{Book Spolier} Ramsey is a No-go?

[Arkash]

Didn't it happen with Polliver, however? Polliver is not nearly as important as Ramsay though.

Polliver was officialy cast ! ;)

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

What if we've already seen Ramsay/Reek?

What if Ramsay is named Dagmer Cleftjaw?

Hear my reasoning befor skinning me:

1) Dagmer seems to be a different character than in the books in that he's not the older advisor given to Theon to oversee/help him. Also, he doesn't have that huge scar, so his second name most definately is not Cleftjaw in the show ;)

2) Dagmer seems to be an outsider with the Iron Islanders, as Black Lorren also goes to the ship without him. Also, with Black Lorren cast, they have another superfluous Iron Islander being able to stay behind at Torrhen's Square.

3) Dagmer plays Theon like a fiddle, putting the plan to take Torrhen's Square, but then leaving the coin to fall about taking Winterfell to Theon.

4) Dagmer knows the North quite well. He knows the approximate distances and he also believes that they can take Winterfell. In the books, that falls to Theon as he's the only one that lived in Winterfell and knows where to climb the walls with rope.

If that's not true, I do guess that Dagmer will advise Theon regarding the Millers Boys, that'd fit how he talks in the scene in this episode.

Now, the story twists I imagine to make this work:

I) Roose Bolton banishes Ramsay into exile for killing his true born son. Ramsay goes to the Iron Islands.

II) Ramsay/Dagmer can convince Theon that he wants revenge on the Starks and his Father so that's why he helps him and why he's able to get troops from the Dreadfort. The price for Ramsays cooperation would be the Dreadfort, something Theon would grant him.

III) Ramsay/Dagmer can convince Rodrik Cassel since he's from the North.

IV) Ramsay/Dagmer has a motivation to turn on Theon since he is a Northener and thinks low of the Ironborn.

The storyline benefits are clear as well:

You streamline two characters into one, one who is only used for exposition on the Ironborn (Dagmer) and you introduce one very important one earlier, thus giving the audience more time to remember him (Ramsay).

You keep the mixup shenaningans but bind them into the overall story without opening a wholly new one (Dreadfort, the Lady Ramsay tortures, etc. ..).

And most importantly, you have a big suprise for the hardcore fans since everybody has been doing a Reekgate and not concentrating on Dagmer. This way, they were able to cast him and still surprise everybody.

The only thing going against this theory is if the actor cast for Roose Bolton could conceivably be the father of the actor cast for Dagmer/Ramsay?

[Mendoza]

You don't need to bring in Ramsey until (if) the show gets to season 5, when AFFC/ADWD will get sorted into a tv show (good luck, show runners). All he's doing during Storm is flaying Theon at Dreadfort if I recall correctly. Have Roose give Robb a piece of Theon as they build to the Red Wedding just to remind people of Theon, and then you bring in fake Arya at the end of season 4. I've head theories that Ros would play the role of fake Arya (ugh, I know). Ramsey playing Theon's Reek this season isn't necessary. Roose can sack Winterfell.

[Nuttz]

What if we've already seen Ramsay/Reek?

What if Ramsay is named Dagmer Cleftjaw?

Hear my reasoning for skinning me:

1) Dagmer seems to be a different character than in the books in that he's not the older advisor given to Theon to oversee/help him. Also, he doesn't have that huge scar, so his second name most definately is not Cleftjaw in the show ;)

2) Dagmer seems to be an outsider with the Iron Islanders, as Black Lorren also goes to the ship without him. Also, with Black Lorren cast, they have another superfluous Iron Islander being able to stay behind at Torrhen's Square.

3) Dagmer plays Theon like a fiddle, putting the plan to take Torrhen's Square, but then leaving the coin to fall about taking Winterfell to Theon.

4) Dagmer knows the North quite well. He knows the approximate distances and he also believes that they can take Winterfell. In the books, that falls to Theon as he's the only one that lived in Winterfell and knows where to climb the walls with rope.

If that's not true, I do guess that Dagmer will advise Theon regarding the Millers Boys, that'd fit how he talks in the scene in this episode.

Now, the story twists I imagine to make this work:

I) Roose Bolton banishes Ramsay into exile for killing his true born son. Ramsay goes to the Iron Islands.

II) Ramsay/Dagmer can convince Theon that he wants revenge on the Starks and his Father so that's why he helps him and why he's able to get troops from the Dreadfort. The price for Ramsays cooperation would be the Dreadfort, something Theon would grant him.

III) Ramsay/Dagmer can convince Rodrik Cassel since he's from the North.

IV) Ramsay/Dagmer has a motivation to turn on Theon since he is a Northener and thinks low of the Ironborn.

The storyline benefits are clear as well:

You streamline two characters into one, one who is only used for exposition on the Ironborn (Dagmer) and you introduce one very important one earlier, thus giving the audience more time to remember him (Ramsay).

You keep the mixup shenaningans but bind them into the overall story without opening a wholly new one (Dreadfort, the Lady Ramsay tortures, etc. ..).

And most importantly, you have a big suprise for the hardcore fans since everybody has been doing a Reekgate and not concentrating on Dagmer. This way, they were able to cast him and still surprise everybody.

The only thing going against this theory is if the actor cast for Roose Bolton could conceivably be the father of the actor cast for Dagmer/Ramsay?

I actually really like this, has potential to be better than the book version I think, provided they pull it off. Just to possibly add to that theory, is this video here:

Alfie Allen is talking about a particular scene which he was told looked great by Dagmer's actor. When the interviewer asks who this actor plays, Alfie kind of pauses for a bit, as if to be careful he doens't give away a big plot twist. Of course, this just could be him trying to remember the character's name, but hey, it's something.

[House Snow]

I think that is an interesting theory. The other reason is that the actor they hired seems a little too accomplished to be playing Cleftjaw. And the way they did it in the show attacking was "someone elses" idea. Against it though is that the guy is kind of old to be bolton's son.

[Jamie Lannister]

As awesome as that is, it does seem a little... intricate. But eh.

Chris Finch from the Office being Dagmer always struck me as a little amusing. He was the most insufferable dick in the entire series, but Dagmer was a relatively okay chap. :(

Ramsay, though...

[victim]

I actually really like this, has potential to be better than the book version I think, provided they pull it off. Just to possibly add to that theory, is this video here:

Alfie Allen is talking about a particular scene which he was told looked great by Dagmer's actor. When the interviewer asks who this actor plays, Alfie kind of pauses for a bit, as if to be careful he doens't give away a big plot twist. Of course, this just could be him trying to remember the character's name, but hey, it's something.

Interesting... Why would the actor who plays Dagmer even have seen any of the Winterfell chapters when his character is supposedly left at Torrhen's Square? Dagmer's been changed a fair bit so he may just be someone who sticks with Theon throughout his little "Prince" escapade but you never know. It's highly unlikely, but interesting none the less.

He is a little too old to be Ramsay, and why would he be the first mate for the Sea-Bitch when he is an outsider himself?

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

I think it's pretty clear that Dagmer will not stay behind at Torrens Square even if he's just Dagmer. The TV show will not show the fight there since a) it's already happened and B) the taking of Winterfell is more exciting and there's only so much screentime. Why introduce Dagmer and have him say his name if he stays behind? You also need someone to go on a hunt with Theon and that could be of course both Black Lorren or Dagmer.

And of course we don't know how far they take the story this season...

I am also not sure why Dagmer would be so high on a Ironborn ship but I guess you could explain that away by "it's TV"... However he is a little bit too old and after I compared Dagmer and Roose I remain unconvinced...

But one refinement I can add to the theory: It's Eddard Stark who banishes Ramsay this way you can namedrop Ned again, you show his honor, you create a grudge for "Dagmer" to attak the Stark Boys and you leave a way open for Roose to accept Ramsay back as a son.

[Brienne the Beauty]

In TV, you can't see the thoughts of the POV character, so they need a character for Theon to talk to. That role seems to go to Dagmar. He seems to be a different character who just happens to have the name of a minor canon character, probably as a nod to the fans.

[Arkash]

I dont think Dagmer is Ramsay either, Dagmer is just there, as said in the previous post, so Theon can talk to him, the only way to retranscript inner monologues visually...

[Daktura Nurovaia]

Whether Robb asks Roose to retake Winterfell or not remains to be seen. I'm unsure what evidence there is on this. I can, however, see a change coming where Robb asks him to do this and perhaps Roose declares that Harrenhal is more important, leaving Winterfell to be retaken by his "bastard son", who is again only mentioned. Later on, we would see Theon being overwhelmed and Winterfell being sacked by an unnamed Bolton force, which the audience can only assume is being led by The Bastard of Bolton. Even non-readers should find this compelling and it also doesn't immediately out Roose as a villain, and stays true to the books in that way at least.

Given that Bolton cannot himself go north (what with the ironborn controlling the allegedly-inexpugnable-from-the-south Neck), I think it will play out somewhat like that. I, for once, believe the conclusion of Theon's arc will have some impact in the grand scheme of things and I can't see them leaving Ramsey out of the equation. Plus, I loved the Roose-Ramsay, Theon-Ramsay and Theon-Roose dynamics in ADWD and I really hope it doesn't get edited out, but hey this might be all just wishful thinking :(

[Daktura Nurovaia]

What if we've already seen Ramsay/Reek?

What if Ramsay is named Dagmer Cleftjaw?

Hear my reasoning befor skinning me:

1) Dagmer seems to be a different character than in the books in that he's not the older advisor given to Theon to oversee/help him. Also, he doesn't have that huge scar, so his second name most definately is not Cleftjaw in the show ;)

2) Dagmer seems to be an outsider with the Iron Islanders, as Black Lorren also goes to the ship without him. Also, with Black Lorren cast, they have another superfluous Iron Islander being able to stay behind at Torrhen's Square.

3) Dagmer plays Theon like a fiddle, putting the plan to take Torrhen's Square, but then leaving the coin to fall about taking Winterfell to Theon.

4) Dagmer knows the North quite well. He knows the approximate distances and he also believes that they can take Winterfell. In the books, that falls to Theon as he's the only one that lived in Winterfell and knows where to climb the walls with rope.

If that's not true, I do guess that Dagmer will advise Theon regarding the Millers Boys, that'd fit how he talks in the scene in this episode.

Now, the story twists I imagine to make this work:

I) Roose Bolton banishes Ramsay into exile for killing his true born son. Ramsay goes to the Iron Islands.

II) Ramsay/Dagmer can convince Theon that he wants revenge on the Starks and his Father so that's why he helps him and why he's able to get troops from the Dreadfort. The price for Ramsays cooperation would be the Dreadfort, something Theon would grant him.

III) Ramsay/Dagmer can convince Rodrik Cassel since he's from the North.

IV) Ramsay/Dagmer has a motivation to turn on Theon since he is a Northener and thinks low of the Ironborn.

The storyline benefits are clear as well:

You streamline two characters into one, one who is only used for exposition on the Ironborn (Dagmer) and you introduce one very important one earlier, thus giving the audience more time to remember him (Ramsay).

You keep the mixup shenaningans but bind them into the overall story without opening a wholly new one (Dreadfort, the Lady Ramsay tortures, etc. ..).

And most importantly, you have a big suprise for the hardcore fans since everybody has been doing a Reekgate and not concentrating on Dagmer. This way, they were able to cast him and still surprise everybody.

The only thing going against this theory is if the actor cast for Roose Bolton could conceivably be the father of the actor cast for Dagmer/Ramsay?

Interesting... Why would the actor who plays Dagmer even have seen any of the Winterfell chapters when his character is supposedly left at Torrhen's Square? Dagmer's been changed a fair bit so he may just be someone who sticks with Theon throughout his little "Prince" escapade but you never know. It's highly unlikely, but interesting none the less.

He is a little too old to be Ramsay, and why would he be the first mate for the Sea-Bitch when he is an outsider himself?

That would be a really interesting way of going around it but I have to admit that the age and rank issues do take the wind a bit out of my sails there :(

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

I dont think Dagmer is Ramsay either, Dagmer is just there, as said in the previous post, so Theon can talk to him, the only way to retranscript inner monologues visually...

Then what do we have Black Lorren for? They cast two just for that one scene? I do agree that it is a very distinct possibility, but the need for a retranscript of inner monologue doesn't mean that it has to be only that.

In TV, you can't see the thoughts of the POV character, so they need a character for Theon to talk to. That role seems to go to Dagmar. He seems to be a different character who just happens to have the name of a minor canon character, probably as a nod to the fans.

Yes I do agree. However, that's no argument that he can't be more than this. I don't say it's likely, it's just a possibility.

[Tadco26]

The best suggestion I have seen is to have Roose order his bastard to retake Winterfell and we just don't see the results until next season. We miss out on ramsay/Reek that way, which is unfortunate, but I struggle to see a way they could keep him in the story if he isn't cast yet. I do think not casting him this season will result in some pretty significant changes though since:

1) Not having an initial Reek makes Theon being called Reek less significant.

2) Reek is the one who suggests killing the miller's sons.

3) Reek goes to get "help" for Theon, and because he believes he is being helped he lets them in. The whole sense of lost and considering taking the black, to feeling saved, to what happens next will not be the same if Theon never considers Ramsay a savior.

4) The whole scene where Ramsay flips the tables on Theon when Theon is "rewarding" him for his help, and starts his decent from lord to Reek.

I guess we will find out in the next few weeks.

[Giskard Reventlov]

What if we've already seen Ramsay/Reek?

What if Ramsay is named Dagmer Cleftjaw?

..........................

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This could very well be true. It seems very plausible to me. Especially since the producers started to merge characters.

In that case, Roose would probably be responsible for things that Ramsey does in the books (in ADwD)

[catstory]

Someone is another thread suggested that Reek might have been shown as a cloaked figure in the back of the Winterfell hall in the scene where Bran sends the orphan boys to go help the farmer. Did anyone else notice that?

[Magic 8 Ball]

I felt a very strong vibe that Dagmer was going to be revealed as Ramsay until I came to this thread.

The reasons :

1. No announced casting of Reek this season just doesn't seem to make sense

2. Harder to play up the redemption of Theon if someone didn't plant the idea of killing the Miller's boys

3. Dagmer isn't recognized by Theon in the show for some reason

4. Dagmer is sympathetic to Theon when nobody else is, and he seems distant from the other Ironborn.

5. Dagmer's sympathy seems to be motivated by having a leading conversation with Theon to give him the Idea of taking Winterfell.

6. If Dagmer were really Dagmer wouldn't he be smart enough to know they could take Winterfell, but never hold it?

7. No real evidence of Asha seeming to recognize Dagmer.

The age is wrong for Dagmer to be Ramsay, but this doesn't bother me so much because the actor at least looks young enough to be the son of the actor playing Roose.

It would be a brilliant stroke to "out-Reek" the book readers by giving them a shock Ramsay reveal.

The only major issue I see right now is the question of Dagmer being the first mate to Theon. That would be a pretty deep infiltration of the rather alien Ironborn culture.

Does he actually state in the show that he is the first mate? If not, I'm still sniffing Reek on this one.

Medium level complications would be needing familiarity enough with the Ironborn to pass muster on cultural issues, mannerisms, way of speaking, and developing the level of sailing abilities on their ships to not look like a flayed man out of water.

[The Second Hand]

They don't announce every cast member, especially one that will only have a minimal part this season. So no, Dagmer probably isn't our Ramsay. It doesn't make a lick of sense, either, considering that Ramsay eventually rallies the North (how could Dagmer ever do that?).

[ckongo]

This season the writers have been gradually diverging from the books. No Reeds? Probaby no Ramsay? Will we even recognize the series by season 6 or 7 when Ramsay would otherwise become a prominent villian in the north?

[Magic 8 Ball]

I just rewatched the scene, and Dagmer does say he is Theon's first mate, he kind of mumbles it so it's easy to miss.

I guess that means he's not Ramsay, but in the meantime he could be the one who comes up with the idea to kill the Miller's kids.

Then they could have Ramsay show up next season, get the audience rooting for him in some kind of revenge fantasy, then gradually have their stomachs turned realizing what a sick "bastard" he really is.