Cercei's public penitence procession: Did the punishment fit the crime?

[Queen of the Vale]

I do agree that it was horribly sexist. But I think it was used as a way to kick her while she's down, and try to remove her pride. Perhaps it could have, and should have been done in a different way that didn't humiliate Cersei is a sexual way, because in the context of the story, as several people have pointed out, it draws Tommen's and Myrcella's legitimacy into account. I think the High Septon is counting on her champion losing, before she's actually punished for all of her other crimes.

[Silmarien]

In fairness to Lancel, his penance has taken a huge variety of quite-severe forms. I don't buy into the sexist unfairness aspect of the situation. He was also in many ways a victim, literally trapped between two very evil people (Tyrion and Cersei).

The problem for me is simply that this kind of penance makes no kind of sense as a moral policy. Seriously, High Septon? You frown on sexual license and fornication, and your solution to this is to force sinners to put on public nudie shows? How does that help? What will you do if she backslides and sins again? "Ah, woman, you must be humiliated further! This time you must have sex with an entire platoon of soldiers. And then we must punish the soldiers. I'll rape them all myself .... "

I don't really care about the unfairness to Cersei. Indeed, it seemed plausible that her humiliation might be part of a redemption arc; that it might actually do her some good spiritually. But the High Septon is responsible for other souls, including his own. This grotesque voyeuristic display certainly did not do anything to help any of the other souls in King's Landing. What about all those mean-spirited people who were shouting abuse and insults? Are THEIR souls the better for it?

Now, I would be tempted to blame the High Septon as a deranged hypocrite, but I think that would be unfair to the High Septon. I think we need to blame GRRM.

GRRM has a deficient sense of modesty and decency. Scenes that might have been effective, go a step too far and cross the line into silly voyeurism. He does not know where to draw the line. This is not the first example, nor (I am afraid) will it be the last.

For instance, there's that utterly idiotic "Westerosi bedding ceremony" that kills suspension of disbelief every time it is mentioned. There is Catelyn parading naked in front of her Maester for absolutely no good reason. There is GRRM's repulsive attempt to manipulate the reader into feeling disgusted with Lysa by a lurid description of her puffy 30-year-old nakedness in the context of breastfeeding. He has highborn girls, supposedly polite and reserved, publicly discussing their menstrual functions in front of strange men. "I'm no child; I am a woman flowered". Etc. etc. etc.

Lancel was responsible indirectly for Robert's murder! Regicide! And psychological torture and penance was all he had to do for his atonement. It's egregiously unfair.

Cersei's WoS was solely to punish her for fornication. She's to be tried for treason, regicide, incest, etc, at a later time.

I'll agree with you the HS is nuts about public nudity shaming rituals. So KL seeing Cersei naked isn't going to instill lust in them? Are their insults okay (what about the Mother's mercy?).

I don't agree that GRRM has any deficiency of modesty. The middle ages were quite bawdy times to live in. Nudity wasn't a huge deal - I don't see Cat walking across a room naked in front of her virtual OBGYN to be immodest.

Repulsive attempt to show Lysa as deranged and puffy? That's her character! She's been through a forced abortion at a young age, had 6 children and only one lived and he's sickly, and she breast-feeds him. She's got a serious mental illness (obsession with Petyr also, let's not forget that). She kills her husband. Why is this GRRM's fault? They are HIS CHARACTERS. Why would you want him to write Lysa as a docile kind and beautiful lady....that would be quite boring, and would ruin the entire storyline re her and Petyr and the one-sided love/obsession.

And I doubt it was uncommon for females to say "I am a woman flowered". That's quite a euphemism, because menstruation is not flowery at all (as Sansa thinks to herself in ACoK). If he had them saying "Yo, I'm bleeding from my vagina, isn't that cool?" Then I'd agree. But "flowered" is a euphemism just to indicate they are women and capable of childbirth.

[The Shadowbinder]

If you look at her arc in AFFC, she starts to resemble GWB in some of the things she's done (mainly, sanctioning Qyburn's experimental torture).

Off-topic but I'm really curious, when exactly did George Bush sanction experimental tourture again...?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Have I told you how much I love you? :grouphug:

Not lately, but thank you :)

[puenboy]

after being imprissoned for illicit sexual acts, false accusations against Margery, and abuse of power, Cersei is granted freedom provided that she walk from her prison to the castle. Small detail: she must process barefoot, naked, and fully shaved from head to tow. Did her crimes and sins merit this punishment? How do you see this event affecting the Queen and those around her.

She will still be tried for crimes she did not confess (murder of Robert etc.) and if she is found guilty then it is likely that Ser Ilyn will be doing his job.

I'm just hoping that Meryn Trant will be fighting against Robert Strong in the trial by battle, when he suddenly reveals himself as Syrio Forel with Trant as a disguise. Would be an epic comeback for Syrio :D

[False Spring]

I thoroughly enjoy how bothered GRRM makes people. The more cringing the better. The first thing I'll address is this idea of fairness I see being brought up in here. If this far into the series, you're still complaining about fair/unfair, I suggest you stop perusing the sparknotes of ASOIAF and pick up the books. That concept was shattered a very long time ago. As to the other stuff, the High Septon clearly plans to restore some modicum of pre-Jaehaerys power to the Faith. We've spent these five books reading about all of these characters making plays for power but are surprised by this? The walk of shame is less about shaming her and more about breaking her. Religion is only half of the motivation for the High Septon if that much. Power is a much bigger carrot at the end of the stick. Is it sexist? yeah, cruel? yup, contrived? nope.

[Aegon I]

Osney Kettleback confessed to fornication with margery and was tourtured severly.

[Silmarien]

Off-topic but I'm really curious, when exactly did George Bush sanction experimental tourture again...?

Um yeah, how is Bush-bashing coming into this argument? It's an inappropriate analogy. Waterboarding is not the same as using and vilely torturing women to create a zombie monster KG. Can we keep politics OUT of this? It never ends well...

[Silmarien]

I thoroughly enjoy how bothered GRRM makes people. The more cringing the better. The first thing I'll address is this idea of fairness I see being brought up in here. If this far into the series, you're still complaining about fair/unfair, I suggest you stop perusing the sparknotes of ASOIAF and pick up the books. That concept was shattered a very long time ago. As to the other stuff, the High Septon clearly plans to restore some modicum of pre-Jaehaerys power to the Faith. We've spent these five books reading about all of these characters making plays for power but are surprised by this? The walk of shame is less about shaming her and more about breaking her. Religion is only half of the motivation for the High Septon if that much. Power is a much bigger carrot at the end of the stick. Is it sexist? yeah, cruel? yup, contrived? nope.

Yeah I don't get the arguments that it was contrived. Cersei was sleep deprived and tortured for weeks (or awhile, at least) until she finally broke and confessed. She would have done ANYTHING to get out of there, even the WoS; she feared for her son, Tommen. How is that contrived?

[Guest]

The punishment fit the story. Cersei being shaved, stripped and paraded across King's Landing is the exact equivalent of Jaime losing his right hand, Bran being crippled, Theon being gelded, and on and on and on. They all lost that which they value most, which, as should be quite apparent, is a running motif in the series. Anyone who expects differently at this point is simply deluding themselves.

Right, but some of us are trying to point out the gender double standards in this "running motif"

Also, when it comes to Cersei, "losing what they value most" is still unclear to me. Her "pride" wasn't obliterated. She still had it at the end when she vowed to destroy everyone who laughed or jeered at her. That's the kind of pride that makes me stand up and cheer. What she really "lost" was her basic right to privacy...and this is what she values most? No, I think its a value every human person has, so its nothing special for her characterization.

She could value her pride, but I think what that really means is that she values her high social status, to the point of hubris. The idea of "breaking" Cersei in "the only way a prideful, high status woman can be broken" is really creepy to me. Unlike Bran, Jaime's, or Theon's story, there is hatred of femininity and perverse ideas of female sexuality to contend with in this decision. I'm curious to read others thoughts if it originates from Westeros, the author, or both.

[boojam]

after being imprissoned for illicit sexual acts, false accusations against Margery, and abuse of power, Cersei is granted freedom provided that she walk from her prison to the castle. Small detail: she must process barefoot, naked, and fully shaved from head to tow. Did her crimes and sins merit this punishment? How do you see this event affecting the Queen and those around her.

Frankly George sent me a bolt out of the blue when what looked like a window dressing religion,Faith of the Seven, is given more powers than the Catholic Church! As far as I am concerned , as a plot element, this was not set up very well.

The more powerful Catholic spent centuries in vain dispute with European monarchies (when push came to shove) for influence over aristocratic politics.

The somewhat diffusely portrayed 'Faith of Westeros' never convinced me it had even that kind of power.

[SeanF]

The fact that Cersei would agree to this doesn't strain my credulity. She's been abandoned by the Small Council, deprived of sleep for weeks on end, and kept on a subsistence diet. As far as she knows, she'll be kept in solitary confinement until she is placed on trial. She had very little option but to confess to fornication, and agree to the walk.

The fact that the government would allow a Queen Mother to be detained by the High Septon, and then paraded naked for the mob's amusement, is far harder to believe, given the damage it does to the standing of the monarchy and House Lannister.

There were cases of monarchs atoning to the Church for their sins, such as Henry II attoning for the murder of Thomas Beckett, or Henry IV standing barefoot in the snow at Canossa, but they were forms of atonement that helped restore their reputation for piety. The equivalent would have been for Cersei to confess her sins before a congregation in the Great Sept, not for her to be paraded naked to gratify a mob,

[SeanF]

Frankly George sent me a bolt out of the blue when what looked like a window dressing religion,Faith of the Seven, is given more powers than the Catholic Church! As far as I am concerned , as a plot element, this was not set up very well.

The more powerful Catholic spent centuries in vain dispute with European monarchies (when push came to shove) for influence over aristocratic politics.

The somewhat diffusely portrayed 'Faith of Westeros' never convinced me it had even that kind of power.

The High Septon resembles more a figure like Savanarola, or John Calvin, who tried to establish theocracies, rather than the average medieval bishop or Pope.

[ipsuel]

The punishment fit the story. Cersei being shaved, stripped and paraded across King's Landing is the exact equivalent of Jaime losing his right hand, Bran being crippled, Theon being gelded, and on and on and on. They all lost that which they value most, which, as should be quite apparent, is a running motif in the series. Anyone who expects differently at this point is simply deluding themselves.

Agreed, and I'll add--> (Minus Bran) They lost not only what they themselves valued most--but they lost the aspect that gave them POWER over other people. Cersei used her beauty, her aloof I'm-better-than-you attitude, her body, etc. to control others. Losing that power was exactly what was warranted.

As for the shave details, it didn't bother me. It was all part of her humiliation, a part that we needed to see.

[SeanF]

This scene was one of the few times when I felt genuinely resentful toward GRRM as an author, because the entire thing was so contrived and shamelessly salacious.

The author needed Cersei back at the Red Keep. He needed to show Robert Strong, and begin rebuilding Cersei's position before her trial, for whatever outcome he intends there. He also (evidently) needed her chastened (or believed to be so) by those around her. Either Cersei is going to come roaring back as the lioness in TWOW and find a way to make herself a force to be reckoned with again, or she is truly broken and TWOW will see her continue her downward spiral to complete self destruction. Either way, he needed her back at the Keep, free(ish) to act in some direction, and he needed both her enemies and whatever friends she has left to believe she has been broken.

IMO the way he came up with to make this come about was extremely difficult to find credible, unbelievably sexist (even taking into account that this is Westeros and not modern times), and one of the most cringeworthy things I have ever read in my life. There are a hundred other ways that he could have written her being released to the Keep both chastened and having made some form of atonement, that would not have involved this "walk of shame." The entire scene where she is forcibly shaved bare by strange women was bad enough. Having it followed by parading her out into the streets naked was unbelievably awful. But then when he began throwing in the crowd's rude and lewd commentary about her breasts and stretch marks (and all this, about a slender woman in her mid 30's who has borne three children), I found that my respect for him as an author had actually slipped down several notches.

If the scene had even been remotely credible, I might could have overlooked its sheer misogynism the same way one must overlook viciously realistic depictions of battles, rapes, etc. But the entire idea itself was so utterly farfetched that I can only assume it was included to satisfy some rather base and ugly whim on the part of the author. Regardless of how many sparrows are hanging around Baelor's Sept, regardless of what a woman-hating pig the HS is, regardless of how angry the powers surrounding the crown might be with Cersei, this is the king's mother. She is of noble blood*, a member of the royal family, and the crimes for which she is being "punished" are of the type that tend to be either accepted as inevitable, or hushed up to avoid a scandal. I will never be convinced that the powers surrounding Tommen, even the Tyrells, would ever have allowed such a thing to take place, no matter how much they hate Cersei. It reflects horribly on all the nobility and opens them up for the same possible treatment one day (after all, if the HS can do as he pleases with the queen mother, then who is safe from his judgment and sentences?).

Most importantly, it undermines the position and dignity of the crown at a time when it most desperately needs shoring up. The rest of the court cannot stand back and say "hey, don't look at us." In such a firmly divided classist society, the sins of one member of the nobility are most definitely seen as the sins of them all, insofar as the populace is concerned. Lastly, this is a subversion of the power structure in Westeros almost on the same order of magnitude as Henry VIII breaking from Rome, except in reverse. Henry decided that the church would no longer have any authority over the crown. With this walk, it appears the Regent, Hand and Council have allowed the church to seize the true authority from the crown, by pretending to be powerless to stop it from happening.

*note: I am not saying that Cersei should have been spared this only because she was highborn, I would he just as disgusted if it happened to a milkmaid. I am simply explaining why I find it utterly impossible to believe in the context of the story, utterly contrived, and borne of suspect motivations.

Cersei absolutely deserves trial and just punishment for her crimes. This was nothing even approaching that. It was a public spectacle put on to appeal to the basest nature of the crowds (and, more disturbingly, the readers) which had no credibility whatsoever, and the author did himself a great discredit by writing it, IMO.

I agree with a great deal of that, save that I don't see anything salacious about the chapter at all. It was an extremely uncomfortable read (for me, at any rate), and certainly made me feel a degree of sympathy for Cersei that I hadn't felt previously.

[mormont]

The fact that Cersei would agree to this doesn't strain my credulity. She's been abandoned by the Small Council, deprived of sleep for weeks on end, and kept on a subsistence diet. As far as she knows, she'll be kept in solitary confinement until she is placed on trial. She had very little option but to confess to fornication, and agree to the walk.

The fact that the government would allow a Queen Mother to be detained by the High Septon, and then paraded naked for the mob's amusement, is far harder to believe, given the damage it does to the standing of the monarchy and House Lannister.

This did seem to me to be part of the point. Laying aside for the moment the arguments about Kevan's possible complicity in the deal, I think GRRM intended to provide an illustration of exactly how much strength the Faith now has in King's Landing. Their power may be temporary, but it is - for the moment at least - very real. For the High Septon, who I think is a smarter cookie than is sometimes taken into account, the very thing you're complaining about is part of what he wanted out of the deal: his intention is to make an ambitious statement that nobody is beyond his power, a message that could add to his standing with the smallfolk and make the nobles cautious in moving against him.

Is it realistic? Well, it's certainly very exaggerated. But if you're going to say you dislike exaggerated political situations, you're reading the wrong series (and probably the wrong genre).

[SeanF]

This did seem to me to be part of the point. Laying aside for the moment the arguments about Kevan's possible complicity in the deal, I think GRRM intended to provide an illustration of exactly how much strength the Faith now has in King's Landing. Their power may be temporary, but it is - for the moment at least - very real. For the High Septon, who I think is a smarter cookie than is sometimes taken into account, the very thing you're complaining about is part of what he wanted out of the deal: his intention is to make an ambitious statement that nobody is beyond his power, a message that could add to his standing with the smallfolk and make the nobles cautious in moving against him.

Is it realistic? Well, it's certainly very exaggerated. But if you're going to say you dislike exaggerated political situations, you're reading the wrong series (and probably the wrong genre).

That's a fair point. After all, the nobles of Florence hated Savanarola, but had to humour him for a time.

WRT exaggerated political situations, one of the strengths of the series is that it is mostly very realistic, politically.

[The GRRumbler]

In an interview, GRRM noted that such punishments were designed to "break a woman's pride," and that "with Cersei, that's pretty essiential, because pride is pretty much the character." I disagree-- Cersei's cruelty, not her pride, is what has driven her to her truly heinous acts. Though, in AFFC, and to a slightly lesser extent, earlier volumes, more time is spent on Cersei's sexual activities, her haughty demeanor, "unnatural" desire for power, refusal to submit to a man, rejection of the "good" Tyrion and Robert Baratheon, and (it is implied) unjust resentment against her society than on her actual cruel deeds. (The one-- rather strange--- exception to this rule being her murder of Sansa's direwolf.)

I think you're confusing what the readers think about the WoS with what the Autor actually intended for it to mean. As someone mentioned above, we're way past the point of thinking about fairness in this series, one of the things that make it more realistic is really the fact that there's no such thing as fairness in it, really. I think the objective of the WoS was in fact to break her pride and give the High Septon the upper hand in the struggle for power that has been going on for a while now, there's a sexist aspect to it? Obivously yes. Is the autor trying to defend the idea that women should be shamed for their sexuality? Obviously no, he is showing that in a medievalistic society these kind of double standards would happen and women would be judged a lot more harshly in their sexuality than man, as i said before, one thing is what the autor is trying to show us in his stories, another thing is wether he is defending it or not, and often times i see people pointing out certain judgements about aspects of the story that have been brough up by the readers as if the autor had said or defended that, we have to be carefull not to commit such mistake.

IMO, the walk was, like most of Cersei's (and, to a slightly lesser extent, Jaime's) character arc in AFFC, very poorly plotted, contrived, and embarassingly manipulative. Throughout AFFC, Cersei's "wicked" sexual deeds (which get more demonization than Tyrion's rapes) are catalogued in almost obsessive detail; readers are encouraged to hate her on a very personal level, and root for her commupance-- something that, disturbingly, has major sexual overtones. I wish I could say that Cersei's sexual humiliation in ADWD came as a surprise, but it is really the only sensible continuation of her storyline in AFFC.

Manipulative? Really this is what most of the politics in this series has been about, manipulation, treason, etc. They get more demonized by the readers, let me point that out, and not everyone, not me at least. I don't think Martin is trying to encourage the readers to hate her, if they hate her for her sexual deeds that's on them, their misoginy, not the autor's, again, you're confusing the readers interpretetions with the autor's intent.

As for the "it was all the sexism of the times," explanation, I would love to accept that. And unlike some others, considering ADWD on its own merits alone, I think it would be possible to do so. Unfortunately, however, taking into account Cersei's previous characterizatiion and the things she is demonized for and the aspects of her behavior that are obsessively focused on, I find it impossible to believe that the walk of shame was written solely (or even primarily, or even partially) for the purpose of showing the unjust sexism of Westeros.

You're confusing the conclusion that readers draw from the books, and the sexual aspects in wich they frame they hate for Cersei with the autor's intent for the character, i don't think Martin is trying to "make" the readers hate Cersei, i don't think he is defending that women should be hated for their sexual deeds as you trying to imply, if there's misoginy in the way the characters are being judged that's on the readers, not the autor.

[Lummel]

She could value her pride, but I think what that really means is that she values her high social status, to the point of hubris. The idea of "breaking" Cersei in "the only way a prideful, high status woman can be broken" is really creepy to me. Unlike Bran, Jaime's, or Theon's story, there is hatred of femininity and perverse ideas of female sexuality to contend with in this decision. I'm curious to read others thoughts if it originates from Westeros, the author, or both.

In the game of thrones you either win or you die. I believe somebody in the series says something like that. The game of thrones is politics, but not as we are used to it, because it's raw and the players are barely if at all constrained in what they are prepared to do to gain or keep power.

Did the punishment fit the crime is neither here nor there in that sense. There is simply a political opportunity that others are making use of.

One of the themes of the book is 'life is not a song'. There are codes and values that people play lip service to but when it comes to the game of thrones those values have no influence on their actions.

I think it's virtually irrelevent what the High Septon's and Keven's views on female sexuality are, at that moment it's cersei's weak point and they exploit it for political gain.

[deleted01]

I find it astonishing that people haven't mentioned Cersei's other crimes. GRRM knew we would have our own opinions on her, because of her actions in the past (incest, killing her husband, letting Joffrey act the way he did, using sex as a weapon, having Alayaya whipped, abusing Tyrion when he was a child - and completely innocent at that point, let me point out - treating Tommen like crap, forcing Sansa into marriage and looking the other way when she was being beaten by grown men.. the list goes on), so the Walk of Shame was a narrative technique to either change our opinions of her slightly, in the same way people have been swayed with Theon when he became Reek, or make them feel like she was being punished. Her 'official' crimes are what, having sex with other men outside of marriage? But we know, and the majority of the characters know, that she cuckolded Robert, the king, and so put the line of succession into jeopardy. She betrayed Ned's trust and many of the smallfolk of KL may blame her for his death.

Now people have been talking about the way she looks. Why? I don't understand this at all. I'm also sick to death of seeing the word 'demonized'. What the actual fuck. Cersei is an evil woman, a terrible mother, an abuser and she deserves to be punished for her crimes. Tyrion is a rapist according to some (one whore, was it? which is disputable, but anyway), and he's constantly been abused for being a dwarf, had his nose cut off in war, been kept prisoner twice for crimes he did not commit, laughed at, despised, all for his looks. But when he loses his temper and kills his father, who has always treated him like shit, and didn't let him inherit CR simply because he was a dwarf and his mother died while giving birth to him (neither of which are his fault) and the whore who betrayed him, he's a disgusting rapist who deserves everything he gets? No. Absolutely not. I know I've preached about perspective, and there may be things about Tyrion that you cannot forgive, acts he has committed, but it is completely unfair to demonize him, as has been done to him his whole life for nothing other than being born. Similarly it is unfair to acquit Cersei of any guilt simply because she, as a woman, was stripped naked and forced to walk in the streets, putting her in a vulnerable position and showing off what most women prefer to hide.

There's a reason that Cersei was made to do the WoS, and Margaery was not, when the crimes they were accused of were very similar, if not the same. The only difference is that us readers know Cersei is guilty, whereas we do not know about Margaery. Now, while I see all of that, I don't agree that it's a fitting punishment for any woman, as it is humiliating, degrading and just plain awful. It opened up the possibility of rape and physical abuse, which is utterly unforgivable, but it was necessary for the plot to move forward. All throughout her imprisonment, she was still scheming. She had to be shown as is she had repented and been punished enough for her to be able to go back to how she was, or near enough. So, no, the punishment did not fit the crime, but it was a successful way of humbling Cersei and (hopefully) showing her what she has done to others, or let be done to others while they were in her care. She cared nothing for anyone who got in her way, and let's not forget that she sent countless people to Qyburn to.. I don't even know what he does to them, but it's horrifying and makes me sick.