R+L=J v. 26

[facetree]

Ah, can't we have a generic "family traits" thread and in the sections, we can list their family traits-but I digress. It's probably up there in the wiki anyways, where no one bothers to read if their theories are true :/

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

It is getting off slightly off topic. But for anyone who thinks R+L=J somehow makes things too fairytale, it's worth pointing out that a tragic death for Jon screws with tropes sufficiently. And If Jon dies for good, I'd see it as being in the final book, not immediately after whatever kind of resurrection/resuscitation is coming.

I just want to point out that there is an island covered in weirwoods conveniently placed near the location that Rhaegar and Lyanna met. There may be a reason for that, like to provide a location for Rhaegar and Lyanna to elope or conceive a child where Bran or Bloodraven could see. I'm not sure of the extent to which this has been discussed before.

This is an interesting thought. I haven't seen too much discussion of how the weirwood network opens up all kinds of secrets to Bran (though there's been talk about the few events he witnesses in Winterfell's godswood.) I can almost see George killing Howland Reed before he says anything just to taunt the fans a bit, but then leaving Jon's parentage for Bran to reveal.

As a firm believer that Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of a weirwood, I'm convinced Bran will see it eventually. ;)

Ah, can't we have a generic "family traits" thread and in the sections, we can list their family traits-but I digress. It's probably up there in the wiki anyways, where no one bothers to read if their theories are true :/

I always wonder why people don't use the wiki. I read the entire wiki, including chapter summaries from the books. It's a wonderful tool in understanding the theories and characters.

[Dr. Pepper]

I agree, and i said i hate the theory ( but i didn't say that its a wrong theory)

Maybe Jon is really R+L'son..I dislike this theory, but my real problem is that some people say, Jon is going to rule westeros. I doubt Jon will become a king. We all know that asoiaf is not a fairy tale

There are people who don't know about R+L=J or who don't believe it still want Jon to rule Westeros. People want all sorts of characters to become king or queen of Westeros and it usually has little to do with their parentage.

[7V3N]

CPT: Aerys raped Lyanna at Harrenhall, Rhaegar found out and crowned her the queen of love and beauty (or w/e) to sort of console her, then when he found out she was pregnant, he took her to protect her honor. Complete CPT :)

[Dragonfish]

CPT: Aerys raped Lyanna at Harrenhall, Rhaegar found out and crowned her the queen of love and beauty (or w/e) to sort of console her, then when he found out she was pregnant, he took her to protect her honor. Complete CPT :)

Harrenhal took place about a year before the war. So it's not so much a crackpot theory (which is what I assume "CPT" means), but rather an impossible theory. :)

[facetree]

CPT: Aerys raped Lyanna at Harrenhall, Rhaegar found out and crowned her the queen of love and beauty (or w/e) to sort of console her, then when he found out she was pregnant, he took her to protect her honor. Complete CPT :)

That wouldn't work with the timeline unless Lyanna could be magically pregnant for about 2 or 3 years. Harrenhall was about a year or two before Robert's Rebellion, and that war started about a year before the sack of King's landing, so that would make a total of 2 or 3 years of pregnancy, which is ridiculous.

Edit: Ninja'd!

[Alia of the knife]

I feel that Ned has a statue of Lyanna in the crypts, because he hid something there for Jon. I also feel that Bran and Co. hiding in the crypts, because no one would think to look for them there, is another clue.

I also think that statue is a nod to Lyannas status- a Princess.

Wasn't it said the only ones who actually had statues were the Kings of Winter who would later become Lords of Winterfell?

I don't think Ned put that statue just for sentimental reasons. ;)

[7V3N]

Haha like I said, CPT. No thought at all. I've accepted R+L=J as fact.

Also, I agree that Jon will never sit on the Iron Throne. Jon's destiny is in the North.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

I also think that statue is a nod to Lyannas status- a Princess.

Wasn't it said the only ones who actually had statues were the Kings of Winter who would later become Lords of Winterfell?

I don't think Ned put that statue just for sentimental reasons. ;)

Ned also had a statue built for Brandon and he was never a lord or king. Ned said that Brandon died before Rickard so the lordship went from Rickard straight to Ned.

It's possible that Ned built statues for both of them so Lyanna's wouldn't stand out to anyone or it's like Bran said and Ned had that statues built because he loved them so much.

[ThinPaperWings]

I've seen people arguing Aerys as Jon's father following the Alfie Allen Affair. In addition to the timeline thing, I'd find it out of character (she got the wolf blood, like Arya) for her not to wound Aerys in some noticeable, albeit cosmetic way if he was attempting to rape her. And how and why could she get alone with Aerys without her family knowing? And why would she hide out with Rhaegar instead of letting her family know what happened?

[Alia of the knife]

Ned also had a statue built for Brandon and he was never a lord or king. Ned said that Brandon died before Rickard so the lordship went from Rickard straight to Ned.

It's possible that Ned built statues for both of them so Lyanna's wouldn't stand out to anyone or it's like Bran said and Ned had that statues built because he loved them so much.

But, Brandon was the presumptive Heir- first born son.

Had he lived, he would have been Lord instead of Ned, and while Ned most likely loved his Brother from a loyal, and familial standpoint, I do think there was some tension between them, especially if the speculation is true about Brandon and Ashara.

Ned may have spent a good deal of his time going behind Brandon to "clean up" after him.

Nonetheless, homage to him would have still been done.

[Alia of the knife]

I've seen people arguing Aerys as Jon's father following the Alfie Allen Affair. In addition to the timeline thing, I'd find it out of character (she got the wolf blood, like Arya) for her not to wound Aerys in some noticeable, albeit cosmetic way if he was attempting to rape her. And how and why could she get alone with Aerys without her family knowing? And why would she hide out with Rhaegar instead of letting her family know what happened?

I agree, if anything I think if it was not Brandon Stark who dishonored/seduced Ashara Dayne, I think if Aerys raped anyone at Harrenhal, it was Ashara- which might have been the catalyst for Arthur Dayne to step outside his KG role to possibly coup with Rhaegar.

I know they were best friends, but Rhaegar was going to be King eventually, so no need to push it now unless something happened that made Arthur get off the fence.

[Ygrain]

I agree, if anything I think if it was not Brandon Stark who dishonored/seduced Ashara Dayne, I think if Aerys raped anyone at Harrenhal, it was Ashara- which might have been the catalyst for Arthur Dayne to step outside his KG role to possibly coup with Rhaegar.

I know they were best friends, but Rhaegar was going to be King eventually, so no need to push it now unless something happened that made Arthur get off the fence.

A great catch!

Concerning the convenient proximity of the Isle of Faces to Harrenhall, I'd like to point out the speculations from one of the previous threads that Lyanna may have stayed at Harrenhall after the tourney as a ward of the Whents, as a company to their daughter and to be schooled in the gentler ways, which would be expected from her once she married Robert.

ETA:Could someone post a link where GRRM discusses Aragorn? It is kinda unfair to complain that there is no learning or character development for him when the guy spent the first 80-90 years of his life off the screen, so to say

[Alia of the knife]

A great catch!

Concerning the convenient proximity of the Isle of Faces to Harrenhall, I'd like to point out the speculations from one of the previous threads that Lyanna may have stayed at Harrenhall after the tourney as a ward of the Whents, as a company to their daughter and to be schooled in the gentler ways, which would be expected from her once she married Robert.

ETA:Could someone post a link where GRRM discusses Aragorn? It is kinda unfair to complain that there is no learning or character development for him when the guy spent the first 80-90 years of his life off the screen, so to say

Thanks! :)

Lyanna staying at Harrenhal makes sense.

That also led into another speculation that KG, Oswell Whent may have nursed a crush for Lyanna as well, (perhaps seeing her at his brothers home before all the "hoopla"), and out of jealousy, later betrayed R+L in some way.

I also tend to think that Lyanna may have been better able to handle herself with Aerys, than say Ashara, who was not a fighter in the very physical way Lyanna would have been.

I'd say it's been awhile that Aerys performed in any tourneys, so if we think Rhaegar would have had a hard time with Lyanna if it wasn't consensual, then Aerys could really have gotten his ass handed to him by Lyanna.

[nothatso]

ETA:Could someone post a link where GRRM discusses Aragorn? It is kinda unfair to complain that there is no learning or character development for him when the guy spent the first 80-90 years of his life off the screen, so to say

I don't recall where I read it, so no link from me unfortunately. Regardless, I don't think it's an unfair thing to say at all. What he did off-page doesn't matter, only the things that are described on page do. You can make all of the inferences you want, but only what the author wrote is canonical. Many people can't draw satisfaction from a story or mystery if its solution is left too open to personal interperetation (like, say, the ending of LOST), and unwritten character backstories or those lacking in detail are not much different. If Martin wasn't satisfied because Tolkein hadn't provided a detailed enough account of who Aragorn was before the actual events of the trilogy, within the trilogy itself, I don't think that's unfair.

[K.C.]

IIRC they concluded Ned isn't the father (the honor thing, how Cat doesn't know, etc) and he never called Jon "son", but said "you're my blood". This, and they put toghether Robert tantrum in the crypts of winterfell and Ned elusive answers in the kingsroad. I'm not sure if they know about Raeghar, but they know about Lyanna.

have in mind that they squeeze every word and every reaction to make their "spitballs" and most of the time they're correct!

I can see how they'd get Lyanna as the mother from the TV show. Once you have that I suppose it's not much of a stretch to say "that guy who kidnapped her or something" (as Dr. Pepper's sister would put it!) is the dad.

Personally, I was only vaguely aware of the possibility when I watched season 1 as an Unsullied. Then I read AGoT and had the usual epiphany where you think you're clever for seeing it only to realize everyone else saw it too.

[The guy from the Vale]

Wow. Love the 'Aerys raped Ashara' idea. Sadly, we simply know too little about the incident to really claim any theory was supported by the text, but at least it's certainly not contradicted by it. And it does indeed give a reasonfor Arthur (and perhaps even Rhaegar) to join/plan a coup.

[Alia of the knife]

Wow. Love the 'Aerys raped Ashara' idea. Sadly, we simply know too little about the incident to really claim any theory was supported by the text, but at least it's certainly not contradicted by it. And it does indeed give a reasonfor Arthur (and perhaps even Rhaegar) to join/plan a coup.

I tend to lean more towards Brandon seducing and then dumping Ashara, but exactly my thoughts.

For whatever Rhaegar was planning, whether it was an innocent, "meet and greet" with the Lords of the land at Harrenhal, or something more substantial, Dayne seemed to be involved, and the violation his sister, might be the catalyst that drove Arthur to support Rhaegar immediately, and politically

I had just wondered what made Arthur Dayne allow himself be part of the scandal that was R+L, unless the TOJ was also headquarters for Rhaegar to make plans to deal with his Father as well as keep Lyanna securely in place as his wife when they returned to KL

[Nymeria's]

So for this to be like Luke Skywalker, R would have had to marry L. When would he have done that? Those brief moments after Gregor killed Elia? Could he have married L while he was still married to Elia? Does bigamy prevent J from being a bastard? I would love to see a bastard sit on the Iron Throne! Jon has amazing skills in bringing people together, and tearing them apart. A crow says King.

[Dragonfish]

So for this to be like Luke Skywalker, R would have had to marry L. When would he have done that? Those brief moments after Gregor killed Elia? Could he have married L while he was still married to Elia? Does bigamy prevent J from being a bastard? I would love to see a bastard sit on the Iron Throne! Jon has amazing skills in bringing people together, and tearing them apart. A crow says King.

Rhaegar couldn't have married Lyanna after Elia was killed, since he was dead by then. He could, however, have married her polygamously early on in the war, and a child from their marriage would theoretically be legitimate (though pragmatically speaking, there probably would have been some protests from the other houses).