How do female readers view these books?

[deleted01]

Never have I been offended by something I've read in a book. I've seen a lot of articles and stuff floating around that claim that these books, and the TV series, are not for women. Why? Yes, rape is disgusting, and something every woman (and man) should have a healthy fear of. Incest is disgusting, but they were two consenting adults and I'm quite liberal-minded. Murder - don't see why that would particularly offend a woman, I would have thought men and women alike would disagree with murder. Maybe it's the gore? I hate horror films, but I've got quite a strong stomach; I'm more scared of the psychological things than the physical, literal harming of someone (is that weird? xD). The gore in these books doesn't bother me, one of the few times I winced was when Arya ripped her thumbnail when trying to climb up Baelor :lol:

Anywho, it's been said a lot already, but no, not offended at all, but a very good question to ask, OP. Seems like a lot of people, namely journalists, have been making sexist assumptions yet again.

[MarianneSnow]

^{I don't have a problem with the language or actions towards women in the context of the story Sometimes I find myself getting upset about the treatment of children and maybe that is because I am a recent mother. I get upset over alot of things and that is what I like about the series. It makes me care. In the world the GRRM is creating, disturbing things happen, just like they do in the real world I guess.}

[Fire_Kiss]

Seems there was a bunch of editing going on... Did I miss something and do something wrong?

Anyways, I feel yah, in regards to the treatment of children. The world is awful, as the Hound says, an Martin does a wonderful job at showing us just how awful people can be, but also how beautiful it is when others can rise above their awful circumstances

Heck, the unsullied have had a rough life, but I think part of the reason they haven't caught the plague yet is because they stick to some common sense traditions, like bathing daily.

[Baitac]

I think there's a difference between being upset and being offended. I have been very upset when reading certain events such as the Red WeddIng, the crucifiction of children, or the torture inflicted on Theon. The same goes for rape and other types of violence against women. But I think that GRRM wants us to be upset about these things. He wants us to support characters that don't stand for this or see the error of their ways. I have never been offended. If I had, I would have stopped reading immediately. I love this series.

[1234567]

I am not shocked by the books. Like all fiction there is stuff to horrify, love, laugh at and find amusing. It is the reactions of other people to certain scenes that I find shocking.

[Pliny]

I wasn't surprised or shocked at the language used to describe or refer to women - but then, I'm used to reading books either written or set in older days, not to mention I'm a historian, so I was trained to put such things in perspective. Seriously, I'm more shocked reading how some eighteenth century liberals refer to women than ASoIaF.

I disagree here. I think the series is fit for readers of our time (XX-XXI century), not necessarily male or female. There are many strong female characters to counterbalance the pejorative terms, and who are just as human as the men. Girl power is strong there, my friends. ;)

You're a historian? Nice. What is your area of specialization? I am a history professor (part-time- I stay home with my baby). My areas of specialization are the ancient Mediterranean and the United States western expansion (two very different areas, I know). :)

I've got to disagree about there being "many" strong female characters. There are a few, but it seems to me that most are merely 2-d caricatures and tropes. I mean, look at the Sand Snakes- we've got the femme fatale, the sweet and deadly, the butch fighter. And how many screw-ups do we have amongst the women versus the men? Let's see... Catelyn, Sansa, Cersei, Arianne... these are some of the main women, too.

Well, it is a minority of men in the books who uses that kind of language, and I mean, that happens these days as well, just last week I was out late on town (I'm swedish), and I saw these young turkish men trying to stop some young beautiful swedish women, they rejected the turks, and the turks then right away started screaming stuff like "whore" etc.

And it's a medieval setting, not strange that women were traded somewhat, and the dowry was the sum they were sold for (this has been really twisted by feminists though like everything else)

And yes, it is weird that they marry such old men, but it makes sense if you think about it since even old men want heirs, and old women might not be able to provide those (most def they won't)

The swedish king Gustav Vasa married a 16-yearold girl when he was really old.

And Viserys was insane, so he got that excuse. (Or really stupid at least)

And let's not forget there are similar outrages done by women, Cersei pretty much uses men in her life like Lancel for example....and we all read about the castrating women pirates etc.

EDIT: And of my experience with women irl, they actually want to be manhandled/dominated. Seems to me women are naturally submissive, I was taught when I grew up that women wanted nice men, women today pretty much beg me to dominate them, which I find weird. (Wish someone had taught me that as a kid)

Just a bit of friendly advice - women are not some monolithic group (we're not all the same). It's probably not a good idea to think that all women "want to be manhandled/dominated." Unless you want to be "manhandled" back.

Offended? No. Shocked? Well, there are actually scenes that would make me sick, for example, the scenes of Gregor's, Biter's or any other monster's actions. A lot that made me cry or those that made me want to take a sword in my hands and defense someone in the scene. I have very vivid imagination and heightened sense of justice (and sometime the one I want to defend is not woman).

I understand that this book/world of ASoIaF has its rules and its exceptions (women-warriors, for example), and I except all that with understanding. I wouldn't be reading the book in first place if it was disgusting or worse.

P.S: Jcooper,I like this topic and it is really interesting to read other people's opinions. Thanks.

This. I understand that, at different times, different places, and in different cultures, there were different rules and expectations. This is a main theme I teach in my World Civilizations course. Some of the violence, harsh realities of war, torture, depraved acts in this story do bother me. And they are supposed to. Ladies (and gentlemen), nobody will think less of you if you say that reading about how the Unsullied were "made" disturbed you. It was supposed to.

The original question asked if women are affected differently (I think this was the intent). Perhaps. We all have different perspectives, and our gender is just one part of our own unique cultural and personal "lens" through which we interpret what we experience (or read). As an animal lover, the part about Lady really bothers me. I don't like to imagine her confusion as Ned kills her (but I agree it was kinder for him to do it than to have a stranger do it). Also I have found that since I've become a mother, some things disturb me more. I've shown the "Genocide" episode of "The World at War" documentary series each time I teach about World War II (this episode deals with the Holocaust, using film as well as interviews with survivors and Nazis). I've seen it probably 20 times. This last time, when a mother was describing waiting in line with her daughter to be shot, seeing her little girl shot, then being shot herself (but surviving) and lying still in the open grave, I nearly cried there in class. A student (also a mom) reacted similarly. I believe we were affected differently as parents (but my father insisted it had more to due with life-experience and maturity).

So, yes, I think I am disturbed by some things in the books more than others would be. It bothers me to think about Weasel running off on her own- a two-year-old alone, hungry, scared, for example. It also bothers me that there aren't really any examples of good, competent mothers among the major characters in ASOIAF; Cat, Cersei, Dany (to her dragons).

As women, there are things we have in common, which will affect how we experience things, but we also have the rest of our character, experiences, culture, education, etc which also affects how we interpret. Ladies, having different feelings (than a perceived male interpretation) does not mean you have "the weak heart of a woman," it just means you have a different reaction. I wonder, do the men reading experience the same anxiety and fear for Brienne when she's facing rape by those horrible people? No offense meant to the younger women (I'm 28), but I wonder if we related to Cersei during her "walk of shame" the same way. Towards the end, she's realizing she's not the unstoppable beauty she once was, with her stretch marks, etc... I don't know if I would have empathized with here in that moment nearly as much 1 year ago (before my son was born).

Very interesting topic- thanks for asking this question!

[Sammi]

I'm very fortunate to not have suffered like the female characters in the books, so I've never found rape scenes triggering. The incest between two characters in A Game Of Thrones didn't even shock me. And I don't find the series sexist or demeaning in any way - it's just the way things were during the time period.

[The GRRumbler]

I've got to disagree about there being "many" strong female characters. There are a few, but it seems to me that most are merely 2-d caricatures and tropes. I mean, look at the Sand Snakes- we've got the femme fatale, the sweet and deadly, the butch fighter. And how many screw-ups do we have amongst the women versus the men? Let's see... Catelyn, Sansa, Cersei, Arianne... these are some of the main women, too.

I think all of these are strong female characters, and the fact that they're "screw-ups" is what makes them interesting, to me at least, and we have plenty of screw-up male characters too, only from the Lannister family i can remember Jaime, Tyrion, Tywin and Lancel.

[The Storm Queen]

Overall I am content with the way Martin wrote his female characters. We got the picture of a misogynistic society but also the fact how it messed people up and leads to lots of problem. However I really wish that Martin would have been more sensitive towards the issue Cersei´s arc deals with

It makes sense for Westerosi society to focus on her sexuality and to condemn it and to side with Robert even if he abuses and rapes her. Yet I wish that Martin on the meta-level would have been able to empathize more that a) Cersei´s real crimes are her allowing the torture of others etc and not her sexuality b. she has the right to rebell against the role of women in her society and only her methods are deeply wrong and flawed

[Ygrain]

Never have I been offended by something I've read in a book. I've seen a lot of articles and stuff floating around that claim that these books, and the TV series, are not for women. Why? Yes, rape is disgusting, and something every woman (and man) should have a healthy fear of. Incest is disgusting, but they were two consenting adults and I'm quite liberal-minded. Murder - don't see why that would particularly offend a woman, I would have thought men and women alike would disagree with murder. Maybe it's the gore? I hate horror films, but I've got quite a strong stomach; I'm more scared of the psychological things than the physical, literal harming of someone (is that weird? xD). The gore in these books doesn't bother me, one of the few times I winced was when Arya ripped her thumbnail when trying to climb up Baelor :lol:

Anywho, it's been said a lot already, but no, not offended at all, but a very good question to ask, OP. Seems like a lot of people, namely journalists, have been making sexist assumptions yet again.

Huh? I'm quite used to the notion of doing non-girly things, since I started reading adventure and SFand F books at quite an early age, but I was under the impression that once I became adult, my choice of leisure reading was purely my choice and I certainly wasn't aware there were "books for men" and "books for women", like in that Yentl scene. Could you post a link to some of that stuff? Apparently, some people there need their brains checked.

[Melifeather]

The books are very life like and this is what the world is still like today. All of the bad things are of course objectionable and terrible, but none of us lead sheltered lives where we need or want to be censored.

[Fire_Kiss]

Apparently, some people there need their brains checked.

I'm sure Qyburn would be happy to help with that.

[Pliny]

I think all of these are strong female characters, and the fact that they're "screw-ups" is what makes them interesting, to me at least, and we have plenty of screw-up male characters too, only from the Lannister family i can remember Jaime, Tyrion, Tywin and Lancel.

I agree that it makes them interesting, and if nobody made mistakes, there would be no story. I guess my impression was that the men in the story are, overall, smarter. I suppose that could be a commentary on the culture of Westeros, though.

Perhaps I'm forgetting something crucial, but I wouldn't call Tywin a screw up. He's Mr. In-control.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I think there's a difference between being upset and being offended. I have been very upset when reading certain events such as the Red WeddIng, the crucifiction of children, or the torture inflicted on Theon. The same goes for rape and other types of violence against women. But I think that GRRM wants us to be upset about these things. He wants us to support characters that don't stand for this or see the error of their ways. I have never been offended. If I had, I would have stopped reading immediately. I love this series.

Yes. One of the basic premises of this series, one that drives the plot and creates interest, is the idea that no one is safe, no matter how young, old, popular, beautiful, powerful, etc. . . . A lot of the scenes are written for shock value, and I think GRRM would be terribly disappointed if most people were indifferent to descriptions of cruxified children, or raped and mutilated women, or desecrated bodies of heroes, and there's enough there to shock every reader at least once.

Of all the things in Cersei's "Walk of Shame" POV, I was most up by the scene where she was being shaved by the Septas because that was so symbolic of women participating in the oppression of women, which happens so often. So that particular incident was fantastic (in terms of "fantasy") and terrible and true, all at once. But there was a lesson there, and where there's a lesson, there's some value.

There's also a lot in this series that would appeal to women; there's the sister-drama, with the lady and the tom-boy, there are all those variations on Xena, Warrior Princess, there are all those anxious mothers and children in peril, there are the descriptions of the courts, palaces, clothes and food, that I suspect appeal to women slightly more than they appeal to men, there are puppies, kitties (old maid with cats here!) and horsies, handsome hunks swinging great big swords . . . afaic, this series is far from "boys only."

[headtrip_honey]

I agree that it makes them interesting, and if nobody made mistakes, there would be no story. I guess my impression was that the men in the story are, overall, smarter. I suppose that could be a commentary on the culture of Westeros, though.

Perhaps I'm forgetting something crucial, but I wouldn't call Tywin a screw up. He's Mr. In-control.

Well he did say whore right after his psychologically traumatized son HOLDING A CROSSBOW told him not to.

ETA:

also

Ned - lovable honorable fuck up

Robert - wife beating fuck up

Robb - too honorable for his own good fuck up

Jorah - can't apologize when he should and thus gets banished fuck up

just to name a few

[ledlevee]

Even as a male reader, I have to admit that I was shocked (not necessarily offended) by a few scenes involving women. Taken as a whole, the series has a lot of shocking sequences. I also agree with others who say male characters' treatment of women is appropriate to the mirrored time period in our world and the way women were actually treated long ago. However, that doesn't change the fact I was taken aback at times, three times specifically come to mind:

1. The first time Drogo raped Dany. She was young and it was shocking and I felt really sorry for her. Of course things changed when she actually fell in love with him, but it didn't change my initial reaction.

2. Comments some character (I can't remember who now) made regarding the prospect of men raping or having sex with Arya. Just the suggestion of it made me feel a little queasy. One of her companions during her failed journey through the riverlands said something along these lines.

3. When Joff was getting ready to torture sansa and someone ripped off her clothes in front of everyone. Of course Tyrion came to her rescue, but this scene still jarred me.

These were all well written scenes, and don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they were bad or shouldn't have been there. They all just had a jarring effect on me. However, GRRM's ability to surprise and shock is one of the main reasons I love his work.

[deleted01]

Huh? I'm quite used to the notion of doing non-girly things, since I started reading adventure and SFand F books at quite an early age, but I was under the impression that once I became adult, my choice of leisure reading was purely my choice and I certainly wasn't aware there were "books for men" and "books for women", like in that Yentl scene. Could you post a link to some of that stuff? Apparently, some people there need their brains checked.

Sixth paragraph is stupidly laughable: http://tv.nytimes.co...hbo-review.html

And here's an article quoting that dick I think, but then it goes into how fantasy is 'sexed up' to attract women, which I found weird: http://www.themarysu...s-review-women/

ETA: love GRRM's quotes on that second one :lol:

They're the two I read. Apparently this Ginia Bellafante kicked it all off, because she doesn't know any women who read fantasy or some crap. There's load of it all over the internet, and now more recently the reactions to such assumptions. Some people most definitely need their heads checked, but it also winds me up when I see people trying to explain why some women might like things like GoT or the books. We read/watch because we ENJOY it. I don't have to be a man to read about a rape, and why should a man feel more comfortable about reading about rape anyway? Surely they have sisters, mothers, grandmothers, girlfriends, wives, daughters, aunts, cousins? Just because they're a man, doesn't mean a book with rape and blood and murder and sex is "for them". Like I said, I can understand about the gore, because a lot of girls I know don't like stuff like that - me? Meh, doesn't bother me. Actually, the gorier the better, in terms of when they're trying to enact a war scene or something similar. It makes it seem more real. I think it all comes down to people STILL believing that women are the 'weaker sex' <_<

[Sasha Steelsong]

No. Nothing offensive for me. That's the way of that world... and still the way of some parts of our world. I may abhor it, I may detest it, but I can't pretend it does not exist. Even high fantasy Tolkien has hints at rape, there's no escape from that.

This. Rape, incest, second-class citizen status of women is something that has happened (and is still happening to various degrees) all over the world and thus it has appropriate places in fiction. My library would be a very sad and barren place if I was scared of/turned off by stories where women face these issues and have to get around them (or not depending on the individual woman of course). The truth is to varying degrees this world sucks for everyone (even those who seem to be winning), it is ugly and cruel and entirely unforgiving to men and women alike, just in different (though at times equally horrific) ways.

[Woman of War]

Sorry double, too stupid to edit

[Summerqueen]

I'm one of those people who argue that appropriate is not exactly the right word for the way men often treat women violently in ASOIAF, as I do not find it fitting or proper, only realistic and relevant. There's a big difference.

If the male characters do use offensive language, manhandle women, or commit even more despicable acts, their behavior makes me dislike them more and think worse of them as fictional people. But it is all mitigated by the understanding that I'm reading fiction (American women are more likely to read, and read any type of fiction than American men, so it shouldn't be surprising that women read ASOIF).

I guess the "shocking" acts against women by the male characters provide some objective distance from those male characters, even in a POV? A guy who constantly confesses how he should have or wants to rape whichever woman loses a great deal of my sympathy, no exceptions. It makes me think more about his actions and motivations, and it makes me think he harbors some inferiority complex if he has to get off on humiliating or brutalizing women to prove he's in control of something. If he constantly uses words like whore, cunt, etc., I try to work out whether he feels threatened on a masculinity level, or if it's abusive for some other reason. It's not behavior I can respect or appreciate. But I do try to work out what's going on there. But the character of that character suffers in my esteem, certainly; and I have to work harder to sympathize with or like the character after such revelations.

Unlike other works of fiction, Martin's characters rarely allow me to wish I knew people like them in real life or permit me to say "Oh, this character reminds me so much of my friend/dad/colleague!" It's more like "this character is just like that creep on the bus the other day." I expect the author understands that this will be the case for some of his readers, so I take it as a cue not to become too attached or emotionally invested in those characters. If bad things happen down the road to them, I'm sorry for them, but my heart isn't broken over it. And maybe that's the point.