Why all the vitriol against book 4 and book 5 on Amazon.com?

[ab aeterno]

@ kazad

I imagine all will be forgiven if these end up being gradual build ups and set ups ready for a hectic final two or three books. How awesome would that be?!

[Reznak mo Reznak]

Are you saying someone who gives ADWD a one-star rating is an idiot? I wonder if people who don't recommend ADWD say the same thing of the readers who adore the book.

People have different tastes, if someone likes something you don't, it doesn't make them stupid. And vice versa.

No, I was commenting on the OPs confusion about apparently smart people going off on nasty sounding rants. Kal Pono was surprised that people who sounded articulate would do that. My point is that smart people can be just as stupid and emotional as people who aren't so smart.

Having said that, I would actually say that a one star rating is excessive to the point of absurdity. 1 star is the lowest possible rating. Anyone who has read the series and hates the 4th bookt hat much is really jsut reacting to their own expectations. The quality of the writing is pretty much the same, even if the book is less eventful. Maybe it takes a dip in the ratings for some people, but I disregard anyone who really starts hating on it. Cuz those type of people are usually waiting to hate on something anyway.

[Florina Laufeyson]

"The Vampire Armand", or anything that's very poorly written.

To be fair, that one didnt get badly written until the last quarter of the book. I think that was around the time Anne Rice decided to kick her editors to the curb. lol

I liked both books. Seeing a different viewpoint on the story was interesting. People argue that giving Cersei a POV was a bad move. I dont think so because her POVs were so damn funny and entertaining. All those Greyjoy chapters are a drag but it doesnt take too much away from the story to me. I thought the idea of parallel POVs in the last two books was cool.

[Alexander Stark]

I understand the negativity to Feast as it is the slowest pace and it isnt exciting at all on the first read and is missing most of the best characters (hugely enjoyed 2nd and 3rd read throughs)

with Dance, sure it cliffhangered, and it asks more questions, and did take a LONG time to come out, but i still felt it a great read, so i was just as confused when i was seeing reviews for it

[Sand Snake No. 9]

There are 2,270 reviews of the hardcover edition of ADWD at amazon.com. The reviews are rather evenly distributed among the five categories, with the most being 5 star at 531, followed by two star at 514. A lot of the 5-star reviews are nothing more than "it's great, read it!", which I don't find valuable at all, and which, for all I know, could be written by the mail boys at Bantam books. I'd rather read a well-thought-out, or even a bitterly funny, negative review than a positive blurb.

IMO, the negative reviews don't mention anything that hasn't been discussed on this forum with the same vehemence: "Where do whores go?", Dany loves Daario (too damn much), smart characters suddenly gone stupid, dragon misuse or abuse, the "plucky lady-dwarf sidekick" Penny, the sudden and evidently unwelcome appearance of Aegon, all the cliff-hangers, endless meandering, "exotic" but boring Meereen, all those names containing x, y & z, constant repetition of certain phrases, etc., etc. In fact, I believe that more problems with AFFC and ADWD have been picked on in these forums more than anywhere else.

The thing that interests me is how one reader can complain about all those elements and give the book a 1-star rating, while another reader criticizing the exact same things will give the book a 3- or 4-star rating. Clearly, one's enjoyment of any book is very subjective and therefore one shouldn't judge the judgment while feeling free to disagree with it.

I think some readers were trying to send a message with their negative reviews. GRRM is unlikely to get those messages (I doubt if he reads amazon.com reviews; I wouldn't if I were he) but I hope his publishers and editors get some, especially in regard to proof reading and other more-or-less technical problems. Correct spelling seems like a minimum requirement for a major book release, no?

I was disappointed in ADWD because I think that there should be some payoff via resolutions or reveals 5000 pages into a series, and instead I only got more questions and situations that need to be resolved. There were, however, some great bits – if the book consisted only of the Northern POVs and Arya in Braavos I bet this would have been a 5-star book across the board. I continue to read because I'm invested in certain characters and I want to see certain bad guys spanked, and spanked hard. I hope to see something I'm expecting in TWOW, but if the wait for that volume is too long, and the payoff too little, I might just throw up my hands and post a 2-star review myself.

[ab aeterno]

There are 2,270 reviews of the hardcover edition of ADWD at amazon.com. The reviews are rather evenly distributed among the five categories, with the most being 5 star at 531, followed by two star at 514. A lot of the 5-star reviews are nothing more than "it's great, read it!", which I don't find valuable at all, and which, for all I know, could be written by the mail boys at Bantam books. I'd rather read a well-thought-out, or even a bitterly funny, negative review than a positive blurb.

Just to point out, a number of media outlets have looked into this sort of thing recently, exposing a number of publishers and agents who write positive reviews to boost book sales. From those who have been identified, the culprits tend to write longer and more detailed reviews, rather than very brief ones.

[Lady Olenna]

Ive never understood the negativity toward AFfC. I loved the book. I loved getting inside the Lannisters heads and taking a small break from the Starks.

I also loved that we were shown the post war devastation and all the awfulness it brings. The small things like bodies in the water and how people survived that kind of environment. And the brutal ugliness of it all.

I'm looking forward to yet another reread. Each time I reread AFFC I appreciate it more and more.

[ab aeterno]

Ive never understood the negativity toward AFfC. I loved the book. I loved getting inside the Lannisters heads and taking a small break from the Starks.

I also loved that we were shown the post war devastation and all the awfulness it brings. The small things like bodies in the water and how people survived that kind of environment. And the brutal ugliness of it all.

I'm looking forward to yet another reread. Each time I reread AFFC I appreciate it more and more.

That might even be the case on my re-read. It certainly got better towards the end. At first I disliked it because too many of my favorite characters were left out, and I didn't like the new ones. While I still miss my favorites from that book, many of the new POVs have grown on me quite a lot. I still think it has pacing issues though.

[Independent George]

It amazes me that people expect AFFC and ADWD to progress at the same pace as ASOS. The fact is the war of the five kings is over, the wildling are defeated at the wall, Dany's has won her city. I don't see GRRM could have taken the story at that point to keep the story moving at the same pace the previous books, the way I see the world GRRM has created is at like a game of Cyvasse. However at the end of ASOS most the pieces have been flung from the board and GRRM has to spend the next two books repositioning all the pieces.

If it were just FFC repositioning the pieces, I wouldn't complain. But I think nearly 2,000 pages of 'repositioning' goes beyond excessive, and into self-indulgent.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Just to point out, a number of media outlets have looked into this sort of thing recently, exposing a number of publishers and agents who write positive reviews to boost book sales. From those who have been identified, the culprits tend to write longer and more detailed reviews, rather than very brief ones.

I did read about the guy who got paid for writing positive reviews. I wish I had thought of that! :lol: (Although I'm sure the getting caught part wasn't much fun.) But clearly longer reviews are more worthwhile, wouldn't you agree?

For the record, I enjoyed AFFC more than ADWD. At least, at the end of AFFC, I could see how the Lannisters and their royal Dynasty were set up for a devastating fall -- Cersei in prison, the BWB basically in control of the Riverlands, Tom O'Sevens in Riverrun, Edmure on the rode to Casterly Rock (though BWB territory), the hostages at the Twins ordered to King's Landing (though BWB territory), Sansa getting the hell out of the Eyrie, etc.

ADWD did something similar for the North, and it marked a turning of the tide in favor of the Starks which made me happy because I'm Team Stark all the way. But oh, oh, oh, Dany! Sure she got on a dragon and flew, but she flew away from the action, instead of toward it. How long will she be screwing around with Khals and the Dosh Khaleen, and when she's done with that she gets to go back to Meereen and do whatever with Daario, Victorion and Tyrion, dither about getting on Victorions' ships, the Harpy, her "children," and so forth. I can easily see her spending the entirety of TWOW in Essos -- noooooooooo!

I also hated, HATED, that Jon "died" just as things were starting to move at the Wall and Winterfell. A lot of readers think that he will be spending some quality time in/as Ghost, and many of them are dreading that development. Me? I'm hoping Jon does become Ghost, that Ghost/Jon rips out a few select throats at Castle Black, and that he gets his fluffy white tail to Winterfell where the action is. Anything to get Jon away from that frickin' useless Night's Watch and the Wall.

But I'm going off topic (except for voicing some of the same complaints one will find in the amazon.com reviews). I apologize.

[KhaleesiDany]

Since this is a series and GRRM says he knows where it is going, its almost like one looooooong book. In that case, 4 and 5 are the middle by any account. There won't be much resolution there. I think a lot of it has to do with the long wait, and the fact that unlike AGOT or the first three books, you couldn't read these and put them down when you were done and say "Well I dont know if I like the theme/that wasn't especially satisfying since all the good guys lost, but there was a story there." These end on cliffhangers making you want to read the next books, which does not exist yet, so it's frustrating. There's just not much resolution in these books.

[King of Swords]

You know, I've noticed that anytime you have any kind of series, whether it be video games, books, TV shows, etc that run for a long time, the later additions are usually less well liked compared to what came before. Mostly this is because while waiting, people inevitably get their own ideas about what should happen, and when those ideas don't come to pass, it's a problem with the book itself for those people.

[ab aeterno]

Since this is a series and GRRM says he knows where it is going, its almost like one looooooong book. In that case, 4 and 5 are the middle by any account. There won't be much resolution there. I think a lot of it has to do with the long wait, and the fact that unlike AGOT or the first three books, you couldn't read these and put them down when you were done and say "Well I dont know if I like the theme/that wasn't especially satisfying since all the good guys lost, but there was a story there." These end on cliffhangers making you want to read the next books, which does not exist yet, so it's frustrating. There's just not much resolution in these books.

Yep, those are more or less my feelings. These aren't like Harry Potter, micro stories within a macro story, this is one long narrative split into volumes.

[ab aeterno]

I did read about the guy who got paid for writing positive reviews. I wish I had thought of that! :lol: (Although I'm sure the getting caught part wasn't much fun.) But clearly longer reviews are more worthwhile, wouldn't you agree?

Yeah, I definitely agree. I was more lamenting that too many of the people who genuinely love books or products just say "great product, Totally recommend it," while those people with an ulterior motive write long and detailed reviews. Thankfully, I think the balance is still in favor of those who write long, detailed but honest reviews.

[Thlayli]

Some people just assume that there is something wrong with people who don't recommend the book, which is generally what a one-star means. They're buffoons, being absurd, not serious fantasy fans or have ulterior motives. Many people didn't like the book at all for multitudes of reasons. So what? Do people get so invested with the series that any perceived attack on the books is seen as a condemnation of the fan's character?

Plenty of card-carrying members of the scifi/fantasy fandom didn't think ADWD was the best thing since sliced bread in the recent Hugo awards. ADWD didn't win. It finished last. With the exclusion of Ready Player One, some argue that ADWD shouldn't have been nominated in the first place.

For any who got a little perturbed by those sentences: relax. It's just one book in a series with a lot of promise.

[ab aeterno]

Some people just assume that there is something wrong with people who don't recommend the book, which is generally what a one-star means. They're buffoons, being absurd, not serious fantasy fans or have ulterior motives. Many people didn't like the book at all for multitudes of reasons. So what? Do people get so invested with the series that any perceived attack on the books is seen as a condemnation of the fan's character?

Plenty of card-carrying members of the scifi/fantasy fandom didn't think ADWD was the best thing since sliced bread in the recent Hugo awards. ADWD didn't win. It finished last. With the exclusion of Ready Player One, some argue that ADWD shouldn't have been nominated in the first place.

For any who got a little perturbed by those sentences: relax. It's just one book in a series with a lot of promise.

Personally, and this is only an opinion, but I hate how people 1* things they don't like. I think that 1* is for things that either don't work or do what they say or are just bad. Even if you didn't like the book, when judged against other books, is it really that bad? Is it worse than Twilight? Or Fifty Shades of Grey? Or is it just poor compared to the previous books in the series. Even if you didn't enjoy it, I think that objectively you would have to say that, at the very least, it is a decent book. Though people would doubtless disagree. Heck, some people 1* Great Expectations...

[Rouge et Bleu]

The first time I read ADWD I was colossally disappointed. I set the book aside for almost a year, and only reread it at the beginning of this past summer. After re-reading it, ADWD is only behind ASOS for me in terms of the best in the series. I think part of my frustration when I read it for the first time was a result of how long I waited for the book to come out. I think that a lot of the vitriol towards AFFC and ADWD are a reflection of the frustrations fans of the series felt while waiting for the books to actually be released. I was lucky and I picked up the series only a couple of months before AFFC was released, so the wait was not as intolerable for me. However, the wait for ADWD was excruciating (and I cannot even imagine how bad it was for people who waited from ASOS --> ADWD), and I think it had an immense negative impact on my initial reading of the book. I don't know if this holds true for other people, or if it does for the people on Amazon, but that is my two cents on the issue.

[Michael Snow]

People get really negative really quickly when they're online and anonymous. There's a lot of hyperbole, too. Someone who loved the first books and didn't enjoy the last ones as much will often post a review saying that they hated it. Not true, they're just let down, and have trouble expressing their inner angst eloquently. One of the many problems with the way the internet works...

[Thlayli]

People get really negative really quickly when they're online and anonymous

That would explain some of the vitriol. But not all of it. Many people use aliases as a safeguard against internet stalkers. I've had two that I know of -- I recommend anyone posting on the internet to use a nickname. I haven't read all the reviewers posts on Amazon, but I'll bet some of the nasty ones used their real names.

Some people genuinely loved the books. Others couldn't stand it. Why try to explain it unless you ask the reviewers themselves? Go to Amazon. Say hello. There are some lonely people there who will respond.

[Mark Antony]

IDK, They were both really good imo.