions that allow the bare minimum of real 'police work'. Again, it is a frustrating and thankless job, but one that is very, very much needed.

Couple of issue though that i find funny.

About the Background psych test. Have any of you guys ever even looked at the the typical hiring process for PD. It's no joke. Small towns maybe different, but big cities require extensive background, polygraph, teamwork, and stability tests just to get a job offer. It's not like you wake up one day and want to be a cop. It's a lengthy process. (Denver's breakdown: http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/269/documents/Pol%20Entry%20Flow%20Chart%20Update%204-16-09.pdf).

The idea that police are not held accountable every time there weapon is discharged (i said discharged, even if no one is shot at) is silly as well. Every time that weapon is fired while on duty a report is made. It's funny that there is so much hate towards PD yet the shit people bitch about they barely understand.

Is there police brutality, sure. Is there brutality against police.. hell ya. Imagine walking into a room where you know KNOW everyone hates you. No imagine walking into that room knowing everyone hates you and you suspect everyone is armed. That would put you on edge and effect your decisions. It makes me respect PD that much more that they have the balls to walk into such rooms without guns ablazin' .

They are an easy target for the insecure to take there hate out on. Have i been pissed at a cop for writing me a ticket..hell ya.. but i'll be damned if i wasn't speeding. Guy was doing his job.

And who said to legalize everything. Obviously you've never seen someone in the throes of a heroin OD, or the effect on a family when one of their own is addicted to Meth. That is the stupidest statement i've heard in quite some time. I don't know where the hell you live, but such action would cripple any civilized area. It'd be great to think that someone could go out and score an 8 ball and chill at home over the weekend and still be able to take care of the kids and go to work on monday, but that ain't how the game is played man.

[snake]

Is this tread a joke? Abolish the police force, what the hell is wrong with you people? We are a society of LAWS, those laws have to be enforce and the police are the front end of that process. Most of these guys are just regular joes making a buck. They are told to perform a function (search warrant) based on information received and they do it to the best of their ability. I'm sure that the situation that sparked the thread was only part of the whole story. I'm fairly sure that some other information was told to the issuing police force to have them go in loaded for bear.

As a fire fighter i cannot express my gratitude to the boys in blue. They have a thankless job, and one that is completely necessary in the world. Some of the most intelligent, compassionate, and resourceful people i've met were PD. Sure you get a douchbag in the mix, but that could be said for every workforce (and forum for that matter). They have been regulated and sued to the point that they are afriad to act as real cops and can only perform the functions that allow the bare minimum of real 'police work'. Again, it is a frustrating and thankless job, but one that is very, very much needed.

Couple of issue though that i find funny.

About the Background psych test. Have any of you guys ever even looked at the the typical hiring process for PD. It's no joke. Small towns maybe different, but big cities require extensive background, polygraph, teamwork, and stability tests just to get a job offer. It's not like you wake up one day and want to be a cop. It's a lengthy process. (Denver's breakdown: http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/269/documents/Pol%20Entry%20Flow%20Chart%20Update%204-16-09.pdf).

The idea that police are not held accountable every time there weapon is discharged (i said discharged, even if no one is shot at) is silly as well. Every time that weapon is fired while on duty a report is made. It's funny that there is so much hate towards PD yet the shit people bitch about they barely understand.

Is there police brutality, sure. Is there brutality against police.. hell ya. Imagine walking into a room where you know KNOW everyone hates you. No imagine walking into that room knowing everyone hates you and you suspect everyone is armed. That would put you on edge and effect your decisions. It makes me respect PD that much more that they have the balls to walk into such rooms without guns ablazin' .

They are an easy target for the insecure to take there hate out on. Have i been pissed at a cop for writing me a ticket..hell ya.. but i'll be damned if i wasn't speeding. Guy was doing his job.

And who said to legalize everything. Obviously you've never seen someone in the throes of a heroin OD, or the effect on a family when one of their own is addicted to Meth. That is the stupidest statement i've heard in quite some time. I don't know where the hell you live, but such action would cripple any civilized area. It'd be great to think that someone could go out and score an 8 ball and chill at home over the weekend and still be able to take care of the kids and go to work on monday, but that ain't how the game is played man.

+200.

[TrueMetis]

And who said to legalize everything. Obviously you've never seen someone in the throes of a heroin OD, or the effect on a family when one of their own is addicted to Meth. That is the stupidest statement i've heard in quite some time. I don't know where the hell you live, but such action would cripple any civilized area. It'd be great to think that someone could go out and score an 8 ball and chill at home over the weekend and still be able to take care of the kids and go to work on monday, but that ain't how the game is played man.

Meth is the only one where I don't know anyone who manages to use and still have a normal life and job.

[peterbound]

Meth is the only one where I don't know anyone who manages to use and still have a normal life and job.

Ha, to be honest, i got no beef with the hemp. But i'm not to sure that PCP, Horse, and the Cocaine lend themselves very well to a normal functioning adults life.

[peterbound]

Somehow this link got screwed.. let me try it again.

http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/269/documents/Pol%20Entry%20Flow%20Chart%20Update%204-16-09.pdf

[Old Nan]

Ha, to be honest, i got no beef with the hemp. But i'm not to sure that PCP, Horse, and the Cocaine lend themselves very well to a normal functioning adults life.

How's that your choice to make? "Civilization," as you put it, has no compelling interest in its own survival.

[TrueMetis]

Ha, to be honest, i got no beef with the hemp. But i'm not to sure that PCP, Horse, and the Cocaine lend themselves very well to a normal functioning adults life.

It depends on the person, if you've got an addictive personality coca-cola can be enough to screw you up. If you don't you can function pretty well and still do cocaine and other drugs occasionally. Though obviously most people aren't that lucky.

[peterbound]

How's that your choice to make? "Civilization," as you put it, has no compelling interest in its own survival.

That's an odd statement to make. Not really on topic, but i'll humor you. Anarchy can never truly exist. Some form of civilization will rise and attempt to make order. To me civilization has not only a compelling interest in its/our survival, it's done pretty well in several different forms throughout history.

This maybe a topic for another thread, but i'd like to hear your side of this, it sounds cynical enough to be interesting, or possibly very boring, one way or the other i'd still like to hear it.

[peterbound]

It depends on the person, if you've got an addictive personality coca-cola can be enough to screw you up. If you don't you can function pretty well and still do cocaine and other drugs occasionally. Though obviously most people aren't that lucky.

Well, like i said, i don't know how hardcore the drug problem is up there in BC, and i don't know your background with it. I can tell you though from personal experience, down here in AZ, CO, CA, it's not pretty.

Unless you are a rock star anything much harder than Cannabis Sativa ain't going to fit into your professional life very well.

[Old Nan]

I didn't say I favor anarchy, and I didn't say there is no self-interest from many parties, from persons to nations, in ensuring stability. That doesn't make the laws kings or despots or in our case bankers create to protect their continued prosperity ethically binding, and when the law in question regulates something as personal as (basically) the type of food an individual chooses to eat I'm not sure any argument in their favor that isn't prima facie foolish can be made.

As to your later post, I'd suggest that a system of professions in which a drug addict cannot survive is most certainly not a system that deserves to survive itself. We got by for thousands of years with basically everyone drinking themselves under the table on a nightly if not daily basis, and life, except for the lack of running water, was good. What's changed?

[TrueMetis]

Well, like i said, i don't know how hardcore the drug problem is up there in BC, and i don't know your background with it. I can tell you though from personal experience, down here in AZ, CO, CA, it's not pretty.

Unless you are a rock star anything much harder than Cannabis Sativa ain't going to fit into your professional life very well.

Some places it's pretty bad, other places you can't even tell. The interesting thing to me is the job's of the people who do these drugs roofers, framers, one's a security gaurd at a hospital, etc. Doesn't cause them any problems. The only people who I know are bad off because of the drugs were idiots before the drugs and will be idiots after. Maybe it's something in the water.

[peterbound]

I didn't say I favor anarchy, and I didn't say there is no self-interest from many parties, from persons to nations, in ensuring stability. That doesn't make the laws kings or despots or in our case bankers create to protect their continued prosperity ethically binding, and when the law in question regulates something as personal as (basically) the type of food an individual chooses to eat I'm not sure any argument in their favor that isn't prima facie foolish can be made.

As to your later post, I'd suggest that a system of professions in which a drug addict cannot survive is most certainly not a system that deserves to survive itself. We got by for thousands of years with basically everyone drinking themselves under the table on a nightly if not daily basis, and life, except for the lack of running water, was good. What's changed?

I would argue the advancement of the technology and the possibility of social mobility have changed. Sure the plebs could go get shit faced and work the farms every day with little or no problem (mind you, a hangover is much, much more mild then a come down). Knowing full well that all they had in life was the booze and the farm, i could see that side of the argument. We now however require people to get up, drive to work (not easy to do drunk, tripping the light fantastic, coming down), manipulate complex machinery/devices to perform a task. We also have the ability to move up in life now. With hard work and the possibility of education we can succeed by following the rules. This was never a possibility in the past (waaayyyy past). These things become more difficult when mixed with heavy/hard drugs.

Again, don't know your background, but the fact that you are arguing the merits of illegal drugs is silly to me. Have you seen someone high on Heroin? Have you had to deal with a tweeker? Have you had to cut out a drunk driver? I'm not trying to be dramatic, but i have. These behaviors are not conducive to a well running society. On this point you and i will have to disagree.

[Old Nan]

I do opioid analgesics occasionally, in the privacy of my own home. I don't drink alcohol or smoke pot, because they smell terrible. I don't do uppers. And I have absolutely no interest in performing complex tasks, upward mobility, hard work, or any more education. I'm white trash and proud of it.

[Stego]

Is this tread a joke? Abolish the police force, what the hell is wrong with you people? We are a society of LAWS, those laws have to be enforce and the police are the front end of that process. Most of these guys are just regular joes making a buck. They are told to perform a function (search warrant) based on information received and they do it to the best of their ability. I'm sure that the situation that sparked the thread was only part of the whole story. I'm fairly sure that some other information was told to the issuing police force to have them go in loaded for bear.

As a fire fighter i cannot express my gratitude to the boys in blue. They have a thankless job, and one that is completely necessary in the world. Some of the most intelligent, compassionate, and resourceful people i've met were PD. Sure you get a douchbag in the mix, but that could be said for every workforce (and forum for that matter). They have been regulated and sued to the point that they are afriad to act as real cops and can only perform the functions that allow the bare minimum of real 'police work'. Again, it is a frustrating and thankless job, but one that is very, very much needed.

Couple of issue though that i find funny.

About the Background psych test. Have any of you guys ever even looked at the the typical hiring process for PD. It's no joke. Small towns maybe different, but big cities require extensive background, polygraph, teamwork, and stability tests just to get a job offer. It's not like you wake up one day and want to be a cop. It's a lengthy process. (Denver's breakdown: http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/269/documents/Pol%20Entry%20Flow%20Chart%20Update%204-16-09.pdf).

The idea that police are not held accountable every time there weapon is discharged (i said discharged, even if no one is shot at) is silly as well. Every time that weapon is fired while on duty a report is made. It's funny that there is so much hate towards PD yet the shit people bitch about they barely understand.

Is there police brutality, sure. Is there brutality against police.. hell ya. Imagine walking into a room where you know KNOW everyone hates you. No imagine walking into that room knowing everyone hates you and you suspect everyone is armed. That would put you on edge and effect your decisions. It makes me respect PD that much more that they have the balls to walk into such rooms without guns ablazin' .

They are an easy target for the insecure to take there hate out on. Have i been pissed at a cop for writing me a ticket..hell ya.. but i'll be damned if i wasn't speeding. Guy was doing his job.

And who said to legalize everything. Obviously you've never seen someone in the throes of a heroin OD, or the effect on a family when one of their own is addicted to Meth. That is the stupidest statement i've heard in quite some time. I don't know where the hell you live, but such action would cripple any civilized area. It'd be great to think that someone could go out and score an 8 ball and chill at home over the weekend and still be able to take care of the kids and go to work on monday, but that ain't how the game is played man.

You're not very good at reading comprehension. You're like a Fox News talking head -- arguing against things that were never said.

-No one said get rid of cops. Even the most vocal of the cop-haters.

-Those standards you list for cops are not stringent. At all.

-Cops are not held accountable every time they discharge. They write a report that no one reads and it goes in a drawer. It is not for quality control of officers, but for legal defense when the injured parties try to get recompense.

-When you got that ticket, you lacked the understanding that you were funding the city with a new form of tax. I don't speed. I HATE most drivers. I think most folks have no clue how dangerous motor vehicles are, and drive unsafe. But tickets do not stop bad behavior. I bet you still speed.

-Legalizing a fucking plant with less downside than alcohol or tobacco is not the same as legalizing crack and meth. Legalizing steroids would not hurt the populace in any way. (See: Most of the world.)

I like baseball, so why not argue why volleyball is a bad sport?

[King Nobody]

Ha, to be honest, i got no beef with the hemp. But i'm not to sure that PCP, Horse, and the Cocaine lend themselves very well to a normal functioning adults life.

And being in prison or even being an ex convict does lend itself to having a normal functioning life? All I gathered from your posts is that you've seen people addicted to drugs before, and that they've disgusted you because they don't fit into your perfect model of society. If a drug addict has ever harmed you in any way then they should be punished for whatever they did to you, but they shouldn't be punished just because you, or anyone else doesn't like what they put in their body.

[The Stranger]

I like country sheriffs in rural areas, precisely because I know, and they know, and everyone in the area knows, that no one is impressed by the fact they have a revolver. they have no Weberian monopoly on violence, which means that that they are forces to actually act as arbiter most of the time.

not so in the cities. I have never lived in a place with more than 50,000 where I've thought that the majority of the police force was anything less than mercurial and dangerous. I'm lucky because I'm white and well-mannered--aka I carry myself like someone who grew up in a suburb. I have latino friends in Portland, OR, likely the most liberal large city in the country, who say they wouldn't risk being downtown after dark thanks to the way cops treat minorities.

On the first page of the thread I mentioned a run-in my GF and I had with some wealthy suburbanite Michigan police. She said she wouldn't have dared do something similar in her native Chicago, because she would've been beaten and taken in with the kid she helped get off the hook.

this is the point: AMERICAN POLICE HAVE CULTIVATED AN AURA OF FEAR. fear of punishment, fear of pain, fear of death. no organization which deliberately builds up the rep of being able to kill citizens of its own society is worth a goddamned thing, or worth defending a single inch.

I've met good people who are police officers. But I've met a helluva lot more Cops.