Vote: Who was the father of Ashara's child?

[Cheese Pudding]

Brandon

[Knight Of Winter]

Voting for Ned

[ServantOnIce]

I am going for Lord Eddard . . . . and I am also in the Queen Cersei camp that Jon Snow is Ashara Dayne and Eddard's child . . .

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Maury Povich might need to conduct a paternity test.

[The Black Wolf]

I can't decide between Ned or Brandon... It fits better with Brandon's personality (from what we've been told, I think), but I do believe Ned and Ashara had feelings for eachother and Ned was quite young at the time. If it was Ned, I think it would also add to why he didn't feel it was too much of a horrible lie to say that Jon was his bastard (assuming R+L=J, of course), as he knew that he really had fathered a bastard before... I don't know... I'm torn :dunno:

However I really don't think it was Selmy because of the way he thinks/talks about it in ADWD...

[Fire Eater]

Plus, notice Barristan just says Stark instead of the full name, meaning it's intended to mislead the reader, and get him/her to think that it was Ned who impregnated Ashara. That sounds unlike Ned's character; the father is Brandon, it wouldn't be the first time he took the maidenhead of a highborn woman, just ask Lady Dustin. According to Meera's tale, Ashara danced with Ned because Brandon asked her to.

[corbon]

Who "dishonored" Ashara is an interesting mystery.

Based upon inferences I have drawn from the text, I believe that Ned and Ashara had romantic feelings for each other.

Thus, I don't think it was Ned who "dishonored" Ashara at Harrenhall.

What inferences?

Do you have more than "the shy wolf danced with her" (as did several others) and rumours that relate closely to the post ToJ sequence, rather than Harrenhal sequence?

I also don't think the stillborn child she allegedly had could have been the result of her being "dishonored" at Harrenhall because of the timeline.

Harrenhall occurred roughly one year before Robert's Rebellion. Thus, Ashara's child would have been stillborn 3 months before the rebellion started.

Also, Robert's rebellion lasted roughly 1 year. Further, the fight at the TOJ between Ned and the KG happened at the end of the rebellion.

Finally, we know that Ashara was alive and well at Starfall when Ned Stark traveled there to return Dawn to the Dayne family. It was not until Ned left that Ashara allegedly killed herself.

Thus, her child was (allegedly) stillborn 15 months before she supposedly killed herself by jumping out of a tower into the sea.

Two points here.

First, she only 'supposedly' killed herself. If she didn't kill herself then the timing of the stillborn is irrelevant.

Second, it is only Barristan musing, guessing, mentally exploring ideas, wondering if losing the baby was part of the reason why she killed herself. So it isn't reasonable to discount the baby based on timeline because if she killed herself Barristan wonders if maybe it was partly because of losing the baby. That is pretty tortuous...

There's nothing to suggest it was Brandon, except for the fact he slept with one woman. And if Ashara killed herself with grief shortly after her child died, the timeline doesn't fit, because she died after the war was over, long after Brandon died.

Actually there are several things, but lets leave that for the appropriate threads. Note that we are talking 'suggestive' not 'proven'.

And again its if she killed herself with grief, maybe it was partly because of Brandon dying. And losing her baby, and her friend Elia , and her liege lord Rhaegar, and now the final straw, losing her brother. If she even suicided at all.

And, of course, two minor characters long dead before the story starts having a stillborn child is not a big revelation, it's just meh.

Not entirely meh. Its a important little revelation in the possible revealing of Lemore as Ashara.

Everything points to Ned, who is big enough of cours, and makes Ashara storyline tragic: she falls in love with this noble Northern lord, gets pregnant (and frankly, hanging out with Robert for so long and in such a young age, it's not out of the question for Ned to not be a virgin at time of the marriage) but then war comes and they are in opposite sides. The child is stillborn, and when Ned meets her again, he's married to someone else (because he had to), has another bastard with him (not his, but she doesn't know that), and just killed her brother (in self-defense), so she kills herself.

Plus, it makes a parallel to Robb's storyline: both Ned and Robb go to war to avenge their fathers, both are forced to marry Riverlands ladies to win support, both fall in love with girls on the enemy's side; Ned chooses duty and wins the war, later on has many children and a great marriage, Robb chooses love and suffers a tragic fate.

Even less points to Ned than Brandon.

Sum total?

- a single dance, which Brandon procured for him and several other men also had

- post-Jon rumours which clearly follow Ned taking Jon from Starfall as his bastard while Ashara kills herself. What the heck sort of rumours would anyone expect from such an event?

- Ned shutting down Catelyn's enquiry about Ashara, because it is an enquiry into Jon's birth, nothing to do with Ashra except peripherially. "I will hear where you heard that name" only follows Ned's emphasis on Jon and is all about shutting down the rumour and protecting Jon's secret, not about protecting Ashara.

And Asharas story is just as tragic, in a different way if it was Brandon.

Loves one brother, but he's an ass and uses and dumps her, appeals to the next brother to help her (maybe) and he'd (maybe) like to but cannot, much. Then she loses the baby, her lover is brutally murdered, her leige family destroyed and to top it all off the nice brother kills her brother but acts totally honourably about the whole situation.

Anyway, my vote for Brandon, though other possibilities still exist.

[Ferrous]

Aerys

The kid is Aegon

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Brandon Stark.

[Lady Kraken]

Brandon Stark

[Catastrophe]

It's clearly and obviously Ned. I don't know why so many people have trouble believing that.

[ARYa_Nym]

Timeline wise I think she could have been with someone at Harrenhal who dishonored her and looked to a Stark later on. Perhaps she was with both Brandon and Ned.

I'm skeptical if Barriston has his info right though.

How does he know for sure that she was pregnant? How did he know it was stillborn? How did he know it was a girl?

Yes he was in the KG with Arthur Dayne but that doesn't mean that Arthur was his source.

Also what exactly is the time frame for "soon" when he says that she killed herself soon after from the grief?

[Jolene Brown]

It's clearly and obviously Ned. I don't know why so many people have trouble believing that.

Because it's clearly and obviously Brandon! :)

[Winterfell is Burning]

What inferences?

Do you have more than "the shy wolf danced with her" (as did several others) and rumours that relate closely to the post ToJ sequence, rather than Harrenhal sequence?

Two points here.

First, she only 'supposedly' killed herself. If she didn't kill herself then the timing of the stillborn is irrelevant.

Second, it is only Barristan musing, guessing, mentally exploring ideas, wondering if losing the baby was part of the reason why she killed herself. So it isn't reasonable to discount the baby based on timeline because if she killed herself Barristan wonders if maybe it was partly because of losing the baby. That is pretty tortuous...

Actually there are several things, but lets leave that for the appropriate threads. Note that we are talking 'suggestive' not 'proven'.

And again its if she killed herself with grief, maybe it was partly because of Brandon dying. And losing her baby, and her friend Elia , and her liege lord Rhaegar, and now the final straw, losing her brother. If she even suicided at all.

Not entirely meh. Its a important little revelation in the possible revealing of Lemore as Ashara.

Even less points to Ned than Brandon.

Sum total?

- a single dance, which Brandon procured for him and several other men also had

- post-Jon rumours which clearly follow Ned taking Jon from Starfall as his bastard while Ashara kills herself. What the heck sort of rumours would anyone expect from such an event?

- Ned shutting down Catelyn's enquiry about Ashara, because it is an enquiry into Jon's birth, nothing to do with Ashra except peripherially. "I will hear where you heard that name" only follows Ned's emphasis on Jon and is all about shutting down the rumour and protecting Jon's secret, not about protecting Ashara.

And Asharas story is just as tragic, in a different way if it was Brandon.

Loves one brother, but he's an ass and uses and dumps her, appeals to the next brother to help her (maybe) and he'd (maybe) like to but cannot, much. Then she loses the baby, her lover is brutally murdered, her leige family destroyed and to top it all off the nice brother kills her brother but acts totally honourably about the whole situation.

Anyway, my vote for Brandon, though other possibilities still exist.

You're forgetting that we hear from a member of House Dayne, coincidentally or not called Ned, that Ashara and Ned were in love. Granted, he wasn't alive at the time, but he heard it from Ashara's sister, that was. Why would she lie about it? And she had Ashara herself as the most likely source.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think Allyria Dayne's source could have been Ned Dayne's father who maybe was told this from Ashara herself. He's dead now but he obviously died sometime after Robert's Rebellion.

Their story could be the truth or it could the Dayne's cover story.

[corbon]

You're forgetting that we hear from a member of House Dayne, coincidentally or not called Ned, that Ashara and Ned were in love. Granted, he wasn't alive at the time, but he heard it from Ashara's sister, that was. Why would she lie about it? And she had Ashara herself as the most likely source.

Not forgetting. As you know (unless I'm misremembering you for someone else, in which case sorry), Allyria is no more likely to be a better source of information than Cersei. She might have been alive at the time, but if so was very likely a very small child (which pretty much rules out Ashara as the likely source), given she has been affianced to Berric Dondarrion for four years, but not yet married. Why would she even know?, is a better question than why would she lie, which I have incidentally answered repeatedly in the appropriate treads.

[kephv]

Brandon. I find it hard to believe Ned wouldn't have thought about her once if he had done it.

[Babeldygob]

Brandon Stark

[NorthRemembers]

Brandon. If the rumor that is was a Stark is to be believed, then it fits what we know of Brandon more than Ned.

[talleyban]

Ned

He gets a child on her. She returns to Starfall. He asks her where Lyanna is, Ashara tells her where Arthur is located. Ned returns to Starfall, tells her he killed Dayne and that he has a bastard. Ashara flips out, her lover, baby's daddy just told her he abused her trust in him and killed her brother and that he also has been slaying some other woman and has a bastard. Sure, Cat was married out of duty, Ashara can understand that, but she was supposed to be Ned's true love and he got some other wench pregnant!" So, Ashara jumps..