[BOOK SPOILERS] Nudity and Sexuality in HBO's GoT

[Bronn Stone]

I guess that's what bugs me, Bronn; Rome was clearly at times gratuitous just for the sake of having random hot people naked. No rhyme to it, no reason, just fan service. I don't want AGOT to be comparable to Rome in that respect. I don't want it to go all spartacus either.

I'm definitely on board with wanting to avoid Spartacus comparison. That show is a cartoon (a fun cartoon, but a cartoon nonetheless). But I think Rome handled the balance reasonably well. I have to admit to not completely understanding the mindset of the generation younger than me. To me a movie or television show can be thoroughly adult in nature AND earn a G rating. But I also recognize the modern media environment where the G rating is a death sentence for any viewers over the age of nine (and many younger).

Even Shakespeare had to throw an occasional bone to the Groundlings.

[Kalbear]

Yes, just "fan service," or trying to portray a different culture with different attitudes toward sex and nudity.

Oh please. National Geographic portrays a different culture with different attitudes towards sex and nudity. Long, slow panning shots of full-frontal hot people does not; it uses the camera to showcase and titillate. If they wanted to show cultural differences they wouldn't focus on tits and ass or have it panned down to.

If you wanted to show Rome being fine towards nudity, why were only really attractive people naked? Surely there were fat romans of both sexes that got naked, right?

For the most part I think the first ep did this well. I thought the bare-breasted Dothraki worked, mostly; it wasn't super hot or focused on, it just was happening. I thought the whorehouse was close to being bad but mostly worked; the poses were not unnatural to showcase things. But Dany's bath scene was pretty much 'here's a hot gal, go for it'.

[reiver]

You are totally nailing what I have been trying to say. :bowdown:

I felt the same when i read your posts. I'm rather relieved to see other people coming at this from the same direction.

Re the violence and gore aspect: As Prince of Dinas Emrys said it's about how it's handled. For me the sex scenes we've got correspond to something like having Jamie fight 15 men at once with blood and guts flying everywhere just to show how awesome he is and get some cheap thrills. That wouldn't sit right in the tone of the show and the sex scenes don't either imo. The gore we did have may have been slightly ott but at the same time we didn't really have any push ins or lingering shots.

Edit: I shouldn't have said sex scenes as they weren't too bad. The Brothel scene and the Dany/Viserys scenes were the ones i mean with a bit of the Dothraki wedding.

Edit x2: The nudity in Deadwood is a good example of not just having hot women naked. Nudity was spread around the cast and was rarely appealing given the dirtiness of the characters and for the most part their unattractiveness.

[Jack Sparrow]

Oh please. National Geographic portrays a different culture with different attitudes towards sex and nudity. Long, slow panning shots of full-frontal hot people does not; it uses the camera to showcase and titillate. If they wanted to show cultural differences they wouldn't focus on tits and ass or have it panned down to.

If you wanted to show Rome being fine towards nudity, why were only really attractive people naked? Surely there were fat romans of both sexes that got naked, right?

You just recently discovered TV and movies? People there are prettier than their real-life counterparts. I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of who all got naked on 'Rome', but I thought Titus Pullo did, for example. My feeling of the nudity on the show, and the crass language was that they were illustrating a pre-Christian society that was more animal, and didn't have the same feelings toward bodily processes. I don't understand some people think all sex and nudity is to "titillate," or how that is somehow objectionable. I've seen the same comments toward network shows like 'Firefly', and pretty much every pay cable show.

For the most part I think the first ep did this well. I thought the bare-breasted Dothraki worked, mostly; it wasn't super hot or focused on, it just was happening. I thought the whorehouse was close to being bad but mostly worked; the poses were not unnatural to showcase things. But Dany's bath scene was pretty much 'here's a hot gal, go for it'.

I think they probably had a reason for showing Dany like that, and it was at least partially about her subservient status, the incestuousness of the Targaryens, and her value being defined by her being a young, healthy girl usable for sex/reproduction. Also, some people like to see attractive people naked; that can be part of a show's entertainment. Yes, I know, for millionth fucking time, "it's only okay if it adds to the story, or is organic," or whatever ill-defined adjective that people who hate these images use. There are plenty of people who hate the sex in the books and think it's all gratuitous, too.

[Kat]

Honestly, I wouldn't have pegged the Dany Takes a Bath scene as lurid or unnecessary nudity in the context of HBO. How else are you supposed to take a bath?

The relevant part was that she walked in even though the water was scalding, the relevance of which we'll hopefully see later on.

The only scene that really tipped my 'sexed up for HBO' trigger was the Tyrion in a brothel scene, as noted by many others. I anticipate HBO and the producers making the most they can of every scene in a brothel, though, because there are many of them, and it's HBO.

I think a lot of it just stood out more because it's a lot easier to ignore nudity and sex when it's printed even non-graphically, compared to confronting the screen representation of it.

[Bronn Stone]

I remember reading an interview with Kathy Bates when a role which I won't spoil (though it was long ago) required her to do a nude scene. She was more than a little bit reluctant, mostly because she's not the shape modern audiences associate with classic beauty. I suspect the absence of naked looking 'normal-level-of-attractiveness' people is as much a function of the actors as the producers. I'd assume Tyrion is garbed in the Northern Brothel scene because Dinklage has a 'no-dinky' clause in his contract.

Though I doubt the suits at HBO were on set trying to persuade Peter otherwise.

[CelticCail]

The scene with Tyrion was hilarious and awesome. Seeing Dany's body, especially the dynamic between her and Viserys was also totally cool with me. I do completely agree that the rape scene at the end was total crap and nothing like the book. It pissed me off.

[Mandurang]

That's not precisely true or reasonable. We don't get hot descriptions of gay sex, but we get plenty of lesbian action. We get things like 'fat pink mast' or pretty deep descriptions of Dany and Drogo, or Jon and Ygritte. If you were correct you'd have things like "And then Tyrion went down on Shae and then they had sex".

We don't get that. We do get some pretty graphic, lurid depictions of it, and saying otherwise is like saying that GRRM doesn't like food recipes.

I disagree as well with this. I find the sexual descriptions add a great deal to the novels - perhaps inadvertently, you hit the mark when you wrote "pretty deep". The scenes in the TV adaptation did seem off to me, but the reason for that was because there is a discrepancy between the novel and the series in those depictions. It would be pretty hard to have all of them unchanged, but being faithful to the spirit of them would have done the trick, I feel.

[Prince of Dinas Emrys]

I think they probably had a reason for showing Dany like that, and it was at least partially about her subservient status, the incestuousness of the Targaryens, and her value being defined by her being a young, healthy girl usable for sex/reproduction. Also, some people like to see attractive people naked; that can be part of a show's entertainment. Yes, I know, for millionth fucking time, "it's only okay if it adds to the story, or is organic," or whatever ill-defined adjective that people who hate these images use. There are plenty of people who hate the sex in the books and think it's all gratuitous, too.

You might have a fair point here. In a way the producers might be inviting us, the audience, to experience the same degree of sexual domination and voyeuristic lechery that Viserys is imposing on his sister. I'm prepared to re-examine the episode with that perspective in mind.

But I also want to be clear that I don't "hate these images". I am pro-sex, pro-nudity, pro-pornography, pro-masturbation, pro-healthy-attitudes-toward-bodily-processes. I only want the show to depict these things the way it is in the book(s), which is casual and natural.

I'm not getting that from the first episode; I'm getting calculated, cynical, staged and softcore-titillating. If you disagree, fine, but please don't mischaracterize my position.

[Kalbear]

You just recently discovered TV and movies? People there are prettier than their real-life counterparts. I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of who all got naked on 'Rome', but I thought Titus Pullo did, for example. My feeling of the nudity on the show, and the crass language was that they were illustrating a pre-Christian society that was more animal, and didn't have the same feelings toward bodily processes. I don't understand some people think all sex and nudity is to "titillate," or how that is somehow objectionable. I've seen the same comments toward network shows like 'Firefly', and pretty much every pay cable show.

Titus Pullo was a hot guy. I didn't say 'attractive women', I said 'attractive people'. Deadwood is a GREAT counterexample where the nudity was often not particularly attractive at all but it was certainly there. You can have nudity without having it be beautiful, flawless-skinned perfectly proportioned people.

All nudity isn't there to titillate. Lingering shots of tits and ass and framing designed to showcase said tits and ass ARE. Again, Dany's rape? not titillation. Random Dothraki getting it on? Not really titillation. Dany getting examined by Viserys? not titillation. Long, lingering shots of Dany's ass and tits as she just stands there or lowers herself into the bathtub? Titillation.

I think they probably had a reason for showing Dany like that, and it was at least partially about her subservient status, the incestuousness of the Targaryens, and her value being defined by her being a young, healthy girl usable for sex/reproduction. Also, some people like to see attractive people naked; that can be part of a show's entertainment. Yes, I know, for millionth fucking time, "it's only okay if it adds to the story, or is organic," or whatever ill-defined adjective that people who hate these images use. There are plenty of people who hate the sex in the books and think it's all gratuitous, too.

Seeing attractive people naked is fine, I guess, but I'd rather not have AGOT be turned into fantasy porn. Or porn fantasy. Whatever. I don't have a problem with them showing fucking, or showing people naked; I thought the whorehouse scene was fine in that regard because no one was standing in weird positions or trying purposely to show anything off. Dany's scene though...just felt like the directorial advice was 'stand there and make her look hot'.

There are ways to have nudity without making nudity the focus of the shot. The Dothraki wedding, the whorehouse - I didn't think nudity was the main thing there. Dany's rape wasn't that way either. Dany's bathing scene really seemed that way to me, especially after Viserys left.

I don't hate nudity any more than you have sex with strawmen. But I do dislike nudity for the sake of getting people to watch the show cause they think they can get some titties. AGOT should be past that, and I really hope that we don't get a ton of random gratuitous nudity in the place of actual plot development.

[Xenophon]

I only want the show to depict these things the way it is in the book(s), which is casual and natural.

I'm not getting that from the first episode; I'm getting calculated, cynical, staged and softcore-titillating.

Aye. I'm guessing we aren't going to get a long lingering shot of Dany's ass all covered in nasty saddle-sores next episode.

In fact, judging from the preview it seems like we're instead going to get lots of hot and heavy lesbian scenes instead.

[Jack Sparrow]

Titus Pullo was a hot guy. I didn't say 'attractive women', I said 'attractive people'. Deadwood is a GREAT counterexample where the nudity was often not particularly attractive at all but it was certainly there. You can have nudity without having it be beautiful, flawless-skinned perfectly proportioned people.

You're actually going to imply they showed no naked people who were not "beautiful, flawless-skinned, perfectly proportioned" in the same paragraph you admit Pullo got naked? I'm not saying he's unattractive necessarily, but he's not someone I would think of as pin up material. I thought I remembered the withered king of the Gauls getting stripped naked, too.

I don't hate nudity any more than you have sex with strawmen. But I do dislike nudity for the sake of getting people to watch the show cause they think they can get some titties. AGOT should be past that, and I really hope that we don't get a ton of random gratuitous nudity in the place of actual plot development.

I don't know why people so often seem to think nudity or sex equals ratings. If they do, I think they'd better keep them in, then, cause the show could use the help. And people can actually be naked while stuff happens, so I don't think they'll need to sacrifice too many plot points, though I do recall Jason Mamoa saying he spent a lot of his time on set naked. There goes the dragons, I suppose.

[Kalbear]

You're actually going to imply they showed no naked people who were not "beautiful, flawless-skinned, perfectly proportioned" in the same paragraph you admit Pullo got naked? I'm not saying he's unattractive necessarily, but he's not someone I would think of as pin up material. I thought I remembered the withered king of the Gauls getting stripped naked, too.

Ask the ladies whether they liked Titus Pullo naked. They certainly seemed all aflutter at the time.

So yes, I'd say that. He's certainly well built, he's not fat, he's not old, etc.

I don't know why people so often seem to think nudity or sex equals ratings. If they do, I think they'd better keep them in, then, cause the show could use the help. And people can actually be naked while stuff happens, so I don't think they'll need to sacrifice too many plot points, though I do recall Jason Mamoa saying he spent a lot of his time on set naked. There goes the dragons, I suppose.

Are you really that willfully naive?

First off: the show did great, ratings wise. It doesn't need any help. If anything, the biggest universal critique of the show was that it had too much gratuitous nudity. Well, that and no one used anyone's name.

I guess I'll ask this then if you don't get why nudity and sex means ratings - why do you care if they're in the show or not? If they do the bare minimum (heh) of showing nudity and sex (and they've already altered scenes to have less nudity and less sex, so they can do less), would that disappoint you?

Will you be unhappy if they don't show Tyrion and Shae fucking? How about Jon and Ygritte? How about Renly and Loras? More Dany and Drogo? Of those, what are really essential to the plot? How often do we need to see Dany's breasts to prove a point about her insecurity, and when she comes into her own power do we need to see them any more?

For me, I think they need to show things like Jon & Ygritte. I think they need to show at least a bit of Tyrion and Shae if only to emphasize how in love Tyrion is with Shae. I think showing Dany naked would be fine, though aside from her first getting on top of Drogo I'm not sure it's really needed a whole lot. Apart from that, I don't really need to see a ton and wouldn't miss it if it were gone. I wouldn't mind more, but if they spend a bunch of time ogling people it'll bug.

[WaitingforWylla]

A friend pointed this out, I totally missed it: Jaime hiring whores for Tyrion in the show is... not exactly an act without baggage, given Tyrion's early romantic history.

Agreed - I think the 'extra' whores were there to plant the idea, from the beginning, that Jaime is involved in Tyrion's whoring, and make it plausible to us that he is so because he arranged Tysha.

I wondered if the whore Tyrion is with at the beginning is actually Kyra from the books - that would mitigate the seeming out-of-nowhereness of the scene, as she'd be a character we see again.

[Tyrion Lannister]

There are ways to have nudity without making nudity the focus of the shot. The Dothraki wedding, the whorehouse - I didn't think nudity was the main thing there. Dany's rape wasn't that way either. Dany's bathing scene really seemed that way to me, especially after Viserys left.

How would you have shot her bathing scene, then? I think it was pretty important for Viserys to examine her, naked, as he was about to basically sell her body off. It was also important to see her walk slowly into the bath, naked, despite the water being too hot. Those are moments that provided important characterization, and her nudity and status as an attractive female ties directly into the scene. Would you rather they have purposefully kept her out of focus and blurry, or only showed her butt for a few seconds before panning out during her slow walk into the bath? To me, that would have felt artificial and phony.

[Jack Sparrow]

Ask the ladies whether they liked Titus Pullo naked. They certainly seemed all aflutter at the time.

So yes, I'd say that. He's certainly well built, he's not fat, he's not old, etc.

I think you're drawing back at bit from "flawless" here. And I thought Pullo was a little lumpy.

Are you really that willfully naive?

I guess I don't really see the evidence of nudity and ratings; the lack of it doesn't seem to hurt the network shows.

First off: the show did great, ratings wise. It doesn't need any help.

I'd hardly say it did great, and it's apparently already getting the help. Without that, I assume the ratings would be, what, half what they were?

If anything, the biggest universal critique of the show was that it had too much gratuitous nudity. Well, that and no one used anyone's name.

So, the nudity actually hurt the ratings? How does this tie in with my naivete?

I guess I'll ask this then if you don't get why nudity and sex means ratings - why do you care if they're in the show or not?

I like nudity. There's a caustic quality to it, how it makes people uncomfortable in our society. I liked the brazenness of it in 'Spartacus', like it went so far it was just past the point of anybody even caring.

If they do the bare minimum (heh) of showing nudity and sex (and they've already altered scenes to have less nudity and less sex, so they can do less), would that disappoint you?

Maybe; I don't know. I have a wide range of what I'd consider acceptable. I'd prefer they threw it in because it creates the aesthetic that I guess I want with the show. But I don't think I'd have too much problem if nobody ever got naked. It doesn't have to be any one way.

Will you be unhappy if they don't show Tyrion and Shae fucking? How about Jon and Ygritte? How about Renly and Loras? More Dany and Drogo? Of those, what are really essential to the plot? How often do we need to see Dany's breasts to prove a point about her insecurity, and when she comes into her own power do we need to see them any more?

I want to see Renly and Loras go at it. I'd like to see Jon go down on Ygritte, I suppose, since I really liked that detail in the book, but I don't know how well that would work onscreen. I don't know that any of the sex is essential to the plot, as far as showing naked people thrusting, or anything like that. They can just imply it, of course.

[Valmy]

It is HBO so I expect the needless nudity and sexploitation. You knew it was going to be there once we found out it was going to be on HBO. A small price to pay if it bugs you.

[AquariumDrinker]

The answers to the original question is that the sexuality/nudity is for both the needs of the scene with a bit extra for the sex appeal. Just like the violence(seriously, the intestines were just there to be over the top).

That is the problem with commercial television, they try to appeal to everyone. Thankfully for me, I wasn't bothered.

[The Anti-Targ]

I don't object to graphic violence (which is why I haven't created a thread about it or commented on it), and I don't object to graphic sexuality. You're entirely missing the nuance of my position because you think I'm knee-jerk reacting to the amount of sex and nudity in the show.

I'm not. It's the staged, calculated and softcore-porn feel of the sex and nudity that I object to. Show sex and nudity! I'm all for it. But do it in a way that feels natural and organic and human, as IMO it is presented in the book(s).

If you can't see the distinction I'm making, fine: you're entitled to your viewpoint. Just please don't misconstrue or mischaracterize my own viewpoint in the process.

I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. I personally didn't get any kind of softcore, playboy centrefold vibe from any of the nude/sex scenes. I thought they all fit within the context of the scenes and the overall tenor of the series.

However clearly there is a danger here that the show will garner a certain reputation which detracts from the drama. This thread wouldn't exist if it were otherwise. So for that reason I hope they throw in the odd ugly/old/deformed bit of nudity just to counter the luridity accusations. Would have been good for Catelyn and Ned to at least be topless and obviously post coital for that reason. Perhaps they can have a few of the not so adonis looking black brothers show some arse. Actually I think they really ought to bring home the cruelty that is making boys Eunuchs by showing Varys in all his full frontal inglory. People probably think being an Eunuch is only about having the balls chopped off.

[Kalbear]

How would you have shot her bathing scene, then? I think it was pretty important for Viserys to examine her, naked, as he was about to basically sell her body off. It was also important to see her walk slowly into the bath, naked, despite the water being too hot. Those are moments that provided important characterization, and her nudity and status as an attractive female ties directly into the scene. Would you rather they have purposefully kept her out of focus and blurry, or only showed her butt for a few seconds before panning out during her slow walk into the bath? To me, that would have felt artificial and phony.

You show her getting undressed and the full shot of her while Viserys examines her. That part's very important as it's squicky as all hell. The focus on him grabbing her breast is similarly important.

Next cut can be of him walking away with her from the waist up. No ass shot needed.

Next shot can be of her turning to the bath, waist down.

Next shot is from the front, shoulder high, stepping into the bath. Or from a crane shot angled so we don't see a lot.

Alternately, if you want the nudity but don't want to focus on it:

Long shot of Viserys walking away. Dany's still in frame but to the left and not in center of frame. Focus is on Viserys, not Dany. Then tight focus of him.

Next is her getting into the bath, and keep the long shots and wide shots. No frontal ones, and no slow, deliberate walking. Just having her get into the bath. If anything, linger when she's in the tub and show how at peace she is in the heat.

Ultimately the focus on her nudity is important when Viserys is examining her. After that the focus is on her and the bath; the nudity doesn't really matter. Her being naked there is fine, mind you, but you don't need her to be front and center and taking up most of the screen. The long shot from behind where she turns around and gets into the tub is a good example of this; the example where they keep her waist high as she lowers herself in is not.

I guess I don't really see the evidence of nudity and ratings; the lack of it doesn't seem to hurt the network shows

Apples to oranges. HBO has put these things in for a reason and it's worked fairly well for them. Spartacus certainly got good ratings for doing basically nothing but T&A and gore.

So, the nudity actually hurt the ratings? How does this tie in with my naivete?

It'll get some people but turn off others. Most likely, it'll enforce to many the stigma of fantasy being a boys club only thing and get said boys club to tune in. It'll help ratings but hurt critical acclaim.

And since ratings don't matter to HBO nearly as much as critical acclaim does, that's a bad thing.

I like nudity. There's a caustic quality to it, how it makes people uncomfortable in our society. I liked the brazenness of it in 'Spartacus', like it went so far it was just past the point of anybody even caring.

I like nudity too, but I also like lightsabers. Both have a time and place in a story. Mostly, I don't like my favorite book series turning into something cheap and tawdry. It has fucking, and it has nudity, and that's awesome. It doesn't need to be porn.

Another reason this matters is that it affects the quality of the cast they can get to do roles, and it affects the budget (because many actors charge more per nude scene).

I do actually hope they show Renly and Loras doing more than the implied stuff GRRM stated. He said he didn't have a problem with them being gay but he couldn't write a male sex scene for a damn; I suspect that'd make a lot of people happy if they put that in there.