Eddard’s mother, aka ‘Lady Stark’

[Alia of the knife]

Hmmm... Elaborate, please!

(Sorry, came in late from a wine bar, and didn't think I could think it through) :0

First, let me separate the two theories.

Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjens unknown mom may have been a mystery woman, (though highborn in whatever capacity), from the North, even beyond the wall.

She could have been a sacred child of the Ancients, and with her daughter being taken by a Targ., a man whose culture, traditions, (he's a product of incest himself), etc, would be abhorrent to the old gods, that could have been the event that jump-started the apocolyptic event.

Hence, Rhaegar who thought he was saving the world, (good and noble intentions), by taking Lyanna, actually started everything.

Just my theory only.

(Also, given Martins age, and he being influenced by many factors, he could be giving a nod to the old "Wolfman" stories, where the Father is a nobleman, but the mother is the long-dead gypsy woman with mysterious powers that may have imbued the offspring with those powers). :)

But, in Westeros, it is "warging" and the supernatural qualities that some of the Starks seem to really have.

Remember the story everyone told of even the beautiful Sansa turning into a wolf and escaping KL after Joffreys death?

My husband surmises that "it is known" as a dark secret that the Starks may have those abilities, and a reason why the Targs. left them largely to themselves in the North. Afterall, who were they to quibble? They had dragons, the Starks turned into beasts.

As for the pregnant woman, it really is hard to say who she could be, but it seems that in the past that some of the Targs. ranged far and wide, and it seems that the past, (i.e. Bloodraven and Co.), is starting to play a signifigant role now, so again, maybe Lyanna is not the only Stark woman to capture the desire of a Targ.

Maybe the Starks practiced their own back-handed snobbery, and did not want to mix with the likes of the dragons. :drunk:

Again, just throwing my two cents into the mix.

[bianca]

ADWD, one of Dany's chapters: All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends.

We know Duncan was eldest and Jaehaerys was a younger son; the as-yet-unnamed other son may be his second or third son. I want to know who they and Aegon married, but I reckon it'll be daughters of smaller houses. If there was a Stark connection, it would have been alluded to by now.

I wonder if one of them was a daughter of House Plumm, hence Brown Ben's "two drops" of dragon blood. (One of them is from the well-endowed Ossifer.)

I'm wondering if maybe the identity of the wife of Aegon V's unnamed son was kept a secret for matters of security, given all the trouble caused by the Duncan/Jenny pairing and the Jaehaerys/unnamed-girl-of-unkown-House pairing.

On the other hand, Aegon V's own wife's identity is yet unrevealed in the books, and we do know the next Dunk & Egg story is going to be called The She-Wolves of Winterfell. It is not impossible that he himself married a northern girl or even a Stark.

Even though secret Targ theories are kinda getting old, there aren't that many actual secret Targs in the books so far (Aegon VI is the only one I can think of, and he is probably a fake). So I guess this could turn out to be true.

[kissdbyfire]

(Sorry, came in late from a wine bar, and didn't think I could think it through) :0

First, let me separate the two theories.

Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjens unknown mom may have been a mystery woman, (though highborn in whatever capacity), from the North, even beyond the wall.

She could have been a sacred child of the Ancients, and with her daughter being taken by a Targ., a man whose culture, traditions, (he's a product of incest himself), etc, would be abhorrent to the old gods, that could have been the event that jump-started the apocolyptic event.

Hence, Rhaegar who thought he was saving the world, (good and noble intentions), by taking Lyanna, actually started everything.

Just my theory only.

(Also, given Martins age, and he being influenced by many factors, he could be giving a nod to the old "Wolfman" stories, where the Father is a nobleman, but the mother is the long-dead gypsy woman with mysterious powers that may have imbued the offspring with those powers). :)

But, in Westeros, it is "warging" and the supernatural qualities that some of the Starks seem to really have.

Remember the story everyone told of even the beautiful Sansa turning into a wolf and escaping KL after Joffreys death?

My husband surmises that "it is known" as a dark secret that the Starks may have those abilities, and a reason why the Targs. left them largely to themselves in the North. Afterall, who were they to quibble? They had dragons, the Starks turned into beasts.

As for the pregnant woman, it really is hard to say who she could be, but it seems that in the past that some of the Targs. ranged far and wide, and it seems that the past, (i.e. Bloodraven and Co.), is starting to play a signifigant role now, so again, maybe Lyanna is not the only Stark woman to capture the desire of a Targ.

Maybe the Starks practiced their own back-handed snobbery, and did not want to mix with the likes of the dragons. :drunk:

Again, just throwing my two cents into the mix.

Oh, I really like this! I'll have to organise my thoughts a bit, but one thing that kind of jumped from the screen as I read your post was, if *it is known* - about the Starks having those abilities, maybe the Targs thought a Stark + Targ child would be able to warg and would be blood of the dragon. Handy for when someone managed to hatch one or three of those dragons' eggs. Are we somehow back to R+L=J? LOL

Don't know if this makes sense, I'm running out the door, late. Will think more.

[Glyn Tarvoke]

Yes, I totally agree. I never got the impression that the northern clans are ‘unruly’ like the Vale tribes. The Vale tribes more or less hate the lords/noble houses as they feel robbed of their own lands in a way. The northern clans on the other hand are extremely loyal and devoted to the Starks. I don’t remember this, are there any Liddles among the northern clans when rally to Stannis in ADwD? Because they know Bran is alive, right?

I wonder...

The first born Liddle son (who should be the heir) is Big Liddle of the NW, a ranger with a booming voice.

The LIddles do rally to Stannis. "Middle" Liddle is the northman who beats down Asha Greyjoy and later comes to her and apologizes for using profane language in battle.

Good question. Maybe the Liddle who met with Bran kept his word to keep the meeting secret, though I'd think he'd tell the clan chief about the meeting, as well as the promise to keep the meeting secret.

The Liddles might still support Stannis to get rid of the squids and save the Stark child from Ramsay Bolton.

Sounds from interviews like GRMM wrote the Battle in the Snow (Northman) and the Battle of Fire (Meeren and dragons) already so maybe we'll know more about this little mystery in 3-5 years.

[Alia of the knife]

Oh, I really like this! I'll have to organise my thoughts a bit, but one thing that kind of jumped from the screen as I read your post was, if *it is known* - about the Starks having those abilities, maybe the Targs thought a Stark + Targ child would be able to warg and would be blood of the dragon. Handy for when someone managed to hatch one or three of those dragons' eggs. Are we somehow back to R+L=J? LOL

Don't know if this makes sense, I'm running out the door, late. Will think more.

Thats what I think as well, because these supernatural qualities don't seem to apply to the other Houses, and the Targaryens also controlled their dragons through sorcery, which none of the current Targs. have any knowledge of- even Dany doesn't seem entirely in control of her dragons beyond having hand raised them from babies.

So, in the absence of the old control factors, the ability to literally get inside their heads would be an easy fix. :drunk:

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

It's kind of of sad to think that Lady Stark was never mentioned in the books. We know some stuff about Rickard, but what about his wife? We don't even know what house she came from or how she died.

Is she even buried in the Stark crypts? Or somewhere else??

I feel sad just thinking about this.

[Tyrionthebest]

It's kind of of sad to think that Lady Stark was never mentioned in the books. We know some stuff about Rickard, but what about his wife? We don't even know what house she came from or how she died.

Is she even buried in the Stark crypts? Or somewhere else??

I feel sad just thinking about this.

That's because not every person in the books has to be important . Look for Martin's answer in of the SSM to see how much he cares .

[Winterfell is Burning]

It just seems unrealistic Ned never thinks about his mother, not even once.

But I think the real reason GRRM didn't bothered to give us much information about her was:

1) Because the eldest generation all married people from minor houses (Steffon Baratheon with an Estermont, Hoster Tully with a Whent) or married for love with people that brought no political advantage for their marriages (Doran with a foreign woman, Tywin with his cousin). Mace Tyrell is the exception, marrying the daughter or granddaughter of a very powerful bannerman.

The reason for this was obviously to make it easier for the alliances during Robert's Rebellion and later in the War of the 5 Kings- wouldn't make sense for the Tyrells to support Aerys if Robert's mother was a Tyrell herself, for example.

2) To give another reason to allow Robb to choose Roose Bolton to control most of his army. If his grandmother was, say, a Tallhart or a Manderly, wouldn't make sense for him to put one of his granduncles or cousins in charge instead.

I don't think he'll reveal further information about her.

[kissdbyfire]

That's because not every person in the books has to be important . Look for Martin's answer in of the SSM to see how much he cares .

Are you referring to 'She is lady Stark', or to something else? I couldn't find it in the SSM.

[Errant Bard]

Are you referring to 'She is lady Stark', or to something else? I couldn't find it in the SSM.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1035

4. Who was Ned's mother and what happened to her?

Lady Stark. She died.

[Été]

Considering the fractal levels of detail in this series, I'd find it hard to believe if GRRM hasn't given Ned's mother a backstory. Instead of saying, "Her name was Lyanna Hornwood and she died of a fever when Ned was young," or the like, he completely evades the question.

[Tyrionthebest]

Considering the fractal levels of detail in this series, I'd find it hard to believe if GRRM hasn't given Ned's mother a backstory. Instead of saying, "Her name was Lyanna Hornwood and she died of a fever when Ned was young," or the like, he completely evades the question.

Well it's been five books already don't you think we would have found out something by now , even a little mention ?

[Lord Damian]

I am beginning to agree with some posters that Ned has a Royal claim to the iron throne through his mother's side. I re-read the Cersei -Ned conversation when he confronts her in the King's Landing Godswood. She told him he could have taken the throne the day the Mad King had died but he replied that Robert had the better claim. The Mad King wanted both Ned and Robert's heads after the Lord Rickard/ Brandon murders. Why?Because they, not just Robert had royal claims and he was paranoid of being overthrown. We know Robert decends from Aegon V, so might Ned - Ned's mom and Robert's might have been sisters. Robert told Ned when he went to the North to name him King that they were meant to rule together. This might be the clue to Rickard's Southern ambitions. Perhaps Rickard was planning on Brandon or helping Robert move closer to the throne due to the Targ madness and betterment for the kingdom. Or simply they were greedy like most other lords and simply wanted "more".

What are your thoughts?

[kissdbyfire]

Well it's been five books already don't you think we would have found out something by now , even a little mention ?

Maybe not. Especially if it is a secret that will put a different spin on things at a crucial moment. Say, book 7, 14 years from now. :dunno:

[Danyl Stark]

I am beginning to agree with some posters that Ned has a Royal claim to the iron throne through his mother's side. I re-read the Cersei -Ned conversation when he confronts her in the King's Landing Godswood. She told him he could have taken the throne the day the Mad King had died but he replied that Robert had the better claim. The Mad King wanted both Ned and Robert's heads after the Lord Rickard/ Brandon murders. Why?Because they, not just Robert had royal claims and he was paranoid of being overthrown. We know Robert decends from Aegon V, so might Ned - Ned's mom and Robert's might have been sisters. Robert told Ned when he went to the North to name him King that they were meant to rule together. This might be the clue to Rickard's Southern ambitions. Perhaps Rickard was planning on Brandon or helping Robert move closer to the throne due to the Targ madness and betterment for the kingdom. Or simply they were greedy like most other lords and simply wanted "more".

What are your thoughts?

if those are the words used then, "better claim" suggests that Ned at least had some claim to the throne but I think if he and Robert were that closely related then it would be mentioned, as to Rickard's southern ambitions, I don't really think they existed as like Ned he's probably going to be more inclined to stay in the North, also I think Ned's sense of honour would be inherited from his father so, Rickard wanting "more" seems unlikely.

[kissdbyfire]

I am beginning to agree with some posters that Ned has a Royal claim to the iron throne through his mother's side. I re-read the Cersei -Ned conversation when he confronts her in the King's Landing Godswood. She told him he could have taken the throne the day the Mad King had died but he replied that Robert had the better claim.

I have re-read that passage as well. It's not in that conversation Ned's 'claim' is mentioned.

It's when he is talking to Robert.

Here are both quotes:

Ned and Robert:

"Robert sat down again. “Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon.”

“You had the better claim, Your Grace.”

Ned and Cersei:

"You should have taken the realm for yourself. It was there for the taking. Jaime told me how you found him on the Iron Throne the day King’s Landing fell, and made him yield it up. That was your moment. All you needed to do was climb those steps, and sit. Such a sad mistake.”

“I have made more mistakes than you can possibly imagine,” Ned said, “but that was not one of them.”

“Oh, but it was, my lord,” Cersei insisted. “When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground.”

Still, Ned does indeed say Robert had a better claim. He could have simply said, 'I had no claim to the throne'.

So it is interesting, isn't it? I can't figure out where Ned's claim could come from.

The Mad King wanted both Ned and Robert's heads after the Lord Rickard/ Brandon murders. Why?Because they, not just Robert had royal claims and he was paranoid of being overthrown. We know Robert decends from Aegon V, so might Ned - Ned's mom and Robert's might have been sisters.

Steffon Baratheon (Rboert, Stannis and Renly's father) married an Estermont (Stormlands). Steffon's parents were lord Baratheon (don't know his name) and Rhaelle Targaryen. I just did a cery crude diagram:

Lord Baratheon m. Rhaelle Targaryen

|

Steffon Baratheon m. Cassana Estermont

_________________|_________________

| | |

Robert Stannis Renly

So even if Ned's mother had been Cassana Estermont's sister, and apparently she had no sisters but only two brothers, Ned's claim couldn't have come from that.

Robert told Ned when he went to the North to name him King that they were meant to rule together. This might be the clue to Rickard's Southern ambitions. Perhaps Rickard was planning on Brandon or helping Robert move closer to the throne due to the Targ madness and betterment for the kingdom. Or simply they were greedy like most other lords and simply wanted "more".

What are your thoughts?

I always thought that when Robert says they were meant to rule together it was because they had been brought up together as brothers by Jon Arryn, and because once Robert married Lyanna they would be bound by blood as well. Just checked, and it is one of those bits that made it into the HBO series practically verbatim:

“You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done.”

I must say, until reading your post I had not picked up on the 'better claim' phrasing. Well spotted.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think by right of conquest alone Ned had a claim. Robert had a better claim because he was descended from Targaryens.

[kissdbyfire]

I think by right of conquest alone Ned had a claim. Robert had a better claim because he was descended from Targaryens.

Yes, very good point. I suppose right of conquest, winning the war, etc would give him a claim of sorts, and of course, Robert's would be better.

[Lord Damian]

I have re-read that passage as well. It's not in that conversation Ned's 'claim' is mentioned.

It's when he is talking to Robert.

Here are both quotes:

Ned and Robert:

"Robert sat down again. “Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon.”

“You had the better claim, Your Grace.”

Ned and Cersei:

"You should have taken the realm for yourself. It was there for the taking. Jaime told me how you found him on the Iron Throne the day King’s Landing fell, and made him yield it up. That was your moment. All you needed to do was climb those steps, and sit. Such a sad mistake.”

“I have made more mistakes than you can possibly imagine,” Ned said, “but that was not one of them.”

“Oh, but it was, my lord,” Cersei insisted. “When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground.”

Still, Ned does indeed say Robert had a better claim. He could have simply said, 'I had no claim to the throne'.

So it is interesting, isn't it? I can't figure out where Ned's claim could come from.

Steffon Baratheon (Rboert, Stannis and Renly's father) married an Estermont (Stormlands). Steffon's parents were lord Baratheon (don't know his name) and Rhaelle Targaryen. I just did a cery crude diagram:

Lord Baratheon m. Rhaelle Targaryen

|

Steffon Baratheon m. Cassana Estermont

_________________|_________________

| | |

Robert Stannis Renly

So even if Ned's mother had been Cassana Estermont's sister, and apparently she had no sisters but only two brothers, Ned's claim couldn't have come from that.

I always thought that when Robert says they were meant to rule together it was because they had been brought up together as brothers by Jon Arryn, and because once Robert married Lyanna they would be bound by blood as well. Just checked, and it is one of those bits that made it into the HBO series practically verbatim:

“You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done.”

I must say, until reading your post I had not picked up on the 'better claim' phrasing. Well spotted.

Even better, thanks, I do not know if this will mean much in the end if Dany and the Dragons get to the Iron Throne of even if there will be on in the end but it is fun thinking about this.

[Lord Damian]

Yes, very good point. I suppose right of conquest, winning the war, etc would give him a claim of sorts, and of course, Robert's would be better.

The only problem with right of conquest is there are several kingdoms. It promotes instability and distrust. Aegon I needed huge fire breathing dragons to do it. Robert had to have a claim decending from Targ blood to be accepted. I wonder though, when the thought of seizing the throne rather than deposing Aerys for his younger son Viserys came to mind. Rheagar was dead, Aerys murdered by Jaime Lannister, They could have declared Visery's king but formed a strong council to oversee him with legal reforms that kept him and his successors from being absolute monarchs. Instead, it seems like everyone simply said, here Robert, take it.